Honest Question about Duggar Children

[lizziesmom]

Why do some of you think the kids want out of their situation? I just don't see anything but compliant, brainwashed, isolated kids. Sure it's great for us to believe some of them want a different life and the exposure to the world outside the TTH has to help them see other things besides the Gothard way, but I see no signs of anyone wanting to break out. Look at Josh, he's married with three kids but one or more of his sisters are around to make sure they don't stray or say the wrong thing and report back to Boob and Mullet.

 

I think it would be wonderful, especially with the girls, to get them away from that environment, but I just think it is very unlikely to happen.

[becky4201]

I don't see it being very likely either. I'm sure they're familiar with & comfortable in their situations. It's scary to leave your family & completely change your lifestyle. I almost equate it to being in the family business.

[anjulibai]

Well, just observation, but watching Jana and listening to the things she says, I think she wants away from her family. Not to totally escape fundiedom, because she probably is too brainwashed for that, but to be able to be married and have a life of her own.

John is probably happy with how things are because he's got a fair amount of freedom to do as he wishes at this point, and he's got women to take care of most of his physical needs. If he wanted to be married, he would be. The same can be said of Joseph.

Jill is being allowed to pursue her interest in midwifery, so she probably does not want out.

Jessa and Jinger probably want out to a certain degree, but not to be wives and mothers. They are probably okay where they are now because diaper duty should be over and the Howlers and Johannah are probably old enough by now to be caring for themselves, so they have less duties in childcare. I doubt they want to go back to diapering just yet. They also now have Joy-Anna taking over a bunch of chores, so again, less duties. They're lives are much easier than they once were and I am sure they know how hard life would be to get married and start shooting out babies.

Josiah probably wants out. He seems unhappy and marginalized. I could see him leaving once he has some sort of business established and money to use.

Joy-Anna seems fairly unhappy, unless she's at some fundie event and can be around girls her own age. I think if she could she would leave, but I don't think she'd know how.

The younger kids I can't really tell, as the Howlers don't have a ton of responsibility nor have them been put down like Josiah has been (yet), and the Lost Girls are still too young for chores, so discontentment may come later.

I don't think any of them will leave fundiedom completely, but I do think a few of them would like to be living their own lives.

[church_of_dog]

Why do some of you think the kids want out of their situation? I just don't see anything but compliant, brainwashed, isolated kids. Sure it's great for us to believe some of them want a different life and the exposure to the world outside the TTH has to help them see other things besides the Gothard way, but I see no signs of anyone wanting to break out. Look at Josh, he's married with three kids but one or more of his sisters are around to make sure they don't stray or say the wrong thing and report back to Boob and Mullet.

I think it would be wonderful, especially with the girls, to get them away from that environment, but I just think it is very unlikely to happen.

I asked a related question on another thread just yesterday. What piqued my curiosity was the descriptions of folks here (FJ and similar sites) who were raised fundy and chose to leave. Those who were abused, of course no one would be surprised by anyone wanting to get out of that environment. But some posters have described leaving based on just not wanting to live that way, even if it wasn't a horrible/abusive situation.

So that made me curious about whether that kind of discontent springs up suddenly, or brews for most of the kid's childhood, etc.

It seems not uncommon with these large families that a couple of the kids take a different path. It's also been discussed how, just based on statistics alone, one would expect there to be a number of kids growing up in that culture who are gay -- and given the perspectives of the fundy-world, that by itself could easily become a reason to veer away, if the parents won't accept it.

[ari_belle]

If one leaves at any point other than to get married and have a million kids, I'd be shocked. But if one does, my money's on Joy Anna. Then again, it would probably be easier for a male to leave. Maybe down the line, the younger ones will feel more comfortable leaving.

[JenniferJuniper]

I'll go out on a limb and say that most of them will have left fundamentalism by the time they are 30.

Why? Because there is nothing there for them. Yes, Jill can play mid-wife and John can fiddle around doing whatever it is he does, but how are the other kids going to support themselves and families in a world that is rapidly changing around them? Although the FRC is despicable, Josh at least recognized that he had to try to do something other than fail at selling used cars. If he stays in DC long enough, he'll probably drop even the pretense of being a Gothardite.

