Documentary about parents' rights

[BlackHawk]

In a perfect world, I would agree with you. But take the problem of teen pregnancy. The truth is that a lot of teens do not believe they can go to their parents with that info. As a mother, would I want to know? Yes, but if I haven't earned my child's trust with years of unconditional love, then I would only have myself to blame if the kid wouldn't come to me. Kids usually have damn good reasons for not wanting parents to know certain things.

If a girl is having sex, or believes that she will in the immediate future, she may not be able to ask her mother for birth control. Many mothers (and fathers) would lose their minds at the very thought and the shaming would be epic. But the teen knows what's really going on in her life, and she should be able to acquire that contraception without parental consent, in my view.

I see both your and Rosa's points. I guess I just worry too much, lol. I will admit that the type of 14 year old I was, I wouldn't have told my parents anything... I suppose though, I had the shitty parents.

And Rosa, here the school is not allowed to call the parents over allegations of abuse. Any allegations of abuse must be reported to CPS within the first hour of the allegations being made. You aren't allowed to call the home first. If you do call the home before CPS you are subject to fines and jail time if the parents are convicted. I know that rule very well as a mandated reporter for the state through child care. If you even SUSPECT something you are legally required to call. IT sucks for some cases, but it's the law and I would assume most caregivers (teacher or otherwise) follow said rule.

Is a 14 year old emotionally ready to make that call? That's what I keep coming back to. Is a 14 year old emotionally ready to make the call for all their own care without parent involvement? I don't know the answer, which is why I ask the question. 14 is the height of hormones in a lot of people, I just worry.

I will say I don't have children YET, so I don't have a 14 yr old. I don't know how "normal" teenagers (who aren't fundie or fundie lite) are during that age range. I may just have to go volunteer at the highschool and meet 14 yr olds and see... I just worry if they are emotionally ready to make all their own decisions regarding medical care.

[liltwinstar]

Oh, I agree that most 14 year olds shouldn't be making medical decisions by themselves...but if they were pregnant, or had an STD, or something like that, they would need other adults in their lives besides their parents - either to help them confront parents, to help make a good decision, or to just be supportive. Most (good, non-abusive) parents would probably be grateful for a social worker or doctor or nurse who would give factual, non-judgement based info on whatever disease/condition was going on.

Also, doctors aren't stupid. For example, when I was a teenager I really starteled/scared a cat we had and the cat bit me and it became infected, etc. When we went to the doc, he said that normally he had to report "vicious animals" but since I had explained that I had really starteled her and it was not her normal pattern of behavior, he didn't report it. He could tell that it was a one-off thing, not a pattern. So I know doctors have to report abuse, but at the same time, they have professional judgement - they can probably tell when a broken arm has been caused by a playground fall v. a parent being nasty (at least most of the time).

Making the doctor, or the school teacher, or whoever your enemy is a really bad way to go about things. Like the guy who was so freaked out by his kid reading a book about gay families - maybe he could have had a rational discussion with the teacher about it, suggested another kid's book that had, say, a stay-at-home mom (or something), worked WITH the teacher and the school, rather than against them, etc.

(also I have a BIG FAT problem with Mike Farris and all of HSLDA. They bill themselves as supporters of homeschooling rights, for which they charge a yearly fee to family who are scared of "governmental intrusion". Then, it seems to me that becuase there aren't really that many "homeschooling rights" cases, they take the money and defend cases/people that have nothing to do with homeschooling and everything to do with furthering their Dominionist agenda, such as the Michael New case, where a (homeschooled) soldier refused to wear a UN uniform as a UN peacekeeper, saying that it was "unconstitutional" for him to have to do so, since the UN is "unconstitutional." HSLDA was *all over* that one.)

[SquirrelySquirrel]

Fundies won't be satisfied until they can have complete legal control over their children until they are married.

Not to mention control over the gays, liberals, feminists, and anyone who isn't a bible thumping xtian. Hypocrites, the whole lot of them.

[Rosa]

Oh yeah, the privacy/mandatory reporting stuff has gotten way, way better since I was in high school (1988-1992, for the record). I think it had been legally changing before that but the little towns we lived in, it took a while to trickle down to.

Also, I think I knew a higher than average portion of self-supporting teens, because of the urban funnel effect for abused/runaway/abandoned teens - we were in a small town, but it was the county seat and bigger than all the surrounding towns, so all the kids who couldn't be at home ended up there. I knew a number of teens living on their own, with or without babies, when I was in high school - and it is outrageous that they had to get parental permission for health care, a bank account (my mom pressured the president of a local bank branch to let an independent teen friend of mine get an account so she could deposit her paychecks - otherwise she would have had to go to the pawn shop every week for cash), documentation to apply to college, etc. Why should a kid living in a shelter, or with someone else's family, or in their own apartment paying rent, have to funnel everything through the adults who spawned her?

