Lori Alexander praises purity balls

[Hane]

In my Italian-Catholic upbringing, abstention from premarital sex was a Big Deal (for both sexes). It did not stop the parents from endorsing dating, getting a college education, and building a career.

It DEFINITELY didn't include any of this patriarchal "transfer of authority/hymen/heart" from Daddy to husband. We all were fully capable of keepin' it zipped without squicky emotional incest proms and pseudo wedding rings.

My daughter had some friends over last night, and they were admiring one of the girls' (catholic) purity ring that her father gave her for her birthday.

Edited to add this--emphasis mine. CATHOLIC PURITY RINGS ARE A THING NOW? I'm glad I got out when the getting was good!

Back in the Pleistocene, I was a virgin when I got married (1973, at age 20)--and I had a hell of a lot more freedom than these Official Christian[tm][/tm] girls do.

Fun fact: When I was about three, I expressed the desire to marry my father. My mother explained that, no, girls don't marry their fathers--that my father would "give me away" when I got married. I melted down at the very thought. Yes, my father did walk me down the aisle at both of my weddings, and did the same for my daughter (whose father had passed away), but I insisted that the wedding announcements read "The bride was escorted to the altar by her father/grandfather."

[latraviata]

In my Italian-Catholic upbringing, abstention from premarital sex was a Big Deal (for both sexes). It did not stop the parents from endorsing dating, getting a college education, and building a career.

It DEFINITELY didn't include any of this patriarchal "transfer of authority/hymen/heart" from Daddy to husband. We all were fully capable of keepin' it zipped without squicky emotional incest proms and pseudo wedding rings.

Yeah, back in the Pleistocene, I was a virgin when I got married (1973, at age 20)--and I had a hell of a lot more freedom than these Official Christian[TM][/TM girls do.

Fun fact]

Fortunately my father (1920-2003) had a very liberated view on sex. He was an atheist and my mother was a devout catholic.

He was the one who gave us daughters sex ed and told us, sex is wonderful provided it is consensual and let no man ever talk you into this when you don't want to and most certainly not if he blackmails you by threatening to break up the relationship or he will be in agonising pain and such nonsense. It is your body period.

One of my sisters had a miscarriage and came to my parents crying because her husband tried to force to have sex with her. My father had a man to man talk with him and apparantly it worked. It was the only time he interfered in a daughters sex life. Papa has passed away, but this particular son in law always speaks very fondly of the old gentleman who taught him a thing or two about respecting and treating women.

[salex]

:lol:

It is getting beautifully pathetic huh?

Oooh somebody said bare nekkid shoulders. CHANGE THE PHOTO QUICK!!!!!

If they are doing this, WHY? Why do they give a shit what we have to say , when every other person they have met in the history of the world (4000 women for Ken, and 4000 women for Lori) have thought they were brilliant. Why do they care about us,... I don't get it.

[Hane]

Fortunately my father (1920-2003) had a very liberated view on sex. He was an atheist and my mother was a devout catholic.

He was the one who gave us daughters sex ed and told us, sex is wonderful provided it is consensual and let no man ever talk you into this when you don't want to and most certainly not if he blackmails you by threatening to break up the relationship or he will be in agonising pain and such nonsense. It is your body period.

One of my sisters had a miscarriage and came to my parents crying because her husband tried to force to have sex with her. My father had a man to man talk with him and apparantly it worked. It was the only time he interfered in a daughters sex life. Papa has passed away, but this particular son in law always speaks very fondly of the old gentleman who taught him a thing or two about respecting and treating women.

Reminds me of my dad (1921-2009)! My mom used to leave sex education books and pamphlets around for me to read, but was timid about answering questions. Dad wasn't. He respected women, too, and they both gave me a lot of freedom.

[Closed Womb]

What is purity camp? I can't even imagine the types of conversations they have around the campfire.

This is my question, too. And can they even do the things kids do at camp? Wanna ride horses? Nope, hymen. Climb the tree? Nope, gotta protect my hymen. Bikes? Gymnastics? Nope, hymen.

Sneak out to the boys' purity camp? Now, there's an idea...

[Miss M]

This is my question, too. And can they even do the things kids do at camp? Wanna ride horses? Nope, hymen. Climb the tree? Nope, gotta protect my hymen. Bikes? Gymnastics? Nope, hymen.

Sneak out to the boys' purity camp? Now, there's an idea...

I got sent off to "church camp" for two weeks every summer from 13 through 17, there was a boys side and a girls side, swimming, games the whole bit...wanna know where I had sex the first time...yup Church Camp!!

