Honest Question about Duggar Children

[bananacat]

I think that Michelle adores Josh but secretly resents all the others, even if she can't identify her own feelings about them. Josh was a wanted baby. The others were technically "planned" in that she wasn't trying to not get pregnant, but she had them out of guilt and fear rather than directly wanting them. She probably felt, and might still feel, like they are penance for what she sees as murdering Caleb. She had them to atone for her sin and clearly became overwhelmed soon enough. She may have even actually enjoyed them as babies but as soon as they can crawl and walk, they become much more work. And the whole time she felt like she couldn't complain because of what she had done. She probably also had a very different plan for her life as a conservative Christian mother of 2.5 children, and many of her dreams were no longer possible after even 6 or 7 kids. So I can see how it would be hard for her to get close to any other than Josh.

I agree that Jim Bob sees the older boys as competitors for the alpha male position. I think he is fond of some of his daughters, especially the older ones, but I think he views women and girls as some alien species that he can never really relate to as people, and that has made it difficult for him to get close to any of them. The same dynamic played out in my family which was not fundie at all. I was my dad's "favorite" over my two brothers and as I got older he loved to brag about how great I am, going to modelling school and even doing something considered masculine like going to a good school for engineering. But I never felt like he could really connect with me and it was quite awkward to be alone with him, especially when I was younger and still needed an adult to care for me. I don't think he ever really loved me or my brothers and I'm now estranged from him, but I can see a lot of the same traits in Jim Bob.

[JenniferJuniper]

I think that Michelle adores Josh but secretly resents all the others, even if she can't identify her own feelings about them. Josh was a wanted baby. The others were technically "planned" in that she wasn't trying to not get pregnant, but she had them out of guilt and fear rather than directly wanting them. She probably felt, and might still feel, like they are penance for what she sees as murdering Caleb. She had them to atone for her sin and clearly became overwhelmed soon enough. She may have even actually enjoyed them as babies but as soon as they can crawl and walk, they become much more work. And the whole time she felt like she couldn't complain because of what she had done. She probably also had a very different plan for her life as a conservative Christian mother of 2.5 children, and many of her dreams were no longer possible after even 6 or 7 kids. So I can see how it would be hard for her to get close to any other than Josh.

You could be on to something. It would certainly explain why she doesn't even seem to have a bond with any of her oldest daughters.

It's a bit of a paradox. If everything was left up to God (or the wants and needs of JB's pecker) than none of the 18 following Caleb were planned and perhaps not necessarily wanted by Michelle. Now that her pregnancy addiction has been stopped cold turkey (and I think it was more of a collection and notoriety thing eventually for her. Wow! Look at her, so many kids and pregnant again!) I wonder if she ever looks at all of those kids and consciously thinks, "What have we done?"

[Rescinded and Mended]

Jim Bob is such a narcissist that his motivations for how he views his children are easy to read. He is surrounded by a group of pretty, vivacious young women who have been trained from birth to adore and regard him as the head of their spiritual lives. Of course he prefers them! The boys, on the other hand, are competition to him in any of his endeavors, and since the eventual plan is for them to be patriarchs of their own lives and households in the future, then Jim Bob, by default, will be removed from the equation as the spiritual center of their beliefs and lives. He has no reason to regard them as anything but expendable.

I agree that in Michelle's case, it's definitely more complicated. It could certainly be a case of secret resentment for all kids born after Josh. Her only real focus has been on having many children for the Quiverfull movement, not building relationships with them. It's made it all the easier to see every child after Josh as "help" rather than as children to love and nurture.

[Closed Womb]

I know atheist women who have blamed themselves for abusive relationships. It's cultural. Women in our society are raised to believe they are solely responsible for the health of relationships.

This doesn't mean the Duggar women don't understand the basic perils of what would essentially be an arranged marriage in a patriarchal world. Michelle and Boob (and TLC) would have us believe deep down they are still the sheltered frumper girls of old. I don't believe they are. Sheltered still to an extent, yes, but not oblivious. And the older they get, the less oblivious they'll likely be.

I'm sure they've had Gothard men show interest in them. Boob and the show aside, they're all attractive and at least of average intelligence. And they can fundie-cook and raise babies. So who is holding things up? Jim Bob or the daughters? Maybe some combination of both?

Agreed to the bolded, but that is not what I was referencing.

