LOLmodesty disagreement

[zcccrv]

Oh, wow.

Late to the mess I started with the Modesty fail thread. Since I was the one who posted all of the photos seen here I feel like I should be a part of this convesation as well.

I specifically (you can look it up in the original thread) didn't post a photo of a young looking Anna M holding a tube in a suggestive way. With all the other photos I had no problem because there were adults in each and every one, even if amongst minors.

Everyone who is old enough to know the implications of being "modest" is old enough to be put in a joke about modesty. Being modest has a lot more sexual innuendo to it than being an average, jeans and t-shirt wearing person.

Whoever is offended by the joke doesn't really get it. It's not about sexualizing, it's about snark on de-sexualizing. You can put boobs in as many tents as you like, guys are still gonna know that there's boobs in there. They are just harder to reach and thus perhaps more exciting.

I think modesty is in fact women using their "non-existant" sexual goods to achieve things. Just like some cute little vixen who pouts and smiles to men to get what she wants but less obvious. There's a definite "you know it's there" segment to it and I find both the modest and the cute little vixen woman to be demeaning to women in general (and feminism of course) with their sex conditioned attitude and communication.

The Wissmanns are fundie. That's all I can say about the subject. I'm not saying they aren't perfectly charming in person but I'm also not saying that about any other fundie we discuss. @mompom, it seems that you (and your husband) may have some other issues with FJ, apart from us snarking on your friends. It's just an impression I got.

[Guest Anonymous]

Clutches Pearls. "Oh, you've gone and hurt mah feelings! I'm going to have to pray that the looooord sends a firestorm of blessings upon you!" :)

Thanks, Thoughtful for being so thoughtful in your response. I appreciate it! And I could have PMed you first, but it didn't even occur to me. I wanted to state loudly and clearly what I thought and I was starting to freak out because I really don't want my friend to see it. (Or her son) I was kind of panicking honestly.

Out of curiosity, I'd be interested to know what exactly you were panicking about?

Was it (a) because the family that you know personally was being snarked about in what you thought to be an unacceptable way?

Or was it (b) because the family you know personally was being snarked about on a forum to which you belong?

I guess I am curious as to whether you are trying to protect the family themselves or your personal relationship/reputation with the family?

In order to protect (a), I'd have thought it would be better to alert THEM to the snark and the photo that caused it, in order to give them a chance to think a bit about what they put up on the www in future

In order to protect (b) I'd probably either not join a community that snarks on my friends, or at least, not let my friends know I belong.

Either way, I'd have thought it obvious that hand-slapping never goes down well on a snark board.

This kind of situation intrigues me generally because there seem to be quite a few members here who are real-life friends with some of the fundie royalty we snark on, eg there is a friend of the Maxwells who also posts regularly, and I wonder what the attraction of the board is in those circumstances.

[Mompom]

Out of curiosity, I'd be interested to know what exactly you were panicking about?

Was it (a) because the family that you know personally was being snarked about in what you thought to be an unacceptable way?

Or was it (b) because the family you know personally was being snarked about on a forum to which you belong?

I guess I am curious as to whether you are trying to protect the family themselves or your personal relationship/reputation with the family?

In order to protect (a), I'd have thought it would be better to alert THEM to the snark and the photo that caused it, in order to give them a chance to think a bit about what they put up on the www in future

In order to protect (b) I'd probably either not join a community that snarks on my friends, or at least, not let my friends know I belong.

Either way, I'd have thought it obvious that hand-slapping never goes down well on a snark board.

This kind of situation intrigues me generally because there seem to be quite a few members here who are real-life friends with some of the fundie royalty we snark on, eg there is a friend of the Maxwells who also posts regularly, and I wonder what the attraction of the board is in those circumstances.