[DGayle]

My daughter had some friends over last night, and they were admiring one of the girls' (catholic) purity ring that her father gave her for her birthday. She says "you guys should get one" one girl says "I'm a lesbian. I'm not the target audience" another says "I don't think my purity is my father's business" my daughter says"I'm not waiting for marriage. That doesn't make me impure". The other 3 girls look horrified, and say "you can't say that in front of your mom". I said "why not? We're very open about these things. Her self worth has nothing to do with what has or has not been in her vagina. And neither does yours" they were all shocked, and said their parents would be really mad if they had sex. I don't get why. I'd only be mad if she was stupid about it.

This is how we're parenting. Teaching birth control and autonomy and smart decisions. I am a believer in the best way to prevent unplanned pregnancy is to not make our children feel like they have to sneak around and be too embarrassed to ask for birth control. Teach them and be open.

And fuck anyone who says a girl's value is based on how many people have been allowed into her vagina.

[Toothfairy]

Purity camp?? :wtf: purity balls are creepy. There are other ways to teach your kids about purity. And just because your saved yourself until marriage doesn't make you better than anyone else.

[Toothfairy]

In my Italian-Catholic upbringing, abstention from premarital sex was a Big Deal (for both sexes). It did not stop the parents from endorsing dating, getting a college education, and building a career.

It DEFINITELY didn't include any of this patriarchal "transfer of authority/hymen/heart" from Daddy to husband. We all were fully capable of keepin' it zipped without squicky emotional incest proms and pseudo wedding rings.

Edited to add this--emphasis mine. CATHOLIC PURITY RINGS ARE A THING NOW? I'm glad I got out when the getting was good!

Back in the Pleistocene, I was a virgin when I got married (1973, at age 20)--and I had a hell of a lot more freedom than these Official Christian[tm][/tm] girls do.

Fun fact: When I was about three, I expressed the desire to marry my father. My mother explained that, no, girls don't marry their fathers--that my father would "give me away" when I got married. I melted down at the very thought. Yes, my father did walk me down the aisle at both of my weddings, and did the same for my daughter

That's so sweet! Your mother is exactly right. The whole purity pledge to your father is creepy.

Yep. Purity rings are the thing now. My older kids have a purity necklace and bracelet. I too saved myself for marriage but at least I could make my own choices to an extent. I went to catholic school,church,girl scouts,college, played on sports teams.

[DGayle]

It sounds like your sister wanted help, and your dad gave it. That's not interfering. That's being a daddy helping his daughter who came to him in tears. I'm so glad your brother-in-law saw his errors and rectified it. That's a sign of a good man too. It's hard to acknowledge some mistakes, but he did it, and changed.

[SunnyAndrsn]

I have no issue with waiting until marriage. I do have an issue with making a public pledge about it. In terms of my Christian faith, it's similar to this parable:

9 Then he told this story to some who boasted of their virtue and scorned everyone else:

10 “Two men went to the Temple to pray. One was a proud, self-righteous Pharisee, and the other a cheating tax collector. 11 The proud Pharisee ‘prayed’ this prayer: ‘Thank God, I am not a sinner like everyone else, especially like that tax collector over there! For I never cheat, I don’t commit adultery, 12 I go without food twice a week, and I give to God a tenth of everything I earn.’

13 “But the corrupt tax collector stood at a distance and dared not even lift his eyes to heaven as he prayed, but beat upon his chest in sorrow, exclaiming, ‘God, be merciful to me, a sinner.’ 14 I tell you, this sinner, not the Pharisee, returned home forgiven! For the proud shall be humbled, but the humble shall be honored.â€

In other words, why all the bragging about the hymen? If someone feels the need to make a pledge to stay a virgin until marriage, go for it, but keep it between you and God.

[RosyDaisy]

Lori can suck a big fat one. If she thinks the way to combat the hypersexualisation of girls and women is to hypersexualise them the other way, she is even more stupid than I thought she was. There is nothing noble about being the 'keeper of your daughter's maidenhood'. It is gross and creepy how much these dads concern themselves with their daughter's vaginas. Stats show that kids who do the whole purity thing are just as likely to have sex as those who don't, but they are less likely to use protection. I would rather my kid have sex and be safe than have sex with guilt and no protection. I would also prefer that my husband does not concern himself with her vagina on a daily basis.

This isn't about faith, this is about control and power.

This! QFT!

[darkplumaged]

I didn't wait fore marriage. No emotional scars, never been pregnant, and no STDs. I'm pretty sure I'm not the only one. THEY ARE MISCHARACTERIZING ME!!!!!!!eleventy!!! LOL

I was going to say... I'm pregnant now for the first time after more than five years of marriage, no STDs, no emotional scars (except for being sort of grossed out whenever I think about my first partner). I must have been doing it wrong.

[latraviata]

He is a sweetheart, at the time he was very young.