In my experience, most women can recognize abuse in another relationship (if they have enough information.) Generally speaking, women will believe that the abused woman does not deserve it, no matter how much the abused woman thinks she is the cause.

However, many fundie-lite women that I have known can recognize abuse (or even just marital unhappiness) and assume that (a) the woman involved is doing something/did something to disobey/anger God and, thus, cause the problem and (b) since they are in touch with God, holy unto God, listen to God, whatever, they are immune from the same reality. With my many years ingratiated into the church world, this was a very common belief among women who were not at all sheltered; working women, professional woman, etc. I've to this day never met a SAHD.

There just seems to be a general head-in-the-sand, this won't happen to me because God and I are tight attitude. Or at least there was among my Fundie lite crowd some 15-20 years ago.

[Coconut Flan]

I think it was more of a collection and notoriety thing eventually for her. Wow! Look at her, so many kids and pregnant again!) I wonder if she ever looks at all of those kids and consciously thinks, "What have we done?"

I agree that Michelle is now questioning some of their life decisions. She seemed concerned in that pretend marriage counseling episode that things were off the rails with the children and possibly heading worse if they didn't do something. I remember her saying God had given them a heart for children as if it wasn't something she really wanted or desired but now felt she had to do. I think maybe she's exhausted and with no handy excuse in the form of a pregnancy to have a reason to be cosseted and with older daughters ready for lives of their own, she's awakening to the huge burden of bringing up a dozen kids on her own.

[Rainytown]

So that made me curious about whether that kind of discontent springs up suddenly, or brews for most of the kid's childhood, etc.

I am an ex-fundie. (Fundie light, according to this board.) I started attending an Assembly of God church in my early teens and finally left in my mid-20's. I went to church because the difference between church and my out-of-control family was attractive at the time. During the church years, I attended the Gothard seminar (Institute in Basic Youth Conflicts) several years in a row. I also attended a Bible college.

Leaving my church happened over a period of years, but going to Bible college accelerated the situation. If the Duggars allowed their children to engage in the same activities other teens/young adults do, there would be defections, IMHO. When one goes into the workforce, for instance, one meets a variety of people from many different backgrounds. When it becomes evident that the vast majority who don't believe the same as you do do not sport horns and a tail, doubt begins. Imagine what happens when one becomes friends with these non-believers, or meets a man or woman they'd like to do more with than ask their father to "vet" them for a possible courtship. There's a whole world outside of those church doors. I also discovered I was much happier without the constant oppression of having to answer to people in my church for my every thought and activity.

The biggest reason I left the church, though -- I realized that I no longer believed the things I was being told were true from the pulpit. Life is not black and white. A thinking adult realizes that their daily choices come from their own morality, not something pounded into them by controlling parents and an omnipresent church.

The Duggar children have had chances in life other teens/young adults would love to have. They've traveled on someone else's dime to other countries. They have the money to pursue higher education or learn a trade. Allegedly. Unfortunately, their parents have ensured they have no chance to pursue those dreams by their refusal to equip their kids with even a rudimentary education and tying them to the home by forcing them to raise their younger siblings. Any rebellion or desire for freedom has been dealt with swiftly and harshly. (Journey to the Heart? Hmmm....)

It would be interesting to see what would happen if one of those kids decided to give an interview to People magazine, for instance, in exchange for enough money to make sure they could get out of that house and move on with their lives.

[ljohnson2006]

I think that the older girls resent their mom, and possibly Smugger. I think that they feel stuck with raising the siblings that they're buddied with. I think the house would go to Hell if the older girls left. J'Chelle and Boob know nothing about parenting their own kids. The Duggars are lazy, and would rather pass their children onto the older ones to raise, than take the time and energy to do it themselves. That's so sad. If J'Chelle didn't want to raise 19 kids past infancy, why did she have so many? She's an idiot! God didn't tell you to have 19 kids. You chose to, because you think that the pill caused you to lose one of your precious babies. Maybe they should've got some real information about BC before they made the choice not to use it. There are other methods besides the pill.

[scc12]

I think the whole birth control issue was a political move,which was Jim Bob's idea to begin with.I'm not saying they didn't feel guilty after the so-called 'Christain Dr.' (with an agenda) guilt-tripped them into believing they'd killed their baby by using the pill,(when that could never have been proved conclusively) ...BUT there's always a line missing there,whenever I read their account of losing their baby,via blaming the pill...it's this: they COULD have easily said they stopped using the pill for b/c when they found it MIGHT (not did) have caused Michelle to miscarry,BUT....they then decided against ALL forms of b/c,including hormone-free ones.(like the condom).

