Honest Question about Duggar Children

[ljohnson2006]

The older Duggar girls will most likely not have the big families that they desire to, unless they get started soon. Do they know that your fertility does not last forever? I think that some of the kids are going to leave this lifestyle. I think that Johannah has way too much spunk and smarts to stay in this. The kids are not prepared for any careers with the educations that J’Chelle gave them at the SOTDRT. I wonder how most passed the GED test. Did they have tutors for it? Probably not, since Boob is too cheap to spend money on things that will further his children’s lives, and maybe entice them to leave the Duggar compound. I know that this upcoming season is going to be another bore. How many more seasons will go on, before TLC decides to end it? I don’t think Kate Gosselin’s show lasted this long, and that was entertaining. They went out and did things.

[Mama Mia]

I know it can be really tough to support a family on one income with little in the way of academic skills, but it isn't impossible. There are many, many construction workers, painters, landscapers, small business owners etc out there and while the recession destroyed a large segment of those fields it has been bouncing back some. People need to remember that only about a quarter of adults over25 in the United States complete a college degree, and the other 75% aren't all poverty stricken.

Supporting the huge mega families would obviously be much rougher, which might be part of why so many of them seem to be delaying marriage. If you start having children at 20 you are very likely to have over a dozen, if you wait until 30 you're unlikely to have more than a half dozen, greatly easing the economic burden.

They also mostly seem to live n ridiculously cheap areas, making the one income family much more feasible.

[RosyDaisy]

But how many of these people have a dozen or more kids? Sure you can support a family of maybe 2-3 that way, but a dozen or more? I don't think so. Plus it depends on what kind of business you operate and how many competitors you have in your area. Let's also not forget that some of these fundies get handouts and donations from churches and the community.

[ljohnson2006]

I'm sure most Fundies get handouts. It's obvious that the Duggars do. It's called TLC.

[nerdymama1]

I doubt anyone WANTS out in a "I am going to run away from here" kind of way. What I do believe is that their system makes some of them unhappy and if they could stop believing it, they would in a heartbeat. When you're in that kind of environment, you're told if you're not happy it's not the system, it's YOU. So you try harder and harder until there is a tipping point where you either learn to live with it or you break free and retrospectively realize you wanted out all along.

[JenniferJuniper]

I took the OP (ie, "their situation") to mean living with mom and dad at TTH. I think IF any of them think of leaving the lifestyle entirely they are immediately disabled by fear. I have no doubt that they really do believe that the world is a big, bad horrible place. ITA that they could be going from the frying pan into the fire via marriage, but I don't think they have any idea, at all, that men can be abusive. I genuinely think that they totally believe that if they love and respect their Godly, daddy-and-Gothard approved husbands, then they will be blessed with love and adoration.

They are naïve, but I'm not sure they've been sheltered enough to completely believe the Prince Charming BS, even though they are paid to spew it. (or Boob is paid when they spew it.) Compared with the other fundies we discuss out here, they're among the most worldly. I'm sure they've heard gossip or even personally know of Gothard marriages that aren't going well. I also recall Jessa listing off a bunch of negative traits she sees in the men around her, one in particular being "quick to anger". And as someone pointed out, I'm sure they think Anna's life sucks. They know their brother.

Of course, we have no idea what's really going on behind closed doors at the TTH, but I think if Boob could start offloading a daughter or two he'd be doing it. The little kids are growing up and Joy can replace an original J-slave as needed. (heck, Hannie's probably older now than Jana was when she first started parenting). Something is preventing it from happening. I'd like to think it's the daughters telling Boob they're not interested in any of the Gothard creeps he keeps suggesting.

I don't think anyone is suggesting a college degree is necessary to survive, but trade skills can be very helpful. General handy Andy skills are all the Duggar boys seem to have, and that's not going to get them too far. And in order to successfully run a small business, you really do need fundamental business savvy. (Josh clearly didn't have it). Arkansas is an impoverished state, and I'd imagine the need for landscapers and painters isn't boundless and that there is plenty of competition for those types of jobs.

The Duggars are dooming most of their kids' futures by refusing them even basic career training. The boys can't even join the military.

[FloraDoraDolly]

Awhile back, one of the regular posters on this forum (I forget who) said that very few of the children brought up in the Gothard cult stay on into adulthood. Most of them do leave.

