Interesting Article on Premarital Sex

[debrand]

I haven't read the author's original article yet but he sounds as if he is aiming for a more nuanced response to Christian sexuality.

He printed a letter from a reader who waited to have sex until marriage. Although he seems to love his wife, they are no longer in a sexual relationship but have remained friends.

So what the heck has that trauma taught me about sexual ethics?

1. That the world fetishes (as in ascribing magical powers to a mundate object) sex, but then so does the church. If there’s any wisdom in the worldly teenage rush to rid oneself of virginity, it’s that it unmasks the object and robs it of some of its power. Meanwhile teenage Christian guys struggle with porn because sex is mysterious and powerful, and God cares just as much about sexual “purity†as he does about people getting tortured and killed or going hungry or without shelter, apparently.

2. The message of the Christian sexual ethic shouldn’t be “save sex for marriage and everything will be great,†because it won’t.

3. Virginity doesn’t have the moral value attached to it that we think it should have. If that really weighs into how you value a person, you’re not even seeing that person. In fact, your view of other persons is depraved.

4. No one ever talks to Christian youth about how lame sex in marriage can be. (See also 1 and 2) Sure it can be great, but for many, many people at some greater or lesser time, because of stress/kids/sickness/etc. it isn’t. No one ever talks to them about how or why affairs happen. I think it’s cruel to let someone go about building their life on completely unrealistic expectations because no one cares to mention to them that the story might be different.

5. Masturbation is not a sin. For men, or at least me, sexual release is a biological need, the equivalent of taking a dump, and just as necessary. And you’re just as unpleasant to be around if you really need to do it but don’t.

6. Whatever Jesus meant by “if a man looks at a woman with lustful intent…†has gotten blown out of all proportion by a society, in church and outside of it, obsessed with sex. Then again, sometimes I just read it and think â€REALLY? So my wife should be just as upset as if I look at a woman as she passes on the street, as if I was to enter into a clandestine relationship with her? You sure about that, Jesus?“ I don’t know how to read that without feeling like the implications seem ridiculous, so perhaps the ones blowing it out of proportion are right in a sense. In which case, I reject it as incongruous with life in this world.

I was going to disagree with him about point four but then I realized that some people simply don't realize that life events like pregnancy, sickness, depression, money problems etc can cause a dip in some people's sexual desire. If asked, I would rate my own married sex as wonderful but I haven't been taught that I am owed sex by my husband. When he is too tired, sick or just not in the mood, I don't feel as if he is denying me love or affection.

Number five I can't speak for all women but I find that masturbation relieves tension.

[Firiel]

I haven't read the author's original article yet but he sounds as if he is aiming for a more nuanced response to Christian sexuality.

He printed a letter from a reader who waited to have sex until marriage. Although he seems to love his wife, they are no longer in a sexual relationship but have remained friends.

I was going to disagree with him about point four but then I realized that some people simply don't realize that life events like pregnancy, sickness, depression, money problems etc can cause a dip in some people's sexual desire. If asked, I would rate my own married sex as wonderful but I haven't been taught that I am owed sex by my husband. When he is too tired, sick or just not in the mood, I don't feel as if he is denying me love or affection.

Number five I can't speak for all women but I find that masturbation relieves tension.

Plus the fact that for many Christian couples, there is an extra hurdle to sexual satisfaction as they overcome all the "Sex is evil!" fodder they were taught. Sex in relationships (of all sorts) can be difficult and cause conflict... the problem is that Christians don't realize that it's normal to have periodic (or even ongoing) sexual issues in marriage. They are fed the lie that if you wait for marriage, you will automatically have a red-hot, passionate, toe-curling sex life. If that doesn't happen, they feel cheated instead of realizing that sex, like all parts of a relationship, is something that needs to be worked on, nurtured, and won't always be satisfying.

[keen23]

Link please? Where's this coming from? Because I'd like to read it.

