Spinoff - Laura Shanley, freebirth "fundie"

[penguinagogo]

I think Laura Shanleys father is a medical doctor of some kind possibly even OB?

reading her early meanderings online before the more professional website and new age schtick it really screamed 'Daddy issues'

Off to give the old wayback machine a try to see why I remember this!

[Artemis]

Despite being only 5' 1" and quite narrow built, apparently I also have birthing hips. And the babies both flew out.

When I was first pregnant I asked my doctor about the possibility of a homebirth with midwife attendant. He was fine with it but said he'd like me to find a doctor at the maternity hospital with whom he could partner, so one or other of them was around over my due date to cover if needed as well as the midwife. He also asked me to see an obstetrician for an internal pelvic exam. The obstetrician said I had a pelvis you could drive a London bus through, and agreed to be my part-cover doctor for the birth.

My dear, supportive GP doctor, and a great midwife were the rest of the team. As it happened, when I went into labour, I had three contractions twenty minutes apart. The fourth was five minutes later, at which point I rang the midwife. By the time she got there, I was 10cm, and going into transition, so she made me breathe so much gas and air I couldn't co-ordinate anything to push, and just sat there bumping gently up and down and giggling, while she rang the other midwife and the doctor and told them to get a move on. 'Don't bother about red traffic lights,' is how my husband said she phrased it. 'Just get here quick!'

My daughter was born after a 2hr 45 minute labour, having passed meconium. I had an 8 minute second stage and a small episiotomy, but she had an apgar of 9, and was fine after a little suctioning. The point is, I could have had a much worse outcome - she could have been born dead, having aspirated meconium, or alternatively, there could have been an unsuspected problem. The other point is that if I'd waited until the contractions were closer together than 20 minutes, I wouldn't have had time to get to the hospital anyway through rush hour traffic in greater London.

In my second pregnancy, it was agreed I would probably be better off with a home birth, as the babies were quite small, and I'd had a quick first labour, so we arranged midwife and doctor cover as before. Second daughter was born after an hour and a half, with a 6 minute second stage. Again, if I'd waited for 'regular' contractions, I would not have got to hospital in time.

I mention this not to say that my way was better, but to say the one thing that seems predictable about birth is its unpredictability. I was extraordinarily fortunate, although fast labours are not all joy . . . as my pelvic floor can attest. That doesn't mean I might not have been fortunate, and it doesn't mean I think homebirths are a good thing. My homebirths proved to be right for me, and, in fact, to be a sensible decision given the speed of my labours.

I really can't understand women who get stabby about the choices other people make, providing that they make choices that do not endanger the child. I also think that freebirthing is totally stupid, because it does endanger the child. (Being English, my midwives were qualified, and I had GP attendance, although admittedly, in the second labour he turned up about five minutes too late and rather disappointed he hadn't been there for the birth.)

Hellena was bloody lucky. She could easily not be next time. I was bloody lucky too, but there were no guarantees. There never are any guarantees, even in hospitals.

[WonderingInWA]

First labor was 13 hours and 7 minutes from first contraction to birth. Second labor was 4 hours and 15 minutes from first to birth. Both unmedicated (medication slows down the labor and if you can endure it, it means it's over faster!). Those fast labors are hard, but it's important work and that's what Laura Shanley talks about -- the importance of what your body is doing (and I focused on her words throughout both my births).

And birth is predictably unpredictable. And so many women want to tell horror stories of their own births to women newly pregnant, which I think is just awful. All the warnings about the pain, blah, blah, blah. So when I had what I considered surprisingly easy births, I shouted my birth stories from the mountaintops just to encourage women to listen to the positivie stories!

[ladidah]

I know almost nothing about giving birth. Is it possible to have an all natural birth in the hospital?

No, of course not. In a hospital birth (and a home birth, for that matter), decently educated birth attendants will wash their hands, use gloves as appropriate, and generally keep up multiple unnatural hygienic practices that will prevent you and your baby from dying of the type of natural infections that have killed many women and newborns over the years. And that's not to mention stitches for bad tears and plenty of other unnatural interventions that can aid postpartum women.

(But if you're interested in a med-free birth, then yes, you can have that in the hospital if you plan carefully and are lucky enough not to run into the kinds of complications that necessitate more heavy-duty interventions.)