As others have noted on this thread, the younger Duggars were not raised in the same strict, tightly controlled environment as their elder siblings. From what I've seen in other families with wild, howler monkeyish children, it is VERY hard to rein them in once they're used to behaving that way.

[paganhomeschooler]

For the girls especially, I think they've seen some of their Journey to the Heart friends live the "dream," and are now mothers-of-many in their mid-20s. Since the J'slaves have been there & done that, it's easy to imagine that they'd maybe like a few years without the responsibility of raising small children.

Anyone familiar with the Gilbreths of Cheaper by the Dozen fame? They were a family of 12 with 11 living to adulthood, and if I recall correctly, many of them did not marry, and those who did had very small families, even in a time when birth control wasn't advanced like today. The "fun" of a large family must not outweigh the reality of being lost in the crowd.

That's my grandpa's favorite movie. :-) My mom is 1 of 12, though thankfully not fundie. (Big, German Catholic family.) I love reading about the Gilbreth family! I've got both of their books, though I haven't read Belles on Their Toes yet. I have seen both movies. The originals, not the remake abominations. Mrs. Gilbreth was an amazing woman! She was very progressive, especially for her time.

[nellautumngirl]

It breaks my heart to think about that. I don't think Jana ever got to be a child, no wonder she radiates sadness.

[MrsYoungie]

I think the Duggar kids know about the outside world the same way that we know about other planets. I've seen pictures of Mars thanks to the Rover, but if somebody offered me to go live there? I don't think so. Even if an alien actually appeared at my door step and said "Come with me to planet Gorblatz. We have arglebargle and compadiddles and fremholtz!!!" Why would I go? I have no idea what those words even mean. Jana and the other girls particularly, have no way to internalize the ideas of "freedom", "choice", "culture". They are just words to them.

[tabitha2]

If you read Lillian gilbreths biography, you'll learn she employed the buddy system extensively and scheduled her time with her kids-2hr 15 min a day with the older kids and 30 min with the baby .the rest was spent mostly working on her book, napping and miscellania.

[Closed Womb]

Snip

They are naïve, but I'm not sure they've been sheltered enough to completely believe the Prince Charming BS, even though they are paid to spew it. (or Boob is paid when they spew it.) Compared with the other fundies we discuss out here, they're among the most worldly. I'm sure they've heard gossip or even personally know of Gothard marriages that aren't going well. I also recall Jessa listing off a bunch of negative traits she sees in the men around her, one in particular being "quick to anger". And as someone pointed out, I'm sure they think Anna's life sucks. They know their brother.

Snip

I'm not sure about that. I met a lot of fundie-lite women who knew of bad/abusive marriages that truly believed the fault was with the woman not being godly/submissive/in prayer/whatever enough. Or they blamed it on the woman not listening to God in the first place (ie, the poor soul in question surely would have know that he wasn't the one if she was praying and open to hearing from God before marriage; often it was thought that the woman in question did not want to listen to God because of her desire for sex and was now paying the price for putting her needs above God's wishes.) And these were not sheltered women either. They were educated, living in "the world" women. One was actually a doctor.

[DefraudedByPlaid]

I don't think anyone is suggesting a college degree is necessary to survive, but trade skills can be very helpful. General handy Andy skills are all the Duggar boys seem to have, and that's not going to get them too far. And in order to successfully run a small business, you really do need fundamental business savvy. (Josh clearly didn't have it).

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[ThatSnark]

That's my grandpa's favorite movie. :-) My mom is 1 of 12, though thankfully not fundie. (Big, German Catholic family.) I love reading about the Gilbreth family! I've got both of their books, though I haven't read Belles on Their Toes yet. I have seen both movies. The originals, not the remake abominations. Mrs. Gilbreth was an amazing woman! She was very progressive, especially for her time.

Thanks for clarifying-- it's been years since I've read the Gilbreth stories, and I didn't see the more recent movies, but the first ones with the family's input were delightful. Please read Belles-- I think it's even better than Cheaper by the Dozen! And no, the Gilbreths (like your family) were not fundies... they just liked children and efficiency. I did find it interesting that not one of the 11 children had an outsize family of their own, though. There's only so much time in the day, and it had to be challenging to compete for their parents' time, especially with both of them working.