[Firiel]

This has been reposted a lot, but I think this is where it came from:

patheos.com/blogs/tonyjones/2013/03/01/premarital-sex-maybe-its-not-so-bad/

[debrand]

Link please? Where's this coming from? Because I'd like to read it.

Doh! :doh: Sorry, I had a brain fart. I blame the combination of allergies and not very effective medication that I am taking. :embarrassed:

patheos.com/blogs/tonyjones/2013/03/01/premarital-sex-maybe-its-not-so-bad/

[2xx1xy1JD]

My comments on his points:

1. I'd like to suggest that everyone discuss sexual activity as a behavior, not a status. So, instead of talking about BEING a virgin, talk about deciding whether or not to engage in sexual activity, and how one behaves ethically and responsibly if you do decide to do so. It's an ongoing process - the fact that someone has sex once doesn't mean that they don't have to continue to make decisions about sexual activity for the rest of their lives.

From there, you can move on to a discussion about how God may not be hung up on a sexual status, but does care a great deal about whether we conduct our sexual activity in an ethical and responsible manner, since it's part of not treating other people like shit (see Golden Rule and Love Thy Neighbor) and making sure that you don't bring children into this world when you are not prepared to love and care for them.

2 and 4. Yes, there need to be realistic expectations, and also some good, frank information about how sexual responses work in men and women and how to deal with common issues. People should know that some basic ability to communicate and to love and respect your partner goes a long way, because your partner is not a mind reader and everybody is different, and sometimes you need to be able to say, "wow, it feels great when you do THAT" or "ouch, that's painful".

Finally, people need to know that even if marital sex hits a rough patch, it is usually fixable and temporary, esp. if both spouses are cooperative and able to get the help they need. For example, the dry-as-the-Sahara-pregnant-or-breastfeeding-for-years-totally-exhausted stage really does come to an end. Really.

General point: I'm not sure how much premarital sex, or lack thereof, had to do with the trauma. It sounds like it was about the toxic relationship between his parents and his wife, and how that affected the start of their marriage.

Also - I'm wondering if they need a different marriage counselor and/or sex therapist. 3.5 years sounds like an awfully long time to be rehashing old wounds and allowing a marriage to deteriorate, instead of taking steps to make it better.

[keen23]

Doh! :doh: Sorry, I had a brain fart. I blame the combination of allergies and not very effective medication that I am taking. :embarrassed:

patheos.com/blogs/tonyjones/2013/03/01/premarital-sex-maybe-its-not-so-bad/

:D It happens to the best of us!

[louisa05]

I sat through more chapel speakers talking about sex and marriage in the six years I taught at a Christian high school than I care to remember. With basically a Catholic background (I went to Catholic secondary schools), I remember always being uncomfortable with the messages because they boiled down to one thing: the purpose of marriage is having sex.

It was never said directly and if anyone had challenged the speakers about it, they would have said absolutely not and spouted all the fundy/fundy-lite doctrines of marriage being about sacrifice and becoming better Christians and having babies (although QF had not taken hold of anyone in the school that I am aware of). But that part doesn't make it any better, really. It just makes the message even worse because it becomes this: Marriage is all about sacrificing everything for another person and it will be generally hard and make you generally unhappy but that is how God is going to make you better and more holy; but sex is great!

So there you have it, marriage sucks, but sex is the pay off for tolerating it. And what happens if your marriage lands in this writer's number 4 where it isn't so good? You've got nothing. You were sold false promises. And no one told you to be patient and it will probably get better (because we all know it is rare for sex to be great in the beginning). And no one told you that your partner can be your friend and companion and you can work that and everything else out together. You were basically told this person is here to force you to be a better Christian and be your sex partner. And if you are more fundy than fundy-lite, a heaping pile of gender rules came with it all which makes everything worse. But if you even have a sexual thought before marriage, you are the worst of sinners, so don't do that either.