[August]

First labor was 13 hours and 7 minutes from first contraction to birth. Second labor was 4 hours and 15 minutes from first to birth. Both unmedicated (medication slows down the labor and if you can endure it, it means it's over faster!). Those fast labors are hard, but it's important work and that's what Laura Shanley talks about -- the importance of what your body is doing (and I focused on her words throughout both my births).

And birth is predictably unpredictable. And so many women want to tell horror stories of their own births to women newly pregnant, which I think is just awful. All the warnings about the pain, blah, blah, blah. So when I had what I considered surprisingly easy births, I shouted my birth stories from the mountaintops just to encourage women to listen to the positivie stories!

Precipitous births aren't good for the baby.

I am very angry at the people who lied about how much birth hurts. I wish more people had been honest instead of calling it "hard work".

[WonderingInWA]

Precipitous births aren't good for the baby.

I am very angry at the people who lied about how much birth hurts. I wish more people had been honest instead of calling it "hard work".

How are precipitous births not good for the baby? Are you suggesting women who are progressing quickly through labor should be given medication to slow it? If so, why?

I've never lied about how much birth hurts. It does hurt. Transition sucks. But it's over fast. And if you go into birth thinking you aren't going to have any pain, that's wrong. I just believe if you can adjust mentally to why it hurts and get above the pain to realize each contraction you are one step closer to being done, it helps. And every birth is different and everyone's pain tolerance is different. I just chose to hope I wasn't one of the women that was going to go on and on afterward about how much it sucked. Because it was over far faster than I had been told it would so I was thrilled. I have always told my birth stories positively and honestly.

[Artemis]

August wrote:

precipitous births aren't good for the baby

What about some statistics, to back up such a universal and generic statement?

It's not a competition - as in 'my quick birth trumps your lengthy birth, my gas and air pain relief trumps your epidural'.

No-one needs to get defensive about their experience - everyone's experience is different, as is everyone's pain threshold. Hell, I hauled myself around on crutches, grimly and with many curses, with a completely broken ischial ramus for three weeks before finally accepting it wasn't the muscle damage I thought it was, and getting an x-ray. Doesn't mean there's anything specially brave about that - it just means I have a very high pain threshold. After that and the cracked metatarsal I walked on for a couple of weeks thinking I'd just bruised my foot by dropping the Larousse History of France on it corner down, I now know to get an x-ray even if I'm not sure what I've done. High pain thresholds aren't a good thing either: I now have an imperfectly aligned set bone in my pelvic girdle, and a slight limp. Like Einstein said, stupidity is one of the few things that has no limits.

Some lengthy births cause babies distress. Some precipitous births cause babies distress. In my case, despite the (very painful) after-effects of a very quick first labour, I was glad it was a precipitous labour since getting her out quickly was important - in fact when my (meconium-stained) waters broke, the midwives were both keen on making it even more precipitous, hence the episiotomy. A lengthy labour would not have been good for her - in my case.

It's really not possible to make generic statements about birth that are true in all times and all places, is it? Well, other than the very obvious stuff like 'antisepsis is a good thing', and 'any birth that ends with a live, healthy baby and a healthy live mother is a good outcome'.

I think Helena is lucky she didn't suffer from obstetric fistula, after such a prolonged labour, with what seems to have been uterine inertia in the middle. Luckier than many young women in the developing world (some of them child or early teen brides) who have no choice about toughing it out without medical help during two and three day labours, and end up with a hole between the rectum and the vagina, where continuously pressurised tissue has become necrotic.

She's lucky she did not, (please excuse my bluntness) end up with shit coming through a rectal fistula and into her vagina every time she defecates, or urine dribbling continuously out of her vagina where she has a urethral fistula. (After which of course, in the case of the aforesaid young women, not only is their health ruined, but their marriages, and their lives, since no-one wants them any more.)

First world problems, eh? Being able to choose to run the risk of that happening, secure in the knowledge that if, by chance, you do screw it up, a surgeon will be able to put it right.

[docmom]

Actually precipitous deliveries may have significant adverse effects on the fetus:

Adverse perinatal outcomes from precipitous labor may be increased considerably for several reasons. The tumultuous uterine contractions, often with negligible intervals of relaxation, prevent appropriate uterine blood flow and fetal oxygenation. Resistance of the birth canal may rarely cause intracranial trauma. Acker and colleagues (1988) reported that Erb or Duchenne brachial palsy was associated with such labors in a third of cases (see Chap. 29, Brachial Plexopathy).