Hmm, I was upset because I didn't want my friend to find her sons' pictures online like that. I'm friends with all kinds of people. Listen, she's given me a copy of TTUAC, I tore it to shreds. I told her I didn't agree with it and why. She was receptive. So yeah, they are definitely in fundy camp and must have been at an event with the Wissman's. I don't care if you snark on for fundieism... it's just the kids and even with kids I could see perhaps making fun of a public figure type of family because they are PUBLIC. But say, somebody's rude friend posts a picture of you or your kids at an event without asking you and then a bunch of other people put sexual comments on it... well it's the internet... it's going to be up for a long time. I'm not talking about the Wissmans as I don't even know them.

I'm friends with lots of people I disagree with. I mean all kinds. From strict Indian Hindus who send me incense (best incense ever) and email yoga postures for prayer to Buddhists who have me over for dinner to fundies who give me copies of Above Rubies, TTUAC, and Sprouted Prune Cake, lol to atheists who chat with me about Bill Maher and talk late into the night over barbecue and beer. I wouldn't join in a snark against my friend. I might talk about the dangers of their beliefs online (I think I might even have done that about this particular family), but I wouldn't make fun of them and I certainly wouldn't make fun of their children.

YES, I absolutely have a problem with some threads here. I usually ignore those threads and go to another one. I know people are going to be mean and I'm honestly fine with people just being themselves and saying what they like. I do think some people here are rude. I mean really rude under the guise of "calling out people on their evil beliefs". Right, because talking about someone's nasty cooking calls out their evil beliefs. :) I joined the snark board because I like snark! I love the LOLDoug thread and can't stand the Baylys! I think my snark street cred can stand up under scrutiny. :) I do think some people have trouble with what is simple human kindness, but usually if someone goes over people call them out on it, so over all I don't have a problem with FJ and come here every day and have for probably over a year!

There are a few things I think cross the line (stalking in real life unless it's to call CPS or something, snarking on kids inappropriately... make fun of funny curriculum or how people dress, not their privates or sexual stuff, and of course giving out people's addresses, which most acts like this are banned here anyway).

Sorry, this was a longwinded post. AnnieC were you at True Womanhood, Molly Aley's old site, or No Longer Quivering? Your name sounds familiar.

Edited a bit for attempted clarity!

[zcccrv]

There are a few things I think cross the line (stalking in real life unless it's to call CPS or something, snarking on kids inappropriately... make fun of funny curriculum or how people dress, not their privates or sexual stuff, and of course giving out people's addresses, which most acts like this are banned here anyway).

So me posting the photo was along those lines, that's what you're saying?

[demgirl]

I don't think I could be friends with someone who reads, utilizes and then hands out copies of To Train Up A Child. That's basically saying, "Yea! I think child abuse is great and I think you should look into it too!" Because anyone who reads the section on switching an infant with plumbing line who doesn't immediately close the book in disgust and contemplate burning it, isn't worth a fig in my eyes. The other stuff -- maybe there is room for discussion and debate. On that particular issue? I just don't think there is.

I'm not trying to tell you that you are somehow wrong for being friends with them... I just have trouble equating decent people with people who read TTUAC.

[MerryHappy]

Did you read my post on the dangers of "nice fundies"? You seem so caught up in the fact that since they are "nice" they aren't bad, which is far from the truth, and therefore we shouldn't snark them. I just don't believe that if they are fundies they are open-minded, you can't be both.

Agreed, FG.

[formergothardite]

Decent, nice, kind, loving, open-minded people don't hand out copies of TTUAC as a good parenting book. Period. And these people are sounding even more scary because their apparent "niceness" could not only lure people into a fundie lifestyle but also child abuse.

Haven't there been non-fundie royalty minors in the background of LOLDougs before? Do you think those should be removed also?

[contrary]

oh, cleve, you devil!

reminds me of an old joke: why are men so bad at math?

because all their lives, they've thought this (|-------------------------------|) was ten inches.

ar ar.

[thoughtful]

oh, cleve, you devil!

reminds me of an old joke: why are men so bad at math?

because all their lives, they've thought this (|-------------------------------|) was ten inches.

ar ar.