I know a lot of people who were burned by this whole mess of messages. I know of many who graduated from that school who married and divorced very young and have a lot of scars to show for it. One young woman was married and divorced twice before she turned 21. A friend of mine who is an alum of that school can tell you the long and sad story of her sister-in-law who had a horrible time early in her marriage due to the mixed messages about sex and the mess that all the gender rules made in her head (the whole love and respect thing really messed her up...her husband needed love, imagine that). Another friend raised with these ideas spent her entire engagement twisted into knots because she was sexually attracted to her now husband and had been taught that she was not supposed to be until the pastor said "I now pronounce you...".

These teachings are a big giant mess and the answer is not to just say never mind, premarital sex is okay. The teachings about marriage itself are still toxic. The ideas about gender roles stick people in boxes and the wife- submitting homemaker, husband- leading provider is not the only problematic one out there. The whole idea that women and men are fundamentally and automatically different due to gender/biology and have different emotional needs is possibly even worse that that (and much more popular among evangelicals thus more widespread). And teaching people that marriage is difficult, about SACRIFICE, and about God "remaking" you or "molding" you or "refining" you with "fire" (I've heard all of those) doesn't help. How can you be emotionally intimate with someone who is there to refine you in a fire? Most sane people are going to put up some walls with that threat hanging over them.

Sorry for the ramble...This topic irritates the crap out of me. Possibly because I have too many friends left from those days who keep preaching it at me to "improve" my marriage. We've been married for five years, for the first year or two, I heard it all. the. time. It has finally tapered off a bit.

[snuggles911]

I attended a fundamentalist church where we were taught that once you got married, sex would be like "walking into a candy store and getting to taste everything you wanted, whenever you wanted."

My husband and I kissed before marriage, but no French kissing and certainly no touching. I had high expectations when we set off for our Caribbean honeymoon.

It was a big disappointment, has gotten even worse over the past 15 years, and has greatly affected my faith. My husband was very hesitant at first and has never been excited about sex except for when we were trying to conceive our children. The trip to the mythical candy store just never happened.

I was too embarrassed to talk to the older women at my church. When I spoke to my friends they couldn't relate. Most had husbands who were perpetually horny.

My husband has refused to talk about his hang ups with me and won't see a therapist. I've talked to a therapist, which has helped me to feel better about myself, but without my husband's participation, our sex life is unlikely to improve.

I've struggled with a sense of being cheated. I followed all of the church's rules and didn't get the prize I'd been promised. I know that's a reflection of spiritual immaturity on my part, but I can't shake the sense of hurt and disappointment.

My oldest children are teens. I'm not sure whether to encourage them to wait (we are still Christians, but have left the fundamentalist church) or to let nature take its course in which case they will probably experiment and figure out if they're sexually compatible before their weddings.

[Firiel]

I attended a fundamentalist church where we were taught that once you got married, sex would be like "walking into a candy store and getting to taste everything you wanted, whenever you wanted."

My husband and I kissed before marriage, but no French kissing and certainly no touching. I had high expectations when we set off for our Caribbean honeymoon.

It was a big disappointment, has gotten even worse over the past 15 years, and has greatly affected my faith. My husband was very hesitant at first and has never been excited about sex except for when we were trying to conceive our children. The trip to the mythical candy store just never happened.

I was too embarrassed to talk to the older women at my church. When I spoke to my friends they couldn't relate. Most had husbands who were perpetually horny.

My husband has refused to talk about his hang ups with me and won't see a therapist. I've talked to a therapist, which has helped me to feel better about myself, but without my husband's participation, our sex life is unlikely to improve.

I've struggled with a sense of being cheated. I followed all of the church's rules and didn't get the prize I'd been promised. I know that's a reflection of spiritual immaturity on my part, but I can't shake the sense of hurt and disappointment.

My oldest children are teens. I'm not sure whether to encourage them to wait (we are still Christians, but have left the fundamentalist church) or to let nature take its course in which case they will probably experiment and figure out if they're sexually compatible before their weddings.