Williams Obstetrics Chapter 20

Mothers are also more likely to hemorrhage as uternie atony is more common. While some babies do need to come fast, in general birth takes hours for a reason. That being said, there's no evidence that anything can slow down a precipitous delivery so it's important that if you suspect it, you go quickly to a medical center.

[Cran]

Your labor went wrong!(Too fast, too long, not natural enough)

You're feeding your child wrong! (Breastfeeding in public is gross! Formula hurts your child's health!)

You're raising your child wrong! (Raise them with authority! No, give them freedom! Make them do things! Don't make them do things!)

You're making wrong eduactional choices for your child! (Home-schooling is only for brainwashing! Public eduction is only for brainwashing!)

Your body after childbirth is wrong! (Stretch marks! Breasts not perky enough! Gained too much weight! Not fit enough! Not well-groomed enough!)

Your life choices are wrong! (Stupid housewife! Heartless career women!)

YOU ARE WRONG, WOMAN! A FUCKING LIVING FAILURE!

Women are really mean to each other, aren't they? You should think there's enough to fight against in a patriarchal society with all these kinder-gardener's "I'm better than you"-stuff.

[2xx1xy1JD]

Re expectations:

My only advice to expectant mothers would be to be prepared for anything, and to realize that real life doesn't always go according to plan.

My kids were all breach, and I ended up with 3 c-sections. My sister wanted an epidural, but ended up without it (low platelets the first time, 2nd baby arrived within minutes of her getting to the hospital). You can control how you react to a given situation and what decisions you make, but you can't actually control everything in nature.

[Confused_by_religion]

So...there is a really good reason why female average life expectancy used to about 40 to 50 years in early modern Europe.

Women died in droves in pregnancy and childbirth.

Male and female babies died in droves in their first year of life. And if they survived their first year,they had a good chance of dying in their childhood.

This is "nature's way" if we let it.

I do not intend to die from an infected root of a tooth in my mouth. I do not intend to wait until my I die from a burst appendix. When travelling to the Tropics, I do not plan on waiting until I get malaria. If I break my foot, I am not going to lay on the floor and starve or drag myself forward on crutches. When pregnant, I am not going to wait until the baby's shoulder gets stuck somewhere in my pelvis and then die an agonizing death (and the baby too, of course).

Nature's way is: get born, procreate early, die soon.

Thanks, but no thanks.

I'd rather take advantage of medical and scientific progress.

[ILoveJellybeans]

Yeah, the most important thing about childbirth is not whether you had a natural birth or a c section, or whether you ended up having a c section when you wanted a natural birth...all that matters is the baby you get at the end of it :)

[Confused_by_religion]

Yeah, the most important thing about childbirth is not whether you had a natural birth or a c section, or whether you ended up having a c section when you wanted a natural birth...all that matters is the baby you get at the end of it :)

So true!

I can remember being pregnant and reading dozens of books on pregnancy and childbirth - which, funnily enough, happens without giving you too many options anyway. You step on the birth roller coaster and off you go, the body takes over and the brain spends the next couples of hours going "Wait, what?" and "Hell, is that supposed to happen?" or "Can I get it to stop somehow? Or hurry up?".

I wish I had read more books on anything from dealing with sleep deprivation to potty training - there, you have a choice, and you have many different options. I wish I'd spent more time thinking about that than about how to breathe along the contractions.

[sandberry]

Yeah, the most important thing about childbirth is not whether you had a natural birth or a c section, or whether you ended up having a c section when you wanted a natural birth...all that matters is the baby you get at the end of it :)

I think it is about more than that. I have seen too many women who had traumatic births told they should just get over it because they've got a healthy baby and that sucks. Women deserve more than that. They deserve respectful care which is centered on their needs and protects both their physical and mental health as well as ensuring they have as healthy as possible baby at the end.

Some women will make choices that are statistically risky and not based on the evidence (unassisted birthing, low risk birth with an obstetrician as lead professional), the rest of us might not choose that but as long as those women are fully informed of the risks and they feel that is the right choice for them then that is what counts.

