Reality TV Kids (Duggars and others)

[Palimpsest]

Just to get the ball rolling on discussion:

I'm interested in talking about legislation (Child Labor Laws) and protections for working children in Reality TV (or the lack thereof), Trust Funds (or the lack thereof), and the motivations of parents who fall into the trap of Reality TV (sometimes benign, sometimes not), contracts, and anything else people think is relevant!

Let's talk Dionnes, Louds, Gosselins, Duggars. Roloffs, Little Couple, Guidices, Hayes, Honey Boo Boo, Dance Moms and whomever you want. I really don't follow them all and am barely aware of some of the above. I think we should be inclusive though.

I would respectfully request that intense dislike of Ms. Gosselin's personality is kept to a minimum or taken to another thread. Let's discuss her stupid decisions in selling out her kids to Reality TV, not her personality.

Yeah, the Gosselins are very central to this discussion because they are the most obvious contemporary family to fuck their children's privacy over and exploit their kids for $$. I intensely dislike Ms. Gosselin too. I'd rather keep her personal (abusive) issues away from here though, if we can. I may slip myself :) but I'd like to extend the discussion to other families and how they are coping. Or not.

I'm going to start by bringing some comments over from the old "Jessa is courting" Duggar thread with quick answers before getting into the meat of the discussion.

I'll try to get a second post up tomorrow with my take on the history of all this and some details on legislation. It may be a bit redundant to the informed, but it may also help newcomers.

If I didn't bring over your comment, or misattributed, my apologies. Cut and paste is hard and it is really difficult to get the quotes right! My comments in red.

BirthingGodsWarriors said

I owe you an apology. I sounded a bit snippy. I meant "Where have you been? Come sit by me, my friend and let's discuss!" This issue hasn't really been discussed much on FJ, partly because there seemed to be an unspoken agreement on yuku that the Gosselins were sort of "fake Fundie" and it wasn't really FJ material.

FormerGothardite said

Yes, absolutely FormerGothardite is correct. But TLC isn't the entity to set up trust funds. It is the parents' responsibility.

Shewearsfunnyhat said

The trust accounts will likely be gone before the children are grown up. The money in the trust is to be spent on the children. But, that can include tuition, housing, food, nannies, doctors exc. The childrens work is still funding their parents lifestyle. Its just behind a smoke screen.

The Duggar children are also funding their parents life style. Partially through being on the show and partially through raising their siblings.

[Palimpsest]

And for context, I'm going to quote myself. This is the post that inspired me to start this new thread. Apparently others are interested in discussing the issue:

We touched on the bolded in the last thread and several people commented.

It is a common misconception that Coogan's Law is federal and that 1. All child actors are covered by it, and 2. Children in Reality TV count as actors and are covered.

This is far from the truth. Per the existing Federal Child Labor Laws, and in most states, children in Reality TV are not considered to be actors. It is left strictly up to the parents whether or not they set up trust funds for the children with the $$ they make. It is up to the parents to decide whether they take out work permits for their children. It is up to the parents as to what restrictions they place on the hours their children "play" in front of the cameras, and what intimate forage is shot, and eventually broadcast.

Basically, I believe that TLC (and others like Lifetime and Bravo) encourages families like the Gosselins and Duggars to incorporate. TLC then cuts a single check to the "Family, Inc." It is up to the parents how they divide the money. No trust funds are required and not even a measly 15% needs to be put aside for the minor children.

The Duggars were pretty smart in restricting some of the things they allow to be filmed, because Modesty. I presume the children, once they turn 18, must sign their own consent forms and could ask for separate checks. However, given the way they are raised, I would place a bet that the only one who has a separate pay check is Josh at the moment. As he is married he now counts as adult in JB's world view. Jim Bob "may" use some of the funds to help the boys (like JD) set up a business and he "may" decide to give the girls dowries (if they marry the right JB approved guy) but I believe he controls every stinking penny. The girls couldn't access the money for a running away fund if they wanted.

College Minus is simply an endorsement by Duggars, Inc. The older children "may" be taking on-line classes. Well intentioned Duggar fans probably don't notice that no-one ever seems to work very hard at classes, go to a bricks and mortar college, let alone graduate from college!