I faced a similar problem with my ex-husband. Sex was hard. It hurt. I think hormonal birth control affected my mood and sex drive. I wasn't as attracted to him as I should have been to a spouse, but how was I to know? I'd never gone farther than kissing anyone else, and we stayed above-the-belt until the wedding. He was upset that things weren't fine and dandy right away which kind of created a sexual anxiety for me. I was willing to get help, but he wanted someone better in bed, so he left me. I feel cheated that I did everything right and was punished for it.

I think sexually incompatible Christians end up getting married a lot because if you aren't longing for each other while dating/engaged, you are help up as the pure, chaste, ideal couple. Platonic dating relationships are encouraged, so you are unlikely to feel like something is amiss if you don't want to rip your SO's clothes off-- in fact, not being attracted to him/her becomes a point of pride.

[louisa05]

I attended a fundamentalist church where we were taught that once you got married, sex would be like "walking into a candy store and getting to taste everything you wanted, whenever you wanted."

My husband and I kissed before marriage, but no French kissing and certainly no touching. I had high expectations when we set off for our Caribbean honeymoon.

It was a big disappointment, has gotten even worse over the past 15 years, and has greatly affected my faith. My husband was very hesitant at first and has never been excited about sex except for when we were trying to conceive our children. The trip to the mythical candy store just never happened.

I was too embarrassed to talk to the older women at my church. When I spoke to my friends they couldn't relate. Most had husbands who were perpetually horny.

My husband has refused to talk about his hang ups with me and won't see a therapist. I've talked to a therapist, which has helped me to feel better about myself, but without my husband's participation, our sex life is unlikely to improve.

I've struggled with a sense of being cheated. I followed all of the church's rules and didn't get the prize I'd been promised. I know that's a reflection of spiritual immaturity on my part, but I can't shake the sense of hurt and disappointment.

My oldest children are teens. I'm not sure whether to encourage them to wait (we are still Christians, but have left the fundamentalist church) or to let nature take its course in which case they will probably experiment and figure out if they're sexually compatible before their weddings.

I think that is an issue for a lot of people raised in fundamentalist or evangelical Christianity. Even those that are not prosperity gospel basically send the message that if you follow all the rules, you'll get everything you want. Suffering and struggling are punishment for sins. It doesn't just apply to sex and marriage, either. I always intellectually knew that wasn't true, but I really struggled with it in my life anyway. Especially because I was surrounded at the Christian school with people who would say it outright--can't pay your bills? There must be a hidden sin you need to deal with. (Or it could have been the fact that they paid poverty wages). Respiratory allergies and illnesses? God is punishing you for something. (Absolutely had nothing to do with their building having a mold problem...). I still struggle with it. I am underemployed; my mother has lost part of her vision, my father has stage iv cancer, my husband is being laid off soon...I know this is all just life, but those people's voices still intrude in the back of my head and say "hmm...what did you do wrong?".

[2xx1xy1JD]

FYI - I'm posting a link to this blog about a woman who was a virgin at marriage, remained one for a long time due to intense pain, and finally managed to get the right treatment and have a good sex life.

unconsummated.blogspot.ca/

As a result of their ordeal, she has a ton of resources for dealing with painful sex.

I found it interesting that she didn't blame lack of premarital sex for her problems. I got the sense that since it was a physical issue, it would have been a problem whether or not the sex came before or after marriage, but being married meant that her husband was committed to her and to the LOOOONG process of figuring out the whole problem. She does, however, mention some of the stress that the marriage endured along the way.

Question - are fundies really not supposed to be physically attracted to each other before marriage? That just sounds so odd. I can understand some of the reasoning behind "don't do anything physical, because you'll be tempted to have one thing lead to another", but that sort of assumes that there is a basic desire to go further.

[louisa05]

FYI - I'm posting a link to this blog about a woman who was a virgin at marriage, remained one for a long time due to intense pain, and finally managed to get the right treatment and have a good sex life.

unconsummated.blogspot.ca/

As a result of their ordeal, she has a ton of resources for dealing with painful sex.