[FloraKitty35]

Purity Ball sounds so twink.

[latraviata]

Reminds me of my dad (1921-2009)! My mom used to leave sex education books and pamphlets around for me to read, but was timid about answering questions. Dad wasn't. He respected women, too, and they both gave me a lot of freedom.

Yes, it was the same with us.

Once I asked her, men are having a cumshot, do women have that too and she answered very emphatically raising her voice, YES OF COURSE!!!!!!!!! :lol: :lol:

[GolightlyGrrl]

I missed this news item last week. I was too busy getting drunk on pear mimosas and discussing celebrity cock at my friend's "Welcome Spring Party."

[sea_gale]

Parading young girls' sexuality in public like this is so fucking gross. At that age, I would rather have plucked out my eyes than attend an event to celebrate my putative sex life. With my dad, no less.

Thinking about this squickiness is making me seriously appreciate my dad, though.

[VVV]

All I get out of them is that they are a modified version of some pretty serious debutante balls mixed with home school prom. In most of the deb balls, the virginity it hinted at/assumed, but not talked about as much (white dresses,e tc)

NO weirder than this shit.... pbs.org/independentlens/las-marthas/film.html

texasmonthly.com/story/%E2%80%9Cbeldades%E2%80%9D-ball/page/0/1

From Laredo TX where he only girls who are guaranteed the privilege of making their debuts at the Society of Martha Washington ball are the daughters of the members. Granddaughters and nieces can also be presented, but because daughters take precedence, and because only so many six-foot-wide hoopskirts can squeeze onto the civic center stage, grandmothers and aunts have been known to occasionally engage in ruthless politicking. The cost of a dress—never mind the outlay for the parties that a girl’s parents host in the months before the ball or the jewelry or the private dance lessons or the photographer or the wardrobe required for the myriad debutante events—is a well-kept secret, since both Gutierrez and her clients value discretion, but a custom, hand-beaded gown is rumored to run from $20,000 to $40,000 and higher. When it comes to presenting a daughter to society, many families partake in an old practice: “ echar la casa por la ventana†—literally, “to throw the house out the window,†or to spare no expense. The ball has become a theater for conspicuous consumption; as Laredo’s upper class has been enriched over the past decade by NAFTA, a colonial gown has become the ultimate status symbol. “The dresses didn’t used to be as elaborate,†observed a former debutante who asked not to be named. “They’ve started to look more Marie Antoinette than Martha Washington.†(one article I read sicussed the girls curtysing to some man with their heads touching the floor, as they were welcomed into society

Or, in San Antonio, where the "Court" always sports heavy beaded dresses with a new theme each year. I keep threatening to buy a ticket to the coronation/dance someday, but never do, lol.

.mysanantonio.com/fiesta/slideshow/The-Court-of-Nature-s-Tapestry-61040.php

I've played in the pit orchestra for Coronation for years, and all I can say is that there is pretty much no common ground between Coronation and a purity ball. Coronation is ALL about being wealthy and socially well-connected, not necessarily in that order, with ancestry from the correct part of the globe. In any given year, a number of the "Duchesses" being presented are drunk--in one memorable recent event, we were seriously worried that one particular Duchess was going to fall off the causeway and into the pit as she made her way onto the stage (she didn't).

Edited to add that Coronation isn't a debutante ball and there is no dance connected with it. It is pageantry, pure and simple, and all a ticket entitles you to do is sit in the audience and watch the various attempts at a full-court curtsey. Most if not all of the "Duchesses" were debutantes a few years prior--they're typically either college juniors or seniors, or very recently out of school. Also, to add to my "drunk" comment above, some of my colleagues still talk about the year that one of the Duchesses was so drunk that she actually threw up on stage. That was before my time, just barely.

[salex]

I've played in the pit orchestra for Coronation for years, and all I can say is that there is pretty much no common ground between Coronation and a purity ball. Coronation is ALL about being wealthy and socially well-connected, not necessarily in that order, with ancestry from the correct part of the globe. In any given year, a number of the "Duchesses" being presented are drunk--in one memorable recent event, we were seriously worried that one particular Duchess was going to fall off the causeway and into the pit as she made her way onto the stage (she didn't).

Edited to add that Coronation isn't a debutante ball and there is no dance connected with it. It is pageantry, pure and simple, and all a ticket entitles you to do is sit in the audience and watch the various attempts at a full-court curtsey. Most if not all of the "Duchesses" were debutantes a few years prior--they're typically either college juniors or seniors, or very recently out of school. Also, to add to my "drunk" comment above, some of my colleagues still talk about the year that one of the Duchesses was so drunk that she actually threw up on stage. That was before my time, just barely.