I read 'Unassisted Childbirth' after I was convinced this was the way I would go. It put me off if anything and now I would not ever UC, but the reason unassisted childbirth has taken off is because respectful homebirth is a choice for too few women, there is a lack of respect for individual autonomy in healthcare that pushes women into making a choice they perhaps would not otherwise make. I don't think we can judge women for choosing freebirth unless there is universal access to free or low cost healthcare which is centered around women's own choices. Far from all UC'ers are as 'interesting' as Laura Shanley, most of them are pretty mainstream making the only choice they feel they can make. Some get sucked in by the ideology and some shared it to begin with but many would make other choices if they could.

[2xx1xy1JD]

I think it is about more than that. I have seen too many women who had traumatic births told they should just get over it because they've got a healthy baby and that sucks. Women deserve more than that. They deserve respectful care which is centered on their needs and protects both their physical and mental health as well as ensuring they have as healthy as possible baby at the end.

Some women will make choices that are statistically risky and not based on the evidence (unassisted birthing, low risk birth with an obstetrician as lead professional), the rest of us might not choose that but as long as those women are fully informed of the risks and they feel that is the right choice for them then that is what counts.

I read 'Unassisted Childbirth' after I was convinced this was the way I would go. It put me off if anything and now I would not ever UC, but the reason unassisted childbirth has taken off is because respectful homebirth is a choice for too few women, there is a lack of respect for individual autonomy in healthcare that pushes women into making a choice they perhaps would not otherwise make. I don't think we can judge women for choosing freebirth unless there is universal access to free or low cost healthcare which is centered around women's own choices. Far from all UC'ers are as 'interesting' as Laura Shanley, most of them are pretty mainstream making the only choice they feel they can make. Some get sucked in by the ideology and some shared it to begin with but many would make other choices if they could.

I'd say that the well-being of the baby AND MOTHER is the ultimate goal.

I also agree that respect for women's right to make choices and have autonomy over their bodies is essential, even if some would make choices that I might consider foolish. To me, that's a basic component of my support for reproductive freedom.

I do know of women who considered UC, not because they were as delusional as Shanley, but because they were so displeased with their local options. There is something to be said for having fully funded and fully regulated midwives, and allowing them to do low-risk home births.

I'll also say that having a feeling of being respected and in control to the extent possible is important. Yes, in the long run, a bad day or two pales in comparison to the lifelong results of a healthy baby and healthy mother, but that's not to say that it doesn't matter. I will say that I felt quite positive about my first 2 c-sections, where I was given options and allowed to do things as naturally as possible despite the surgery. I was less thrilled with my 3rd c-section, where I wasn't given a choice to attempt vaginal birth and where the hospital messed up a few things (like not giving me oxygen, not sewing me up properly so that I wasn't still bleeding, not allowing me to hold the baby right away, etc.).

[Talitha Cumi]

August wrote:

What about some statistics, to back up such a universal and generic statement?

It's not a competition - as in 'my quick birth trumps your lengthy birth, my gas and air pain relief trumps your epidural'.

No-one needs to get defensive about their experience - everyone's experience is different, as is everyone's pain threshold. Hell, I hauled myself around on crutches, grimly and with many curses, with a completely broken ischial ramus for three weeks before finally accepting it wasn't the muscle damage I thought it was, and getting an x-ray. Doesn't mean there's anything specially brave about that - it just means I have a very high pain threshold. After that and the cracked metatarsal I walked on for a couple of weeks thinking I'd just bruised my foot by dropping the Larousse History of France on it corner down, I now know to get an x-ray even if I'm not sure what I've done. High pain thresholds aren't a good thing either: I now have an imperfectly aligned set bone in my pelvic girdle, and a slight limp. Like Einstein said, stupidity is one of the few things that has no limits.

Some lengthy births cause babies distress. Some precipitous births cause babies distress. In my case, despite the (very painful) after-effects of a very quick first labour, I was glad it was a precipitous labour since getting her out quickly was important - in fact when my (meconium-stained) waters broke, the midwives were both keen on making it even more precipitous, hence the episiotomy. A lengthy labour would not have been good for her - in my case.

It's really not possible to make generic statements about birth that are true in all times and all places, is it? Well, other than the very obvious stuff like 'antisepsis is a good thing', and 'any birth that ends with a live, healthy baby and a healthy live mother is a good outcome'.