I found it interesting that she didn't blame lack of premarital sex for her problems. I got the sense that since it was a physical issue, it would have been a problem whether or not the sex came before or after marriage, but being married meant that her husband was committed to her and to the LOOOONG process of figuring out the whole problem. She does, however, mention some of the stress that the marriage endured along the way.

Question - are fundies really not supposed to be physically attracted to each other before marriage? That just sounds so odd. I can understand some of the reasoning behind "don't do anything physical, because you'll be tempted to have one thing lead to another", but that sort of assumes that there is a basic desire to go further.

Being attracted to someone you are not married to is considered lust. Taking that idea to its extreme gets you to where one of my best friends was with her husband prior to marriage--incredibly guilty for having those feelings prior to the vows being said. Or to the place where you choose someone you feel no attraction to and get some super Christian points until it all goes bad after the wedding.

[Firiel]

FYI - I'm posting a link to this blog about a woman who was a virgin at marriage, remained one for a long time due to intense pain, and finally managed to get the right treatment and have a good sex life.

unconsummated.blogspot.ca/

As a result of their ordeal, she has a ton of resources for dealing with painful sex.

I found it interesting that she didn't blame lack of premarital sex for her problems. I got the sense that since it was a physical issue, it would have been a problem whether or not the sex came before or after marriage, but being married meant that her husband was committed to her and to the LOOOONG process of figuring out the whole problem. She does, however, mention some of the stress that the marriage endured along the way.

Question - are fundies really not supposed to be physically attracted to each other before marriage? That just sounds so odd. I can understand some of the reasoning behind "don't do anything physical, because you'll be tempted to have one thing lead to another", but that sort of assumes that there is a basic desire to go further.

So, I think I should clarify that I believe waiting for marriage can work. The problem is that evangelical Christians are sold the lie that because they waited, sex will be AMAZING. When it's not, they are more disappointed than the average virgin who doesn't get the rose-petals, simultaneous orgasm. I think certain Christians feel entitled to good sex because they waited and might (like my ex) leave when that doesn't happen. Some people are assholes about stuff like that, but it's a hell of a lot more trouble to discover that after getting married.

About physical attraction-- this has been what I've seen/experienced in evangelical Christianity (I'd hesitate to even call it fundie lite): you should be attracted to the other person, but not lust after them. So, you WANT to think they are beautiful or handsome, but wanting to fuck them is more problematic (though different couples see it differently). I once saw a guy ask his girlfriend to go change her pants because they were too tight and were tempting him. Maybe attraction is good, but arousal is bad? I don't know. It really depends on the people and the church and the culture surrounding the couple.

[louisa05]

So, I think I should clarify that I believe waiting for marriage can work. The problem is that evangelical Christians are sold the lie that because they waited, sex will be AMAZING. When it's not, they are more disappointed than the average virgin who doesn't get the rose-petals, simultaneous orgasm. I think certain Christians feel entitled to good sex because they waited and might (like my ex) leave when that doesn't happen. Some people are assholes about stuff like that, but it's a hell of a lot more trouble to discover that after getting married.

About physical attraction-- this has been what I've seen/experienced in evangelical Christianity (I'd hesitate to even call it fundie lite): you should be attracted to the other person, but not lust after them. So, you WANT to think they are beautiful or handsome, but wanting to fuck them is more problematic (though different couples see it differently). I once saw a guy ask his girlfriend to go change her pants because they were too tight and were tempting him. Maybe attraction is good, but arousal is bad? I don't know. It really depends on the people and the church and the culture surrounding the couple.