Once you get past 5, 6, or 7 kids, things become very difficult to manage even with older offspring around to help. Especially when the parents are still trying to control the lives of those older offspring as well. Parents all get old and tired. My mother started checking out somewhere between kid number 3 and kid number 4. The rules that had been so important for the older kids were obsolete by the time number 5 arrived. By the time Josie turns 18, Jim Bob will be eligible for Social Security (assuming he ever paid into it).

Are they brainwashed? Yes, but only the older ones. I don't think the Duggars are sufficiently organized or in tune with their own kids to successfully brainwash the middle ones on down. Compare those kids to the ones in red shirts and frumpers that we knew 10 years ago. And it's not just the clothing. Its the control Michelle and Boob had over them. Single file, well-behaved, spouting Bible versus. Can 12 year old James spout Bible verses? When Daddy is holding his nightly Bible readings (assuming he even regularly does them) with all of those kids yelling and climbing all over the place, I tend to doubt James and the others around his age are paying much attention. And we know they aren't getting much, if any, one on one instruction in anything.

Not to mention the fact that the Duggars have seen more parts of the world than many of us can ever hope to. Yes, they are still in a somewhat cloistered situation when they travel, but they are still encountering all sorts of different people who are living happy, productive lives, some never having even heard of Jesus. It has to have an impact on some of the more intuitive kids.

Most will probably be right wing Christians, but I wouldn't rule out a rogue progressive or atheist either. Out of 19, there's bound to be at least one.

[singsingsing]

I believe that most of the kids are probably happy, or at least content, where they are. It's all they've ever known, and they've been raised to believe that they are living a special and holy life, better than the mass of sinners in 'normal' society. That being said, I would be very surprised if NONE of them ever wanted 'out' in one way or another. Just given the sheer number of them, statistically, someone's not going to want to get married and have 20 kids, or take over a used car dealership.

I have a feeling that if one or more of the kids do break with JB&Michelle's plans for them, their parents will be outwardly supportive. It's all about keeping up the image of a big happy family, so they'll find a way to spin it to their advantage. So it will be wonderful that Joy is at university because God led her there, or so nice that Jeremiah has decided to join the army because he's fighting for American values, etc. etc. etc. But they won't like it.

[CynicMom]

Some kids respond to doubts by covering them up with devotion. They might pray loud or espouse the most repugnant beliefs. This is because they're secretly unsure of these beliefs themselves and looking for feedback. I've known too many hyper-devotional kids who lost their faith. Run-of-the-mill Christians, on the other hand, seem to be vulnerable to a slow slide into fundie-dom.

[Closed Womb]

I think the girls have got to be pretty unhappy. Drawing from my own experience attending fundie-lite churches, the LORD not blessing you with a husband? That's pretty damaging to the self esteem (or, the church-driven esteem that replaces self-esteem.) It's one of the many, many crazy contradictions -- stay slim with long hair to attract a man so that the LORD can work a miracle. Is it God or Man? Anyway...

I think all of the older girls want to get away in the form of marriage/motherhood. I think that some of them would like to move to a more metropolitan area (ie, Jinger saying she want to live in the city.) I think if they get tastes of being fundie-lite, they will be easily enticed down that route (a la Josh.) I think that if it happens, it'll be a process.

I don't think they're sitting around pondering their oppression and having fantasies of leaving (the way that they're pondering the single life and praying for Godly Men [tm].)

I don't have any sort of feel for what the Duggar boys want.

[JenniferJuniper]

I think the girls have got to be pretty unhappy. Drawing from my own experience attending fundie-lite churches, the LORD not blessing you with a husband? That's pretty damaging to the self esteem (or, the church-driven esteem that replaces self-esteem.) It's one of the many, many crazy contradictions -- stay slim with long hair to attract a man so that the LORD can work a miracle. Is it God or Man? Anyway...

I think all of the older girls want to get away in the form of marriage/motherhood. I think that some of them would like to move to a more metropolitan area (ie, Jinger saying she want to live in the city.) I think if they get tastes of being fundie-lite, they will be easily enticed down that route (a la Josh.) I think that if it happens, it'll be a process.

I don't think they're sitting around pondering their oppression and having fantasies of leaving (the way that they're pondering the single life and praying for Godly Men [tm].)

I don't have any sort of feel for what the Duggar boys want.