But they didn't say that!

That Jim Bob and Michelle purposely lumped ALL forms of b/c together,without differentiating,screams AGENDA to me,just like the DR. who guilt-tripped them.

BTW--------If any Dr had EVER guilt-tripped me into thinking I'd caused a miscarriage via the pill...I'm quite sure my husb. would have had quite a word for him! (or her).

Frankly I think any dr who would dare do such a thing as guilt-tripping a pt for his own agenda should have his license revoked! There is just NO way to test that miscarried pregnancy and tell for sure if it was caused by the pill.(esp. given the fact they didn't have the remains,like they did w Jubilee).That's just pure speculation.Michelle might have miscarried anyway,there is just no way to tell.

Anyhow,I suspect this was around the time they decided to go QV, and they started by attacking all forms of b/c.

And I do think going qv for them was a political move on JB's part.I suspect it was all tied in together with him thinking of getting into politics at that time,even if it wasn't right then. (ie-start a big family first).And indeed,that's just what he did.He used his big family for his campaigning purposes,via Michelle taking them all door to door,having them all on-stage.etc.

This is all just my opinion.

[Feberin]

I don't know if it was a political move. Jim Bob was elected in 1999 about ten years after the miscarriage that's a long time to be planning a political statement. My guess is they stopped the pill partly because they wanted more kids but then slowly became caught up in the QF movement. I also think they never thought Michelle would be so very fertile.

[scc12]

Could be,but I do wonder when they met the Holt family,and if Mr Holt into politics at that time.I've always thought perhaps JB saw what he was doing with the big family thing and that he was into politics and wanted to emulate him.(a bit jealous,perhaps?).

Whatever they decided at that time,I do think they wrote it up on their pg as a political statement against all forms of b/c. (as well as when they talk about it).They always give the same pre-prepared answer.

[Yo Nurse]

IIRC, JB met Jim Holt while in high school. They were very good friends and had plans to sell Bibles in Kansas City. Great plan.

[Palimpsest]

I'm sorry. I tried to snip and messed up the quotes above.

In one of the conversations with the older Duggar girls about marriage and courtship, one of them started talking about "Command, Visionary and Steady" men. A very sick typology where all the blame for the failure of a marriage is laid on the woman who fails to adjust to the type of man she has married.

The Duggar girls have been observing as their contemporaries are married off, especially the Keller family. They see Anna and Josh's marriage and definitely know their brother. They would possibly see him as the "command" type, because he bosses them around and there is no category for bone idle in the typology.

They must also be able to see what Esther Shrader's life is like married to a "visionary" man. :cry:

They did not seem to be too impressed by David Waller, and they have seen Rebekah Keller (I always forget her husband's name) move from ATI/Gothard to conservative Christian. That may be tempting or scary.

The Bateses are moving away from "courtship" to a less-structured model. I can imagine that the Duggar girls and Anna are envious as hell of Erin Bates, because she at least has been given more of a chance to get to know her future husband. I'm sure they have all discussed the broken courtships and engagements of other people.

I would not blame the older Duggar girls for not wanting to jump into marriage too soon. If they have any sense they will want to delay it as long as possible.

As for the boys: If John David is looking to get hold of a house, he may be wanting to court soon. At least he seems to be a hard worker. Having a house seems to be an important step in Duggar-land before you make plans to marry. On the other hand, I've always hoped he would drift away from Gothard, taking Joseph and Josiah with him. I have nothing solid to base this hope on, except that John David always looks bored to tears at the announcement of a new blessing from his parents.

[roddma]

I too agree there is no way 19 kids believe the same way. The Keller's had far less kids and two of them left the fold. I am one of two and neither of us believe like my parents. I try to use these points on 19K Facebook. If the kids want to live at home fine but I doubt all of them want to. Didn't Jim Bob mention most people kick their kids out at 18? I think he is just trying to make excuses for the tight control on the kids.

I have no issue with young afults at home. The issue is none of the adult kids are showing signs if independence. The midwifery thing and volunteer firefighter is to make them look busy and accomplished. The Duggar humpers buy every word. I think if the family wasn't religious they would have issues with the older kids at home.