Some churches put a ton of emphasis on the idea that marriage does not require compatibility, companionship, love or attraction. It just needs two people committed to the same doctrines/faith ideas and God will automatically make it work and the love, attraction, compatibility, companionship will all follow the wedding vows. It is very close to the ideas about courtship--you can date, but you should only be looking at the person's faith and theological views and if they believe the same things about marriage as you. I attended an evangelical church in college that taught that in their (very small) college group and to high school kids. Put Jesus first and the rest will be fine. My friend who was guilty about being attracted to her husband prior to marriage soaked all that up and is big on the "marriage takes three" thing. She gave us a plaque with a saying about that for a wedding present--add Jesus as the third and nothing will ever go wrong.

[RosyDaisy]

#6---Context, context, context! Finding someone who isn't your spouse attractive does not = lust. Lust in this context is an intense uncontrollable sexual desire and passion. It is not a passing attraction.

[Bookworm]

So, I think I should clarify that I believe waiting for marriage can work. The problem is that evangelical Christians are sold the lie that because they waited, sex will be AMAZING. When it's not, they are more disappointed than the average virgin who doesn't get the rose-petals, simultaneous orgasm. I think certain Christians feel entitled to good sex because they waited and might (like my ex) leave when that doesn't happen. Some people are assholes about stuff like that, but it's a hell of a lot more trouble to discover that after getting married.

About physical attraction-- this has been what I've seen/experienced in evangelical Christianity (I'd hesitate to even call it fundie lite): you should be attracted to the other person, but not lust after them. So, you WANT to think they are beautiful or handsome, but wanting to fuck them is more problematic (though different couples see it differently). I once saw a guy ask his girlfriend to go change her pants because they were too tight and were tempting him. Maybe attraction is good, but arousal is bad? I don't know. It really depends on the people and the church and the culture surrounding the couple.

As a fundie being raised in fundie lite churches and being pretty isolated from watching normal people my age dating and figuring stuff out, it took me a long time to figure out the difference between sexual attraction and knowing mentally that someone is hot. I was lucky in that I got to sneak-read a lot of romance books even as a teen, which gave me something of a template to look for, despite how unrealistic a lot of the books were. It still took a lot of effort getting over the repression in real life interactions, but it was totally worth it. I'm still figuring out the whole attraction+life goals compatibility+personality+character bucket of soup in dating, but I'm glad I found out that the feelings described in love songs and poems and stories are real and do exist for me. There are a lot of people I know, including in my family, who followed the evangelical rules and have run into the same problems being described in this thread. Sometimes they just live an underwhelming life of boredom, sometimes things have turned out much worse.

[Toothfairy]

I grew up in a religious home. I was taught sex before marriage was a sin. My parents compared sex to a toothbrush. You wouldn't want 4 different people using your toothbrush. Once one person uses a brand new toothbrush they are the only ones who use that toothbrush. It's theirs to keep. However if 4 different people use that toothbrush you wouldn't want the toothbrush anymore because it's used and no longer new. My church even compared virginity to a juice box. A juice box can only be poked once to drink the juice. Once the juice is gone nobody else's wants that juice. So I was taught that saving myself for marriage was the best gift I could give my husband and the best gift a husband could give his wife.My husband also grew up in a religious home even more stricter then mine. My church group and parents told me my wedding night would be extra special because both my husband and I saved ourselves for each other. I did have high expectations because everyone kept telling me how wonderful it would be. It was actually a huge disappointment because I was in pain the first couple of times I tried. I didn't know what to expect so I just dealt with it. I see nothing wrong with waiting til marriage. I'm teaching my kids to wait, but it shouldn't be such a big of deal. I think some people have such high expectations that when they do marry and have sex it's a huge let down. They rush into things just to get off. You should never get married just to only have sex. You should get married because you're in love with that person not what's between their legs.

[slh12280]

Well, part of the problem is that they encourage people to get married so young to fulfill traditional views and prevent premarital sex. Then later they figure out they never really knew each other and the problems start. I had sex outside of marriage, even though I said I never would and it still sucked in the beginning, would it have been any better had I been married? I think not. Sometimes people just need to be exposed to reality. Why not focus on things like respect, communication, and emotional intimacy? Those are just as important, if not more so, than religious beliefs.