[paganhomeschooler]

I will definitely have to bump Belles up on my reading list! I can't remember if my daughter has read it yet or not. She did a report on CBTD years ago.

I can imagine how it must have been to find time for everyone, especially after Mrs. Gilbreth became widowed!

I know they did use the buddy system and were a very scheduled family. But, to their defense, the scheduling was kind of their thing. That's just what they did. I do think they appeared to take an active role in knowing their children, however. With a family of 12 kids, well 11, it would be nearly impossible to run a household functionally as a single parent without a set schedule. Most of the children were still fairly young when she was widowed.

I still think she was progressive for her time. She did great work in a male dominated field and came to be just as respected, if not more so, than her husband. That takes some guts, especially when she did this in a time that women didn't even have the right to vote. Her girls seemed to be very headstrong and able to stand on their own 2 feet. They also valued education for all of the children, and they took their thoughts into account when making decisions and holding their family meetings where they could all vote on important matters.

The Duggars are just lazy and use the buddy system so they don't have to parent and keep their kids undereducated with a SOTDRT education so they can't form an opinion that is not of the party line. I know the Gilbreth family wasn't perfect, but I can't imagine Lillian ever being a doe-eyed, mindless helpmeet who did the bidding of her headship without question.

[JenniferJuniper]

I'm not sure about that. I met a lot of fundie-lite women who knew of bad/abusive marriages that truly believed the fault was with the woman not being godly/submissive/in prayer/whatever enough. Or they blamed it on the woman not listening to God in the first place (ie, the poor soul in question surely would have know that he wasn't the one if she was praying and open to hearing from God before marriage; often it was thought that the woman in question did not want to listen to God because of her desire for sex and was now paying the price for putting her needs above God's wishes.) And these were not sheltered women either. They were educated, living in "the world" women. One was actually a doctor.

I know atheist women who have blamed themselves for abusive relationships. It's cultural. Women in our society are raised to believe they are solely responsible for the health of relationships.

This doesn't mean the Duggar women don't understand the basic perils of what would essentially be an arranged marriage in a patriarchal world. Michelle and Boob (and TLC) would have us believe deep down they are still the sheltered frumper girls of old. I don't believe they are. Sheltered still to an extent, yes, but not oblivious. And the older they get, the less oblivious they'll likely be.

I'm sure they've had Gothard men show interest in them. Boob and the show aside, they're all attractive and at least of average intelligence. And they can fundie-cook and raise babies. So who is holding things up? Jim Bob or the daughters? Maybe some combination of both?

[jaynie]

I've been thinking a fair bit about who leaves cults (for non-FJ reasons), and I've done a bit of academic research on the subject. There isn't a lot of material about second-genners (ie. kids of cultists) who leave, but from what I've pieced together I've noticed some key aspects:

-The whole square-peg-round-hole thing -- if you just don't fit, chances are sooner or later you're going to go and find yourself a damned square hole. This is one of the most cited reasons for leaving, although the specifics vary (a girl with dreams of power is more likely to leave than a boy, a gay child is only more likely to leave if a desire for intimacy is a big component of their personality, etc). There are definitely Duggarlings in who are square pegs -- the abundance of non-maternal girls is painfully obvious on this front, for a start.

-Openness to Experience, which is a psych trait I mentioned in another thread (I think Josh's social media thread?), and which is correlated strongly with liberalism and inversely correlated with authoritarianism and conservative religiosity. It's hard to tell because they're not really ALLOWED to be open to experience, but IMO some of the kids (Josiah in particular) have a lot of traits that are usually associated with openness (humour, artistic ability, interest in aesthetics, inquisitiveness, to name but a few).

- Poor relationship with parents, particularly father-son and mother-daughter. Hard to comment on, though lets be honest, that's never stopped us before. Instinctively I think some of those parental relationships look strained -- and even in the best case scenario, JB and Michelle's time is divided up between nineteen kids (ostensibly) so they're hardly going to be especially close to any of them.

- Luck. This is actually the biggest deal. A kid you never thought would leave might happen to meet a nice atheist (even at like a grocery store or a tourist attraction or something) and that gets the ball rolling. Or one might marry into a family that has a strongly liberal side and begin to doubt. This is completely impossible to predict -- although given their relative exposure to the world I'd say the D kids have a better shot than some of the others (like, say, the Maxwells). Now, some kids are more likely to create their own luck (by being extroverted, or adventurous, etc) but it really is very variable.