TLC will probably throw the Duggars completely under the bus when the public has demonstrated with low ratings that they have had enough.

I could say a lot about kids in reality tv, but it would go way beyond the Duggars and get into those other families. I may start a thread over in Wide World of Snark if anyone is interested. And if I have time! :lol:

[Coconut Flan]

The Gosselin trust funds weren't really retroactive. They didn't go back to the beginning of the show but only to about the beginning of that season.

[Feberin]

Can we add the Teen Mom (1, 2 and now 3) kids to the list? I really feel for those kids because like the Gosselins have some very private moments like using the potty filmed. I would assume their mothers would be particularly bad about setting aside money for their children although I would assume since Kailyn lives in PA her son would have a trust fund set up.

[thoughtful]

I spent some time on the A Minor Consideration site and Facebook. There's way too much there to read in one sitting, but I will return to it.

I did notice (and even did a search) that he does not write about the Duggars at all.

They were mentioned in the comments under a Facebook post about Honey Boo Boo -- someone mentioned the Duggars as another family that exploits their children, and a few people defended them.

https://www.facebook.com/minorcon/posts/399671243429833

Of course, if laws are passed protecting all children, and those laws are enforced, that could help regardless of whether the parents are parading the kids around for glamour or Jesus.

[Miggy]

I have a major issue with where the line is between a child actor and a reality tv star. A child actor gets a lot of protections including rules about working hours and their trust funds because they are "working". Reality kids get nothing because they are supposedly just having their regular life filmed. However, the Duggar kids spend a lot of time doing interviews. That's not part of normal life. I think that should cross them over to being actors, with all the protections that involves.

[Tesseract]

I have a major issue with where the line is between a child actor and a reality tv star. A child actor gets a lot of protections including rules about working hours and their trust funds because they are "working". Reality kids get nothing because they are supposedly just having their regular life filmed. However, the Duggar kids spend a lot of time doing interviews. That's not part of normal life. I think that should cross them over to being actors, with all the protections that involves.

ITA. I probably have a more extreme view of kids in reality tv, in that I don't believe they should be there at all. I do not understand why parents, the public etc... think it is ok to sell the privacy of their minor children to strangers. From Wife Swap to the nanny shows to the "real housewife" shows to the Gosselin's/Roloffs/Duggars - children's lives, their behavior, emotions, reactions... should not be entertainment for the masses. I don't even think it is okay with "protections". Limiting hours and setting up accounts etc does not, in my mind, compensate for the exposure which is out there forever.

I think a one time medical documentary might be okay - still thinking that one through. The rest of this stuff is just pure exploitation. Nothing like a black and white opinion :)

[formergothardite]

Through the Kate Gosselin thread I learned that they signed a contract saying that all the children must perform in order for the parents to get paid. Do you think that the other families with kids have signed similar contracts?

[Tesseract]

Through the Kate Gosselin thread I learned that they signed a contract saying that all the children must perform in order for the parents to get paid. Do you think that the other families with kids have signed similar contracts?

I think that may well be the case. I believe HBB's contract covers the family. I was just doing some basic searches to see what kind of info is out there and found a couple of interesting reads.

http://blogs.villagevoice.com/runninscared/2011/08/mtv_real_world_contract.php

http://blogs.findlaw.com/celebrity_justice/2013/05/want-to-be-a-reality-tv-star-3-tips-before-you-sign.html

http://www.dga.org/contracts/agreements/reality.aspx

This is a link to the Big Brother contract.

http://www.realityblurred.com/realitytv/archives/big_brother_13/2011_Jul_06_cast_contract

I've read that the Duggars are paid as a family, but haven't found solid proof.

[Arete]

I know I am in the minority about this on this site, but I find the non fundie reality TV parents to be just as big assholes as the Duggar parents. Honey Boo Boo's mother may claim she is saving money for college, but without protection laws that cover reality TV kids, there is no way to hold her accountable or verify that claim independently. Just because she isn't a fundie doesn't mean she is not exploiting her children for a paycheck.