I think Helena is lucky she didn't suffer from obstetric fistula, after such a prolonged labour, with what seems to have been uterine inertia in the middle. Luckier than many young women in the developing world (some of them child or early teen brides) who have no choice about toughing it out without medical help during two and three day labours, and end up with a hole between the rectum and the vagina, where continuously pressurised tissue has become necrotic.

She's lucky she did not, (please excuse my bluntness) end up with shit coming through a rectal fistula and into her vagina every time she defecates, or urine dribbling continuously out of her vagina where she has a urethral fistula. (After which of course, in the case of the aforesaid young women, not only is their health ruined, but their marriages, and their lives, since no-one wants them any more.)

First world problems, eh? Being able to choose to run the risk of that happening, secure in the knowledge that if, by chance, you do screw it up, a surgeon will be able to put it right.

http://www.fistulafoundation.com, if the above explanation freaks you the fuck out (as it always does me). I have a monthly contribution going, because the thought of that is just... no.

[August]

How are precipitous births not good for the baby? Are you suggesting women who are progressing quickly through labor should be given medication to slow it? If so, why?

I've never lied about how much birth hurts. It does hurt. Transition sucks. But it's over fast. And if you go into birth thinking you aren't going to have any pain, that's wrong. I just believe if you can adjust mentally to why it hurts and get above the pain to realize each contraction you are one step closer to being done, it helps. And every birth is different and everyone's pain tolerance is different. I just chose to hope I wasn't one of the women that was going to go on and on afterward about how much it sucked. Because it was over far faster than I had been told it would so I was thrilled. I have always told my birth stories positively and honestly.

Babies can crash after precipitous births. I only have it on my midwife's word, but I'll see what I can find online to back it up.

[August]

How are precipitous births not good for the baby? Are you suggesting women who are progressing quickly through labor should be given medication to slow it? If so, why?

I've never lied about how much birth hurts. It does hurt. Transition sucks. But it's over fast. And if you go into birth thinking you aren't going to have any pain, that's wrong. I just believe if you can adjust mentally to why it hurts and get above the pain to realize each contraction you are one step closer to being done, it helps. And every birth is different and everyone's pain tolerance is different. I just chose to hope I wasn't one of the women that was going to go on and on afterward about how much it sucked. Because it was over far faster than I had been told it would so I was thrilled. I have always told my birth stories positively and honestly.

They just aren't. I've never heard of anyone being given something that would slow a precipitous labor. Is there even anything that would?

In addition to these risk factors, medical complications have been noted in precipitous labors and deliveries. Complications—which can occur in only the mother, the baby, or both—include the following:

Mother’s loss of ability to cope with labor

Emotional or physical stress

Cervical laceration

Vaginal laceration

Perineum damage

Uterine atony after delivery

Hemorrhaging

Fetal distress

Hypoxia from intense contractions

Cerebral damage to the baby as a result of rapid movement through the birth canal

Pnumothorax as a result of rapid movement through the birth canal

[WonderingInWA]

Magnesium is administered to slow contractions. I'm not sure what else.

[FreeJosie]

Magnesium is administered to slow contractions. I'm not sure what else.

I was given magnesium sulfate to treat preeclampsia while I was in labor. It worked against Pitocin (I was induced), but when all was said and done, I had a pretty short labor anyway - 6 1/2 hours.

[terranova]

Here it is very common to have an "all natural" (no drugs) delivery in a hospital. Many of my Mother's group had them. Just the midwives and the Dad in the room with Mum. The hospital we delivered at has deep pools for water births which I believe one of the Mum's used.

Out of the 12 of us, 4 had c sections (2 planned, 2 emergencies), 4 had no drugs, and the balance had some kind of intervention. All were hospital births.

[August]

Magnesium is administered to slow contractions. I'm not sure what else.

Oh yeah, it it,isn't it? But it's really horrible, isn't it? I think I'd prefer a baby who's a bit stunned from the birth than the side effects of mag sulfate.

[meda]

Mag sulfate is also given to prevent seizures for women with pre - and eclampsia symptoms. I actually had post partum pre-eclampsia about a week after my son was born. I had several IV's of mag sulfate.

[meda]

I had no side effects from the Mag, other than a refreshing lack of seizures. Yay modern medicine :)

[FreeJosie]

I had no side effects from the Mag, other than a refreshing lack of seizures. Yay modern medicine :)

I didn't have any side effects either, thank goodness. I know that some women do have a rough time with mag sulfate.