I always heard is as:

Why do women stink at parallel parking?

Because all their lives, men have been telling them that this (hold hands a few inches apart) is 10 inches!

(I like it because the set-up sounds like it's going to be mysogynistic, but then . . . :twisted: )

[luckylibrarian]

There are a few things I think cross the line (stalking in real life unless it's to call CPS or something, snarking on kids inappropriately... make fun of funny curriculum or how people dress, not their privates or sexual stuff, and of course giving out people's addresses, which most acts like this are banned here anyway).

[snip]

YES, I absolutely have a problem with some threads here. I usually ignore those threads and go to another one. I know people are going to be mean and I'm honestly fine with people just being themselves and saying what they like. I do think some people here are rude. I mean really rude under the guise of "calling out people on their evil beliefs". Right, because talking about someone's nasty cooking calls out their evil beliefs. :) I joined the snark board because I like snark! I love the LOLDoug thread and can't stand the Baylys! I think my snark street cred can stand up under scrutiny. :) I do think some people have trouble with what is simple human kindness, but usually if someone goes over people call them out on it, so over all I don't have a problem with FJ and come here every day and have for probably over a year!

No one here has ever stalked anyone. Snarked on public blogs, called CPS when there was very obvious abuse - yes. Stalking? No. I agree that posting comments about a young teen's body isn't right, but I think thoughtful and others made it pretty clear that the comments were directed at adults (or what they thought were adults.) It's an honest mistake, and that mistake was corrected. That should have been the end of it, but now you are saying that there is a whole list of other things that the board shouldn't snark about - including someone's cooking.

Here's the thing: We've had people complain about the comments about Lyndsie's teeth, the Maxwells' eyebrows, Josh's weight, Lydia's poor sewing, and now someone's cooking. You don't have a problem with snarking on someone's appearance, but other people do. I actually find snarking on someone's appearance waaaaay more offensive than snarking on their cooking - especially because in most cases, the person can't or isn't allowed to do something about their appearance. Cooking can improve; in many cases, appearance can't.

I think you are more upset that your friends were targets of snark. Hell, if I had a fundie friend that was snarked on, I would feel uncomfortable. Frankly, if your friend is handing out copies of TTUAC and promoting that lifestyle, then she and her husband deserve to be snarked on. People like them are exactly why this board exists. If they were my friends, I would be more concerned about the effect of TTUAC on their kids than a silly picture posted on the Internet.

I'm not sure what you mean by "simple human kindness," but I've seen a lot of it here. Underneath the snark, people here care about each other and the victims of this lifestyle. I would not extend any kindness towards the parents, who, more often than not, are the perpetrators of horrific abuse.

[Guest Anonymous]

AnnieC were you at True Womanhood, Molly Aley's old site, or No Longer Quivering? Your name sounds familiar.

I followed Molly Aley's blog 'adventuresinmercy' until it closed down, but I was posting under a different name (and quite rarely) then. I was a member at NLQ as anniec or something similar (I think I discovered NLQ via Molly's blog). Someone at NLQ once asked me if I had been a member of True Womanhood and I had never heard of it until then, so I am guessing that there is/was another variant of anniec being used by someone else there. I tend to use anniec with small letters, out of habit, because AnnieC's are all over the place and someone else usually gets the capitalised name first!

[Mompom]

No one here has ever stalked anyone. Snarked on public blogs, called CPS when there was very obvious abuse - yes. Stalking? No. I agree that posting comments about a young teen's body isn't right, but I think thoughtful and others made it pretty clear that the comments were directed at adults (or what they thought were adults.) It's an honest mistake, and that mistake was corrected. That should have been the end of it, but now you are saying that there is a whole list of other things that the board shouldn't snark about - including someone's cooking.