Thanks--I thought the coronation was part of the longer fiesta and there were lots of parties involved. My point is that I suspect the purity balls are based on things like this and debutante balls, only "christianized." It still involves parading women around--in the past the regular debutante party meant "look, fresh crop of marriageable maidens" and they were supposed to be embarrassed if they weren't engaged in a year.

[gilora]

I missed this news item last week. I was too busy getting drunk on pear mimosas and discussing celebrity cock at my friend's "Welcome Spring Party."

May I PLEASE come to the next "Welcome Spring Party"? :dance:

[Emme]

If they are doing this, WHY? Why do they give a shit what we have to say , when every other person they have met in the history of the world (4000 women for Ken, and 4000 women for Lori) have thought they were brilliant. Why do they care about us,... I don't get it.

Probably because on some deep level she knows our comments are valid.

[Arete]

Look, in the past virginity before marriage was a big deal for more than just theological reasons. Pregnancy outside marriage was a DISASTER for a young woman. Men usually wouldn't want to raise another man's child, abortions were dangerous, if your pregnancy became public your education was over, it impacted the quality of your marriage prospects and therefore your lifelong security..... I don't blame parents in 1900 for emphasizing keeping their daughters virgins for as long as possible, because their daughters had far more to lose than their sons from the results of sex with no reliable birth control.

Christians did not invent the importance of female virginity. It has played a role in a lot of diverse societies that are far older than 2,000 years. No mystery, men wanted guarantees their heirs were actually their heirs, and pregnancy outside a legal arrangement was often economic suicide for a woman. We have reliable methods of preventing pregnancy now. A woman does not take her entire future into her hands by having sex now.

What makes the modern purity ball or purity movement so vile is it now links a girl's virginity with "romancing" by her father. It is moving way to close to a firm boundary that should never be crossed between parents and children.

Face it, emotional incest is actually to clean a term. This is pedophilic or euphebophilic incest. Watch the expressions on some of those fathers. They look at their daughters the way husbands or boyfriends look when they are in love.

I think I am about to dry heave. :(

[YPestis]

To add to the discussion of the virginity's importance in the past, I wanted to point out that marriage used to be an economic arrangement and joining of two families. Before the days of DNA testing and birth control, maintaining virginity was quite important for everyone involved. For a woman to give birth to one man's child, only to marry another man, is tantamount to financial fraud. Virginity ensured inheritance and allowed for two families to legitimately join as one. Wars have been started over proper succession and inheritance disputes. Controlling a girl's reproduction had a very practical purpose and implications for an entire family.

It's only in modern times that I find prizing virginity so outdated. Yes, monogamy is good and all but now it's nobody's business but the girl and guy in the relationship. We have reliable birth control and DNA tests to ensure that a father is raising his biological child. We no longer need to enforce virginity. Fundies are trying to revert back to traditional values for the sake of returning to old values. They have to make up reasons for valuing things that have lost it's value in modern society. They invent "purity balls" to make virginity palpable to girls who will have no practical reasons for it. They try to pull a strawman by teaching children that the only option to purity is promiscuity, which will led to disease, abortions and out of wedlock births (and hell). It's how they maintain the importance of virginity.

The problem is societal rules have lessened the importance of maintaining virginity. People marry later, which makes it harder to remain virgins until marriage. There are DNA tests to ensure that fathers will continue to provide support to their children. There is abortion as final resort for unwanted pregnancies. There's also the changing nature of marriage, which went from being a union of two families to a union of two people. No longer are family fortunes entwined with virginity. If adultery or fornication occurs, it affects the couple, not the extended family, and rarely affects the family fortune.

I agree that purity balls have an element of emotional incest to it. I'm not as quickened out about it as others, mostly because young girls do tend to think of their daddies as stand-ins for future husbands. I think many fundie girls are infantilized to such an extent that they continue to think that way well into their teens. I think purity balls themselves hypersexualizes teenage girls, as it puts focus on their sexuality rather than treating them as a whole person. It's ironic that a movement devoted to combating the sexualizing of young girls ends up doing the exact same thing.

[lilith]

It was common in many rural communities in the past for most brides to be pregnant at the alter. When there was minimal property to be transferred, knowing a woman could produce children (future labourers) was much more important than her virginity or sometimes even the paternity of her first baby. When there isn't really an estate to consider, better raise what may possibly be another man's child and exploit that child's labor, in the knowledge that your wife was fertile and more children were highly likely to come, than to marry a virgin and risk farming your patch alone forever and having nobody to care for you in your old age if the bride ended up being infertile.

Look at rural marriage registers from all over Europe in the middle and early modern ages. These often undernourished peasants weren't having dozens of healthy premies. I have read that the same custom was common in rural china, though I haven't looked at any primary sources to back that up.