Getting away by marrying a Boob approved Gothardite may not be actually getting away at all. In fact, given the nature of Gothardism, a daughter getting involved in an arranged marriage could potentially be walking into a very bad situation. I don't know whether these women understand this, but they may have an intuitive inkling that things could be worse for them and this could explain in part why Jana is pushing 24 and has apparently had no suitors.

I don't see too many ways around it for them. Either they marry men hand-picked by Daddy or they break away and either find their own husbands or start their own lives away from the family. Or they stay right where they are. In limbo.

[myoung790]

No one will "leave" until the money stops coming in. I do think that many of them will at some point to some degree. I don't see the howlers or the lost girls staying this strict. They aren't being raised that way.

[quinoa mama]

I think a lot of them will gradually get my worldly minded. I think we see it in Josh already. His children wear normal looking clothes. I think for hiim thebst part of Christianity is feeling superior to everyone else.

[ThatSnark]

For the girls especially, I think they've seen some of their Journey to the Heart friends live the "dream," and are now mothers-of-many in their mid-20s. Since the J'slaves have been there & done that, it's easy to imagine that they'd maybe like a few years without the responsibility of raising small children.

Anyone familiar with the Gilbreths of Cheaper by the Dozen fame? They were a family of 12 with 11 living to adulthood, and if I recall correctly, many of them did not marry, and those who did had very small families, even in a time when birth control wasn't advanced like today. The "fun" of a large family must not outweigh the reality of being lost in the crowd.

[Black Aliss]

Josiah is the one I most want to offer a safe haven to if he ever wanted to escape. The girls would probably go no further away than fundie-lite and remain close to their family but I think Josiah needs to get away from everything ATI/Duggar.

[Sailing on Europa]

I think that several of them are unhappy to some degree, but they don't KNOW they are unhappy. A concept like "Are your emotional needs being met?" would be foreign to Jana, even though she looks miserable and sad much of the time. I don't think they consciously want to leave....yet.

[IReallyAmHopewell]

I don't think any will leave while the show's still on. I image the money is tied up tight to that and a confidentiality agreement to be signed at age 18. Jim-Bob isn't that stupid.

John has pretty much left as it is. He does go on mission trips--I imagine either to cover up a courtship or to find one.

Jana has seemed miserable whenever she's been seen on tv. I have to wonder if she wanted a guy who didn't want her or if she had a plan that involved more college than College-Plus or Gothard's Verity could deliver.

Josiah and Joy-Anna have both seemed miserable for years, but they are the first to hit the teen years in the REAL WORLD--i.e. going all over the place and not just getting out once a year for an ATI event in the old motor home.

The younger ones, from Jason on down have no memory of the old days of Panda Jumpers and rubber boots as shoes. Life is probably pretty sweet for them.

[Handmaiden of Dog]

In fact, given the nature of Gothardism, a daughter getting involved in an arranged marriage could potentially be walking into a very bad situation. I don't know whether these women understand this,

Well they've had the chance to observe Josh's marriage. Sure it doesn't look too bad because they at least have money, but watching the life of Anna evolve into Joshie's baby machine and house slave has to be a bit eye-opening, especially as they have had a chance to see Anna at all hours of the day and under all sorts of stressful circumstances.

[Closed Womb]

Getting away by marrying a Boob approved Gothardite may not be actually getting away at all. In fact, given the nature of Gothardism, a daughter getting involved in an arranged marriage could potentially be walking into a very bad situation. I don't know whether these women understand this, but they may have an intuitive inkling that things could be worse for them and this could explain in part why Jana is pushing 24 and has apparently had no suitors.

I don't see too many ways around it for them. Either they marry men hand-picked by Daddy or they break away and either find their own husbands or start their own lives away from the family. Or they stay right where they are. In limbo.

I took the OP (ie, "their situation") to mean living with mom and dad at TTH. I think IF any of them think of leaving the lifestyle entirely they are immediately disabled by fear. I have no doubt that they really do believe that the world is a big, bad horrible place. ITA that they could be going from the frying pan into the fire via marriage, but I don't think they have any idea, at all, that men can be abusive. I genuinely think that they totally believe that if they love and respect their Godly, daddy-and-Gothard approved husbands, then they will be blessed with love and adoration.