Here's the thing: We've had people complain about the comments about Lyndsie's teeth, the Maxwells' eyebrows, Josh's weight, Lydia's poor sewing, and now someone's cooking. You don't have a problem with snarking on someone's appearance, but other people do. I actually find snarking on someone's appearance waaaaay more offensive than snarking on their cooking - especially because in most cases, the person can't or isn't allowed to do something about their appearance. Cooking can improve; in many cases, appearance can't.

I think you are more upset that your friends were targets of snark. Hell, if I had a fundie friend that was snarked on, I would feel uncomfortable. Frankly, if your friend is handing out copies of TTUAC and promoting that lifestyle, then she and her husband deserve to be snarked on. People like them are exactly why this board exists. If they were my friends, I would be more concerned about the effect of TTUAC on their kids than a silly picture posted on the Internet.

I'm not sure what you mean by "simple human kindness," but I've seen a lot of it here. Underneath the snark, people here care about each other and the victims of this lifestyle. I would not extend any kindness towards the parents, who, more often than not, are the perpetrators of horrific abuse.

Thanks, I think you are understanding me! To clarify: I never said it wasn't okay to snark on someone's cooking. I just said, I didn't think it was nice or helpful in getting someone to stop being a fundy. I've snarked on it too. It's just part of the "fun" at Free Jinger. My goodness, I didn't say I thought I was nice. I thought the burrito post was absolutely hilarious! I'm Pro-snark! I promise!

MY POINT WAS: I don't agree with everything, but I'm cool with it. And sometimes I've felt bad about stuff I've said, so I'm certainly not Miss Manners or whatnot.

And in the old days one board ago? Two boards ago? There was two boards ago, right? I've been a lurker for awhile, but I don't remember now... I could be wrong.

Somebody DID stalk someone else and got called out on it. My point was, barring extreme things (which are already banned not trying to change the rules or anything!), I am cool with Free Jinger being a place to bitch and snark and laugh and be generous and kind and whatever. That was my point. Some people here are not nice. Some people here are amazingly wonderfully nice. That's the internet. We are all different. And we are all here for different purposes. I'm here to debrief from my childhood, my crazy cult, and yes, even some of the things my fundy friends (I have quite a few) do and say. Snark on the adults about sexual stuff and I'm right there with you. The kids, not so much. That's aaaaaaaallllll I'm saying! :)

Honestly. I promise! I'm not trying to cut anyone down, insult anyone, or anything! They way I meet these types of people is through natural living groups, conservation and preservation groups, or fringy homeschool groups, etc, where there are all types, fundies, weed smoking hippies, and yoga/soccer moms. I won't join a group that has a religious statement of faith, so I meet all types.

I think people think that if I think someone did something unkind intentionally or unintentionally, I think they are bad. I don't think there are bad people only bad behaviors. I believe all humans are basically good and that we all make mistakes. Some people make huge, horrible, public mistakes that hurt many people. Call them out! That's great. Just leave the kidlets privates and sexual connotations alone. I'm okay with differences here on FJ. That was my whole entire point! But I'm not being very clear I guess!

[Mompom]

I followed Molly Aley's blog 'adventuresinmercy' until it closed down, but I was posting under a different name (and quite rarely) then. I was a member at NLQ as anniec or something similar (I think I discovered NLQ via Molly's blog). Someone at NLQ once asked me if I had been a member of True Womanhood and I had never heard of it until then, so I am guessing that there is/was another variant of anniec being used by someone else there. I tend to use anniec with small letters, out of habit, because AnnieC's are all over the place and someone else usually gets the capitalised name first!

I miss Molly's blog so much!

[zcccrv]

Mompom, could you please leave a comment in the Modesty fail thread because that's where the photo emerged in the first place and I'm confused whether you object to this or not.

[Mompom]

Thanks, Thoughtful for starting a new thread! I need to learn how to caption photos...

[thoughtful]

Thanks, Thoughtful for starting a new thread! I need to learn how to caption photos...