She, the Teen Mom parents, the Duggars.....what can I say? They shouldn't be allowed to expose their children to ridicule for a freakin' show. The most intimate details of their family history and life should not be on Youtube or for sale for their for future friends, employers, or random deranged people to access.

[Tesseract]

I know I am in the minority about this on this site, but I find the non fundie reality TV parents to be just as big assholes as the Duggar parents. Honey Boo Boo's mother may claim she is saving money for college, but without protection laws that cover reality TV kids, there is no way to hold her accountable or verify that claim independently. Just because she isn't a fundie doesn't mean she is not exploiting her children for a paycheck.

She, the Teen Mom parents, the Duggars.....what can I say? They shouldn't be allowed to expose their children to ridicule for a freakin' show. The most intimate details of their family history and life should not be on Youtube or for sale for their for future friends, employers, or random deranged people to access.

ITA

[formergothardite]

I know I am in the minority about this on this site, but I find the non fundie reality TV parents to be just as big assholes as the Duggar parents. Honey Boo Boo's mother may claim she is saving money for college, but without protection laws that cover reality TV kids, there is no way to hold her accountable or verify that claim independently. Just because she isn't a fundie doesn't mean she is not exploiting her children for a paycheck.

She, the Teen Mom parents, the Duggars.....what can I say? They shouldn't be allowed to expose their children to ridicule for a freakin' show. The most intimate details of their family history and life should not be on Youtube or for sale for their for future friends, employers, or random deranged people to access.

ITA. I think it is all exploitation of children. All of these parents have essentially sold their children's childhood to the public as entertainment. I honestly don't think children should be allowed on reality television shows.

[Tesseract]

Going back to the Gosselin family, a couple of outrageous consequences come to mind. First, there was an editor of many of the episodes, Bill Blankenship, who was charged and convicted of child pornography. He had access to hours and hours of footage of those kids to work with. They were filmed in all states of undress potty training etc... The other was a website titled - name of child is a b@tch. The little one was 6 years old. What kind of parent puts their kids out there like that and for profit. Oh, I get so outraged about this topic. I can not even imagine the cutting room floor footage of Toddlers and Tiaras.

[formergothardite]

Thinking about these reality tv children I'm reminded of the real Christopher Robin who hated that his father used his childhood in his books.

Here is a very sad cartoon about Christopher Robin.

http://www.buzzfeed.com/kevintang/chris-robin-comic

But the part that stood out to me in that cartoon was this:

"They were all my stories, my enchanted places, my secret path through the trees. Not a tourist attraction for the whole world to walk through."

I think that is what reality tv does to children. It takes the magic of childhood and children and turns into a way to make money. Without the kids most of these reality tv shows wouldn't be on air.

[Tesseract]

Thinking about these reality tv children I'm reminded of the real Christopher Robin who hated that his father used his childhood in his books.

Here is a very sad cartoon about Christopher Robin.

http://www.buzzfeed.com/kevintang/chris-robin-comic

But the part that stood out to me in that cartoon was this:

"They were all my stories, my enchanted places, my secret path through the trees. Not a tourist attraction for the whole world to walk through."

I think that is what reality tv does to children. It takes the magic of childhood and children and turns into a way to make money. Without the kids most of these reality tv shows wouldn't be on air.

I didn't know this about CR. Very sad. Again, ITA.

[Mama Mia]

So now I'm curious about the Teen Mom shows. For the moms who are under 18 , would the contract be with their parents? But for the infants, wouldn't the contract need to be with the teen mom, even if she is a minor ? How does that work ?

[Curious]

I have a major issue with where the line is between a child actor and a reality tv star. A child actor gets a lot of protections including rules about working hours and their trust funds because they are "working". Reality kids get nothing because they are supposedly just having their regular life filmed. However, the Duggar kids spend a lot of time doing interviews. That's not part of normal life. I think that should cross them over to being actors, with all the protections that involves.

The Gosselin's got around this initially by calling the series a 'documentary.' Kate is famous for saying I'm working while the kids are playing in and out of the frame (or something similar to that), but anyone that watched the show knows that is not at all the case.