So of those four things, we have Duggarlings that fall into 1 and 2 and maybe 3, and they all have a better than average shot at four. Compounding, this, of course, is the context of the TV show: reality television breaks families. So while I wouldn't necessarily say for sure that any of them want out at this exact moment (only they themselves would know that), I'd be very surprised if none of them eventually GOT out (whether by overt rebellion or gradual drift). I don't think pessimism on this front is any more realistic than optimism.

(As an aside, it really is impossible to say if any of them currently want out. They might -- even the most devout might dream of running off, even if it is only a dream. They might feel that they are perfectly content or that life will not be any better outside the family. They might even daydream about living different lifestyles, but are not able to articulate it even to themselves (Jinger's pining for the city might fall into that category). Wanting out might make them more likely to take an opportunity to run, but I don't think knowing their exact states of minds at the moment says anything particularly useful about the long run.)

[JenniferJuniper]

I've been thinking a fair bit about who leaves cults (for non-FJ reasons), and I've done a bit of academic research on the subject. There isn't a lot of material about second-genners (ie. kids of cultists) who leave, but from what I've pieced together I've noticed some key aspects:

-The whole square-peg-round-hole thing -- if you just don't fit, chances are sooner or later you're going to go and find yourself a damned square hole. This is one of the most cited reasons for leaving, although the specifics vary (a girl with dreams of power is more likely to leave than a boy, a gay child is only more likely to leave if a desire for intimacy is a big component of their personality, etc). There are definitely Duggarlings in who are square pegs -- the abundance of non-maternal girls is painfully obvious on this front, for a start.

-Openness to Experience, which is a psych trait I mentioned in another thread (I think Josh's social media thread?), and which is correlated strongly with liberalism and inversely correlated with authoritarianism and conservative religiosity. It's hard to tell because they're not really ALLOWED to be open to experience, but IMO some of the kids (Josiah in particular) have a lot of traits that are usually associated with openness (humour, artistic ability, interest in aesthetics, inquisitiveness, to name but a few).

- Poor relationship with parents, particularly father-son and mother-daughter. Hard to comment on, though lets be honest, that's never stopped us before. Instinctively I think some of those parental relationships look strained -- and even in the best case scenario, JB and Michelle's time is divided up between nineteen kids (ostensibly) so they're hardly going to be especially close to any of them.

- Luck. This is actually the biggest deal. A kid you never thought would leave might happen to meet a nice atheist (even at like a grocery store or a tourist attraction or something) and that gets the ball rolling. Or one might marry into a family that has a strongly liberal side and begin to doubt. This is completely impossible to predict -- although given their relative exposure to the world I'd say the D kids have a better shot than some of the others (like, say, the Maxwells). Now, some kids are more likely to create their own luck (by being extroverted, or adventurous, etc) but it really is very variable.

So of those four things, we have Duggarlings that fall into 1 and 2 and maybe 3, and they all have a better than average shot at four. Compounding, this, of course, is the context of the TV show: reality television breaks families. So while I wouldn't necessarily say for sure that any of them want out at this exact moment (only they themselves would know that), I'd be very surprised if none of them eventually GOT out (whether by overt rebellion or gradual drift). I don't think pessimism on this front is any more realistic than optimism.

(As an aside, it really is impossible to say if any of them currently want out. They might -- even the most devout might dream of running off, even if it is only a dream. They might feel that they are perfectly content or that life will not be any better outside the family. They might even daydream about living different lifestyles, but are not able to articulate it even to themselves (Jinger's pining for the city might fall into that category). Wanting out might make them more likely to take an opportunity to run, but I don't think knowing their exact states of minds at the moment says anything particularly useful about the long run.)

I agree with your post but I'm highlighting the above because I think it's an interesting, semi-unexplored topic.

The only truly close parent/child relationship I've seen from watching the show is between Michelle and Josh and secondarily between Josh and Jim Bob. It's almost like they had an only child and then took in 18 foster kids who they care about but who are somewhat less important than their natural born child. Bizarre, I know, but that's the sense I get. Maybe the loss of "Caleb" really did flip some kind of switch in their brains.