[bananacat]

I know this is written from a man's POV, but does it not occur to him that most women also masturbate, and that's fine too? I would call it a need for myself as much as for any man.

[apple1]

I know this is written from a man's POV...

And that is my problem with the quote in the OP. There seems to be no sense at all that it might have been appropriate to talk from any point of view other than a (stereotypical) male POV. (also notice my word "stereotypical")

I guess I think that quote is promoting nearly as many problems as it is supposed to be dispelling.

[2xx1xy1JD]

I guess I shouldn't be surprised, but I had no idea the extent of this special virgin magic wedding night myth.

For folks committed to waiting for marriage/commitment, I'd suggest the following speech instead:

From a physical POV, sex is like any other physical skill. Just like you didn't instantly know how to ride a bike or ski down a hill, you will probably take a bit of time to figure this out. That's ok, because just like those other activities, you will get better and it will seem less awkward and more natural to you each time, and once you figure it out, it can be awesome.

Sex with the one you love isn't just physical, though. Unlike a hook-up, this is part of a larger picture of really knowing and being intimate with your partner. A big part of making it work isn't technique, but communication and love. Each of you need to tune into how the other one is feeling, notice their responses, and really pay attention to other one. You can take your time and enjoy exploring this new aspect of life without pressure, because you know that you are committed to each other and will have lots of time to work out the physical part. Also, if you need a bit of help, there are a bunch of resources - you aren't the first people to discover sex, there are good guides to the basics, and lots of information that can help you deal with any bumps in the road.

[PennySycamore]

I recall an article in some pastoral magazine many years ago that said you absolutely should not have any sort of sexual feelings or desire before marriage. I realized then that was totally fucked up. Don't you need a spark of sexual desire to want to get married? That's how it's worked throughout most of human history.

[twinmama]

My husband was very hesitant at first and has never been excited about sex except for when we were trying to conceive our children.

Ha, we were just the opposite. The trying to conceive totally killed any sex drive either of us had. Maybe we are just too contrary. "That calendar is telling us we have to do it tonight... well I don't wanna!" Then infertility strikes, plays with your head, ugh. None of that is any good for a sex life. Ended up with kids via IVF.

I remember growing up in the Catholic church and feeling like I would probably DIE of embarrassment at my wedding because everyone would know I was going to have sex that night. Of course, by the time I got married I'd already had sex and was an atheist. And we didn't have sex that night any way (way, way too tired).

One of the things I find most frightening about it all is the idea that its better to "just get married" and have sex than to have premarital sex. Doesn't say much about how you value marriage if you think you should "just do it" so you can have sex.

[louisa05]

Ha, we were just the opposite. The trying to conceive totally killed any sex drive either of us had. Maybe we are just too contrary. "That calendar is telling us we have to do it tonight... well I don't wanna!" Then infertility strikes, plays with your head, ugh. None of that is any good for a sex life. Ended up with kids via IVF.

I remember growing up in the Catholic church and feeling like I would probably DIE of embarrassment at my wedding because everyone would know I was going to have sex that night. Of course, by the time I got married I'd already had sex and was an atheist. And we didn't have sex that night any way (way, way too tired).

One of the things I find most frightening about it all is the idea that its better to "just get married" and have sex than to have premarital sex. Doesn't say much about how you value marriage if you think you should "just do it" so you can have sex.

The staff was made to read a book at the Christian school I taught at that suggested that Christian schools be open to allowing married students to attend (most do not allow it) because early marriage is the best way to prevent premarital sex. Our administrators at the time disagreed and, in fact, had told a family that wanted their daughter to marry her boyfriend at the end of his senior year and be married for her own senior year that she not be allowed back if she were married. She had gone to school there since kindergarten and decided to postpone marriage for a year. And, predictably, broke up with the boyfriend in September. I think the admins saved her, the boy and their families a world of hurt.