For years, people have argued the kids were actually working because they had scripted lines. I doubt any of the G8 spontaneously said "next on Jon and Kate plus 8" or similar things.

A local went to a corn maze where they were filming once and saw just how much the kids were "playing" while kate was working. I'll find the link.

Edit to add link to corn maze post: http://smalltowngosselins.squarespace.c ... today.html

[Curious]

I know I am in the minority about this on this site, but I find the non fundie reality TV parents to be just as big assholes as the Duggar parents. Honey Boo Boo's mother may claim she is saving money for college, but without protection laws that cover reality TV kids, there is no way to hold her accountable or verify that claim independently. Just because she isn't a fundie doesn't mean she is not exploiting her children for a paycheck.

She, the Teen Mom parents, the Duggars.....what can I say? They shouldn't be allowed to expose their children to ridicule for a freakin' show. The most intimate details of their family history and life should not be on Youtube or for sale for their for future friends, employers, or random deranged people to access.

I don't think you are a minority, necessarily, Artejo. We just never really had an appropriate place to have these kind of discussions previously the way the forum was set up.

This is one of the reasons that we opened WWoS :)

[Coconut Flan]

I have a major issue with where the line is between a child actor and a reality tv star. A child actor gets a lot of protections including rules about working hours and their trust funds because they are "working". Reality kids get nothing because they are supposedly just having their regular life filmed. However, the Duggar kids spend a lot of time doing interviews. That's not part of normal life. I think that should cross them over to being actors, with all the protections that involves.

That's why in Cali the court ruled that there was no difference. Participation in reality TV was deemed work and not a documentary as the networks like to try to play it.

[Arete]

I don't think you are a minority, necessarily, Artejo. We just never really had an appropriate place to have these kind of discussions previously the way the forum was set up.

This is one of the reasons that we opened WWoS :)

Oh no, I didn't mean because there was no discussion before. There is a Honey Boo Boo thread in QFWD, and it seems that a lot of people like and enjoy the show. Granted, the Quiverfull/Dominionist agenda of the Duggars is pure and unadulterated poison, but June is still damaging her daughters in irreversible ways by exploiting them for TV.

I am really digging WWoS :mrgreen:

[Arete]

That's why in Cali the court ruled that there was no difference. Participation in reality TV was deemed work and not a documentary as the networks like to try to play it.

Unfortunately, every state has to pass the same laws as California for reality TV kids in the entire US to be covered. I know that Pennsylvania has because of the abuses of the Gosselins, but that still leaves another 48 to go.

[lilwriter85]

Thinking about these reality tv children I'm reminded of the real Christopher Robin who hated that his father used his childhood in his books.

Here is a very sad cartoon about Christopher Robin.

http://www.buzzfeed.com/kevintang/chris-robin-comic

But the part that stood out to me in that cartoon was this:

"They were all my stories, my enchanted places, my secret path through the trees. Not a tourist attraction for the whole world to walk through."

I think that is what reality tv does to children. It takes the magic of childhood and children and turns into a way to make money. Without the kids most of these reality tv shows wouldn't be on air.

I knew about the real Christopher Robin, but I didn't know he had issues with his father because of the books. The book Gone Girl has a subplot in which a character was the basis for her parents' children books and there were issues because of it.

[Coconut Flan]

Unfortunately, every state has to pass the same laws as California for reality TV kids in the entire US to be covered. I know that Pennsylvania has because of the abuses of the Gosselins, but that still leaves another 48 to go.

NY may have some provision also. One thing that makes it sad for me is that the very people who should be protecting these children are the ones who are selling them out.

[Gertie]

ITA. I think it is all exploitation of children. All of these parents have essentially sold their children's childhood to the public as entertainment. I honestly don't think children should be allowed on reality television shows.

I agree, I would also like to see a ban on children being allowed in reality TV. I think in a generation or so, when today's reality-show kids are adults and start speaking out against it, we will see big changes. Hopefully sooner rather than later.

[RosyDaisy]

There"s also a distinct possibility these reality show kids may become even bigger famewhores and attention seekers than their parents.