Jim Bob does seem to be closer to the older daughters than the sons following Josh and also seems to have a soft spot for Joy who was born amongst so many boys. With the rest of his sons? He seems to appreciate JD and Joseph, but from Josiah (who he seems to resent) on down, I'm not seeing much of a connection. They seem to irritate him. With the little girls, he acts like a slightly distracted grandfather.

Michelle is even more complicated. All snarking aside (if that's possible), I don't get the sense she's really close to any of her other children, even the older daughters who have done so much for her. Josie is the one exception, but even with her, it's almost as though Michelle is more proud of having an anti-abortion poster child than she is of Josie the individual.

So I agree, it's impossible for any set of parents to effectively divide time between 19 kids. But even beyond that, dysfunctional relationships seem to abound here. Toss in a TV show and lots of money and I think we're looking at a major implosion somewhere down the line.

[Arete]

I really think that Jana equals if not exceeds Josh in Jim Bob's eyes. Honestly, it has been a few year since I watched the show, but it did not seem to me based on the interactions I saw that Jim Bob was particularly fond of Josh. Michelle most certainly is, but I am not sold on JB. I do remember seeing moments between JB and Jana where JB was actually able to drop his QF hustler leanings and show her real, genuine, love and affection. The ones that stick out most was how appreciative he was when she made the slideshow for Jimmy Lee's funeral, and how he tried to sooth her and the rest of the kids after the Jubilee fiasco. I really don't see JB having any real tenderness toward Josh. I also think a good case can be made that he also just can't stand Josiah.

JB and Michelle both suck for creating an orphanage, not a family. There is no way anyone from the middle boys down has had any real parenting put into them by their actual biological parents.

Like Mrs2004 said, it is statistically impossible that all 19 kids from that family are going to tow the QF line for the rest of their natural lives.

[miffy]

I think a lot of them will gradually get my worldly minded. I think we see it in Josh already. His children wear normal looking clothes. I think for hiim thebst part of Christianity is feeling superior to everyone else.

I agree, also the attention he is getting these days is probably making up for the attention he missed out on as a child & teenager. I can really blame him for that.

[miffy]

I really think that Jana equals if not exceeds Josh in Jim Bob's eyes. Honestly, it has been a few year since I watched the show, but it did not seem to me based on the interactions I saw that Jim Bob was particularly fond of Josh. Michelle most certainly is, but I am not sold on JB. I do remember seeing moments between JB and Jana where JB was actually able to drop his QF hustler leanings and show her real, genuine, love and affection. The ones that stick out most was how appreciative he was when she made the slideshow for Jimmy Lee's funeral, and how he tried to sooth her and the rest of the kids after the Jubilee fiasco. I really don't see JB having any real tenderness toward Josh. I also think a good case can be made that he also just can't stand Josiah.

JB and Michelle both suck for creating an orphanage, not a family. There is no way anyone from the middle boys down has had any real parenting put into them by their actual biological parents.

Like Mrs2004 said, it is statistically impossible that all 19 kids from that family are going to tow the QF line for the rest of their natural lives.

I think he might put the boys down on a regular basis just so they know who the 'real man' is.

[miffy]

Its going to be interesting to see if JB & Michelle have the guts or even want to shun a child who doesn't live up to their expectations/stick to the fundie lifestyle.

[gustava]

Its going to be interesting to see if JB & Michelle have the guts or even want to shun a child who doesn't live up to their expectations/stick to the fundie lifestyle.

Since they ignore most of their children, shunning probably won't make much difference.

[Flossie]

The following website is interesting when it comes to learning more about the Gilbreth family after the books and the 1950 movie came out:

http://gilbrethnetwork.tripod.com/dozen.html

The person who created the site isn't a family member, but has spent a good amount of time with the family. One of the daughters, Ernestine Gilbreth Carey, provided a good deal of the information on the site.

Despite their unconventional upbringing, as the children attained adulthood, all of them graduated college and went on to have diverse lives and careers. Yet they all still remained close and got together as a family as often as they could. They seem like a pretty likable and well-grounded bunch.

[Patsy]

I think he might put the boys down on a regular basis just so they know who the 'real man' is.

Oh my god yes. He competes with them all the time. It's so transparent and pathetic.