You're welcome, and (for all who would like to join the fun):

1. right click on an image

2. click on "copy image location"

(possible steps 2a, b, etc., if needed -- save the image to your computer, open it with a picture editing tool and crop as you see fit)

3. go here: http://wigflip.com/roflbot/

4. paste the image location into the space under "start with a picture from the web" and click on "go" right next to it.

5. follow directions there, and play with size and location of caption until you are happy with it.

6. save to flikr or photobucket or some other online photo storage area

7. post to FJ!

[Guest Anonymous]

As my husband said, "Free Jingerites have gone too far. They've objectified the other side that they can't even imagine anymore what it would be like to be in their shoes." I agree. I love Free Jinger, but this is wrong. It breaks my heart for my friend who has done nothing but be a great friend to me in spite of our differences.

Anyone else having a little WTF moment at someone running to get their HUSBAND to slap our hands? Oh no, someone with a penis disapproves of what I'm doing on the internet! I better stop it right away! Seriously?

I do think some people here are rude. I mean really rude under the guise of "calling out people on their evil beliefs". Right, because talking about someone's nasty cooking calls out their evil beliefs. :) I joined the snark board because I like snark! I love the LOLDoug thread and can't stand the Baylys! I think my snark street cred can stand up under scrutiny. :) I do think some people have trouble with what is simple human kindness, but usually if someone goes over people call them out on it, so over all I don't have a problem with FJ and come here every day and have for probably over a year!

Well you're a huge hypocrite, aren't you? If you come here every day I'd venture to say you're contributing to the problem that your oh so manly husband thinks is just awful. There's a whole lot about you that isn't standing up to scrutiny right now. You want to be friendsies with everyone as long as they do what you want them to and you can be the arbiter of what's okay and what isn't.

I think everyone agreed with you about not snarking on minors, you could have handled that with a PM without flailing around slinging shit everywhere and running for your husband, but it's totally better this way. Now everyone knows that you choose fundies who hand out copies of child abuse manuals to be your dear friends.

**Edited because I was mistaken about which "nice" fundies Mompom is friends with.

[demgirl]

Anyone else having a little WTF moment at someone running to get their HUSBAND to slap our hands? Oh no, someone with a penis disapproves of what I'm doing on the internet! I better stop it right away! Seriously?

Well you're a huge hypocrite, aren't you? If you come here every day I'd venture to say you're contributing to the problem that your oh so manly husband thinks is just awful. There's a whole lot about you that isn't standing up to scrutiny right now. You want to be friendsies with everyone as long as they do what you want them to and you can be the arbiter of what's okay and what isn't.

I think everyone agreed with you about not snarking on minors, you could have handled that with a PM without flailing around slinging shit everywhere and running for your husband, but it's totally better this way. Now everyone knows that you choose fundies who hand out copies of child abuse manuals and mock people who aren't white to be your dear friends.

Just in the fairness category, because I think there was some confusion on this, it turns out that mompom isn't friends with the Wissemanns, who were the family that did the blackface. She's friends with a family that the Wissemann's went to a homeschool summer camp with. But yeah, the child abuse manual... not cool. As I said before, that's another of my litmus tests with friends. "Oh, you read TTUAC? Oh, you want to give out copies so people will use those methods? Yeah, well then, I don't need to be talking to you ever again. And I'm giving you the side eye b/c if I ever see you pull out some plumbing line, I will be on the phone to CPS so fast your head will spin."

[Guest Anonymous]

Thanks for the clarification, demgirl. I will edit my post to reflect.

[Lainey]

Anyone else having a little WTF moment at someone running to get their HUSBAND to slap our hands? Oh no, someone with a penis disapproves of what I'm doing on the internet! I better stop it right away! Seriously?

*raises hand* ME!!! Gosh, what would we do if we didn't have a man to tell us how we should behave?

We need a pearl-clutching smiley...

[Shirley MacLaine]

Anyone else having a little WTF moment at someone running to get their HUSBAND to slap our hands? Oh no, someone with a penis disapproves of what I'm doing on the internet! I better stop it right away! Seriously?