[Phukktifano]

For the people I know it's roughly around the time they move out. The ones that stayed with mum and dad until they married tended to do what Josh is doing they spent all their time thinking they were better then everyone else/pretending their lifestyle was some novel experience worth trying to get others to emulate/slowly, painfully learning the basic skills your average college student takes for granted and in the meantime getting fat off of fast food and popping out kids. Or they snapped. Many of the girls would start dating a guy and be marking monthly anniversaries a few weeks in and otherwise acting like middleschoolers with a crush but now with sex, they binge drink because they've never been around people drinking alcohol responsibly. The guys tended toward stalker tendencies or complained endlessly about how women are sleeping with everyone but them. It's honestly the one thing that's made me consider if the fundies might be onto something with the whole courtship thing. Yeah it's an ugly way to do things but otherwise they're throwing their very unprepared kids into a world that looks nothing like what they've been prepared for. I would be surprised if any of the older Duggers really WANT to leave. They've seen enough of the world to know they aren't ready to handle everything that comes with independence.

[Mama Mia]

I think if NONE of the 19 rebels in some way it would be a pretty sure confirmation that they are brainwashed more than genuinely content and happy. Just statistically it would seem very improbable that out of 19 kids someone isn't gay, or wants to be a hipster or backpack alone far away or get a mohawk and a tongue piericing, or any other life choice that is out of their acceptable realm.

They have such a very narrow range of what is an acceptable lifestyle that it wouldn't be hard to step out of that range. They don't need to rob a bank or be an exotic dancer to be scandalous.

They have changed so much since the early specials that I could see the vast majority of them happily living basically by their current system, but to not have one "rebel" would be strange IMHO. Of course we might need to wait until Jackson's mid-life crises to see it.

And as a mom of a fairly large family, I totally agree with people who say that the level of control with the younger kids is going to naturally fall. Even if you don't have a zillion kids or a rigid belief system the combination of exhaustion, trying to deal with so many different needs and being worn down will do that. Partly though I think most parents relax on some things because you realize that many of the obnoxious stages kids go through are temporary, and you learn to pick your battles.

[ljohnson2006]

I think the kids want out of their family, but don't know how to assert their independence and do it. They've grown up, and know nothing but this. I think the outside world would be very overwhelming to them. I think the parents are definitely holding their kids back, but no one is doing anything about it. They're all content with their lives.

[lizziesmom]

I took the OP (ie, "their situation") to mean living with mom and dad at TTH.

That was what I was referring to -- my question really came from reading threads with offers from Fjers to try and get information to the kids on alternatives to their current lives.

[SquirrelySquirrel]

I think if NONE of the 19 rebels in some way it would be a pretty sure confirmation that they are brainwashed more than genuinely content and happy. Just statistically it would seem very improbable that out of 19 kids someone isn't gay, or wants to be a hipster or backpack alone far away or get a mohawk and a tongue piericing, or any other life choice that is out of their acceptable realm.

This. I can't imagine any type of family having 19 children who all grow up to share the exact same beliefs and lifestyle with which they were raised. That just doesn't happen, even in much smaller families.

[becky4201]

For the girls especially, I think they've seen some of their Journey to the Heart friends live the "dream," and are now mothers-of-many in their mid-20s. Since the J'slaves have been there & done that, it's easy to imagine that they'd maybe like a few years without the responsibility of raising small children.

Anyone familiar with the Gilbreths of Cheaper by the Dozen fame? They were a family of 12 with 11 living to adulthood, and if I recall correctly, many of them did not marry, and those who did had very small families, even in a time when birth control wasn't advanced like today. The "fun" of a large family must not outweigh the reality of being lost in the crowd.

Actually, all of the Gilbreth dozen (surviving 11) married & had children. Their families were small though, some had 3, a few had 2 and one of the daughters had 4. There wound up being 29 Gilbreth grandchildren.

[RosyDaisy]

As far as the older Duggar women getting married....I think the pickings are pretty slim. I just don't think there are enough men out there who own their own business and are capable of supporting a wife and kids. JB, Michelle, and their generation of Gothardites had it a little easier in that most of them attended public school and had a decent job. But now fundie men are expected to own their own business. SODART doesn't prepare them for running a business properly in most cases. And, what businesses they are capable of running probably doesn't provide enough income to support themselves and a wife much less kids. I think some of the unmarried fundie women we see have figured that out, as well as their fathers.