But the privacy stuff is the nightmare of the HSLDA anyway - that's why they have so much literature on defending yourself from the evils of social services.

[debrand]

The part where the boy sues his parents over going to church was fictional and supposed to incite sympathy for the parents, but I felt for the kid. The lawyer said that the boy was depressed and isolated. Most parents would look at why their church was causing their son to be depressed, not insist on attending services three times a week.

Apparently, they don't see depression and isolation as serious problems

edited for clarity

[BlackHawk]

Oh yeah, the privacy/mandatory reporting stuff has gotten way, way better since I was in high school (1988-1992, for the record). I think it had been legally changing before that but the little towns we lived in, it took a while to trickle down to.

Also, I think I knew a higher than average portion of self-supporting teens, because of the urban funnel effect for abused/runaway/abandoned teens - we were in a small town, but it was the county seat and bigger than all the surrounding towns, so all the kids who couldn't be at home ended up there. I knew a number of teens living on their own, with or without babies, when I was in high school - and it is outrageous that they had to get parental permission for health care, a bank account (my mom pressured the president of a local bank branch to let an independent teen friend of mine get an account so she could deposit her paychecks - otherwise she would have had to go to the pawn shop every week for cash), documentation to apply to college, etc. Why should a kid living in a shelter, or with someone else's family, or in their own apartment paying rent, have to funnel everything through the adults who spawned her?

But the privacy stuff is the nightmare of the HSLDA anyway - that's why they have so much literature on defending yourself from the evils of social services.

I do agree with this on a personal account. I was out on my own at 17 (almost 18) and couldn't apply for student loans or anything because I wasn't 24 or something. I had to pay for college without government help because they require your parents income and my parents weren't giving me that (requirement of the FAFSA). (And to this day I'm still paying back personal loans from a degree I couldn't finish because I couldn't afford it any longer.) I agree that things need to be changed, I suppose I got hung up on the 14 year old aspect of things.

I'll be honest and say I don't know a lot about HSLDA. I really have only heard of them from a few fundie blogs I read and never looking in to who they were.

[Rosa]

Blackhawk, that makes me really mad - the financial aid office at your college should have helped you.

Back 1992, a school counselor convinced someone from the local college to go with a friend of mine out to her dad's house and see that he actually was willing to threaten them with guns rather than give up his financial details, and then the financial aid office helped her apply for Stafford loans without the information. (She actually was an at-home teen, living with her mom - but her dad was a paranoid rural survivalist).

[CanadianHippie]

This. In Ontario (I'm not sure what the laws are in other provinces, but I imagine they are similar). Doctors only have a right to tell a minor's parents about his/her situation if he/she has threatened to do harm to his/herself or others. The same applies to psychology and other fields. I think this is how it should be. There were a number of things I would have lied to my doctor about to avoid getting into trouble.

These fundies and other similarly minded people seem to cling to the idea that their children should have no autonomy at all.

I believe it is a federal law. I know it's a law that I had to inform some of my friends about because their parents didn't want them to know.

[forever ago]

Canada has ratified the Convention on the Rights of the Child; the United States hasn't. I don't know if Canada changed its laws to comply with the Convention when they signed, or if the rights enumerated were already in Canadian law (they are pretty basic.)

The US didn't sign because we have the death penalty for minors in several states, and that's prohibited by the Convention.

Other rights:

* the right to a relationship with living parents, even noncustodial ones

* legal representation - custody & abuse issues must consider the child's interest, not just parents rights

* protection from abuse & exploitation, especially prostitution

* the right to privacy - including religious, sexual, and medical privacy.

It's that right to privacy, especially medical records, that so many American parents get hung up on.

Actually I believe the US abolished the death penalty for minors a few years ago, so now it's not legal in any state. On the other hand, the US still hasn't ratified it. Too many fucking fundies and wackjobs here for that to happen...

[Rosa]

Well, I just looked it up and you're right! 2005, Roper v. Simmons. That's good to know!

[JesusFightClub]

The other country which comes to mind which hasn't ratified it is Somalia which hasn't a functioning government. Unless you count al Shabaab and they are a bit busy right now...

[dawn9476]

Fear mongering about the UN is a major far right wing talking point. Last week, John McCain was confronted by a crazy who was afraid of the UN coming and taking away farms from Americans. They are for the US to stop giving money to the UN if they recognize the State of Palestine. I believe fear mongering against the UN is also something that Glenn Beck does a lot.

[Rosa]

Is there some movement to ratify the Convention right now? Check this out - Youngmom at Permission to Live is getting hassled by her mom about it, too.

http://ayoungmomsmusings.blogspot.com/2 ... art-2.html

[CanadianHippie]

I think there is usually a group somewhere in the US trying to get the Convention ratified.

The US has also not ratified the Convention on the Elimination of All Forms of Discrimination Against Women.