I know, right? Motherfucker's not my headship.

[demgirl]

My headship hates Free Jinger. Whenever I have it pulled up, he knocks the computer over so that it closes and has to be rebooted, which makes it less likely I will go back online. Then he yells at me to get up off the couch and go fix him some dinner. If I try to tell him FJ stories, he just walks away with a contemptuous look on his face and sometimes destroys my most valued personal possessions in retaliation. Damn cat.

[Mompom]

You all can write people off if you want to.

But I have had a friend who I supported even though she was married to an abusive, Christian Identity guy (that's one of the first fundie internet coups I had). When he dumped her for the leader's daughter, I was there for her. If my mom's group would have run away when I found out the truth years before, she would have only had the evil, racist, dark side fundies for friends. But because I'm here for women and kids, we stuck with her, knowing the truth of what she was involved with. And now, she's out, she's going to college and normalizing.

I'm so thankful for my friends that didn't abandon me to the fundie dark side. Now, I'm out and thankful for all my "normal" and "non-normal" friends.

I quoted my husband because I didn't want to take credit for a statement that I thought was profound. We talk about "dehumanizing women" here all the time. I thought he had a point that sometimes we cross the line into dehumanizing people ourselves. I don't give a damn if you agree with him or not. He's brilliant, well read, extremely successful, and a sincerely kind person who gets up all through the night and has for 12 years to deal with all kinds of kid issues... He's awesome and my best friend. We are a partnership and have been since before we were married. I think he's the best person on the planet, so sue me.

If I abandoned my friend because she read and liked TTUAC 4 years ago, who is she going to go to when her kids rebel or she realizes her mistake? Maybe since I was also "disciplined" in a similar way that TTUAC suggests I can be the kind of person who can understand where (or not, I'm not sure) she's coming from. I've never seen her spank her kids and she's never talked about it. In fact, I've only seen her listen to her kids and I mean REALLY LISTEN. They have started their own businesses and are (or at least seem to be) very happy kids. My parents were abandoned by the "normal" people and we became further isolated. I would have loved as a kid to be friends with people who played video games or who laughed and told jokes and got my parents to chilll out for awhile.

If I ever, ever saw anyone do anything to abuse a kid, I would be on the phone so fast to CPS, it would make your head spin. As a foster adoptive parent and formerly fundie "disciplined" kid, I get it.

You may choose to judge me or think what you like. I don't really need to defend myself here other than I think your interventions suck (run away) and really wouldn't help any kids who are being abused. In fact, if you think my friend is abusive (which apparently reading TTUAC makes you an automatic abuser) then you should be all over yourself freaking out over a picture of one of the allegedly abused kids being made fun of. Right?

And again, the Thoughtful and I made our peace. She was awesome and didn't realize he was underage and had been on another site and hadn't seen my post. I was freaking out because it seemed people were thinking it was okay, so posted multiple times.

Maybe I made a mountain out of a molehill, but I sincerely would like to never knowingly harm a kid.

[Brainsample]

Ahh... it's like a built in warning to avert your eyes to the ground. Hopefully as your eyes travel down they will also notice the conveniently placed measuring tape. NIKE! *Clutches pearls* (And by that I mean Debbi and Michael)

Can someone please explain to me why "NIKE" is important? Is that because it sounds a bit like "YIKES?"

(And thanks for the explanation of the measuring tape. I completely missed the phallus corollary. I pick up on more of the verbal stuff, but I still have to check on the Urban Dictionary to figure some of this stuff out since I'm now encroaching on the old fart category.)

[Shirley MacLaine]

He's brilliant, well read, extremely successful, and a sincerely kind person who gets up all through the night and has for 12 years to deal with all kinds of kid issues... He's awesome and my best friend. We are a partnership and have been since before we were married. I think he's the best person on the planet, so sue me.