Pope: "Who am I to judge gay people?"

[ladyaudley]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-23489702

baby steps (the "lobbying" argument is still ridiculous"), but still. Between that and Tutu's statement, I'm baffled.

[wild little fox]

And the world got a little better :)

[FakePigtails]

I want to be optimistic, but all I can see are the uber-Catholics declaring that his words were taken out of context and we still need to hate the sin (via not allowing gay rights and continuing to declare "the gay lifestyle" to be a terrible thing), blah blah blah. Like we've seen when popes have made progressive statements before.

[kpmom]

Is this much different than the Church's stance that, yes, gay people exist and should be accepted, but must be celibate?

He went on to say the Church still teaches homosexuality (the practice of) is a sin.

[louisa05]

I think that the 'uber-Catholics' also known as the church's right-wing are not going to change regardless. They disliked Francis the moment he stepped on to the balcony without the fancy red cape and jewel encrusted cross. The far right wing (those who want Latin mass and such) are even harder to please or change.

But the more moderate people are going to at least take a moment to think about the kind of judgementalism that has defined the church in regard to so many issues. And there is no bad news in that. I have seen the tone of our senior pastor's homilies change since this pope was elected. He seems emboldened to say what he really wants to say about how the church must respond to injustice (and I used to work with him when I taught in Catholic school...so I know that these are not new ideas to him, just things that weren't said from the pulpit as the word from Rome was pretty much all legalism and mostly anti-abortion. And our associate priest who was preaching legalistic crap and anti-abortion almost every single homily has got off that stuff almost entirely and begun to focus on the actual scripture readings. Both have quoted Francis, so I have no doubt that his focus is influencing their focus. The associate's series on "how you are not behaving appropriately at mass" ended abruptly with the election of a pope who seems to believe that the main thing is that Catholics come to mass.

The Catholic church changes slowly. But these are indeed baby steps in a better direction. And to answer kpmom--yes, this is not a change in theology but could very well help a change in practice and help to stop the undercurrent of homophobia among some people in the pews. It will help eliminate the right-wing talking points of demonizing gay people. At a catechists meeting at my parish last week, one of the teachers in the group pointed out that the call to love and serve that Francis has focused on should make us think twice before wanting to take rights from any group and that perhaps what we should teach our teens about gay marriage is that it should be a civil right but that does not make it or any civil marriage a sacrament. This from a conservative woman who is very much a leader in the parish. This statement from the pope only gives her more back up to speak some compassion to this issue in the church.

[rward]

Is this much different than the Church's stance that, yes, gay people exist and should be accepted, but must be celibate?

He went on to say the Church still teaches homosexuality (the practice of) is a sin.

This pope is . . . different. Will he change the RCC as a whole? HAHAHAHAHAHA- no. But for a time, he'll make it kinder. And, he has a bug up his butt about pedophile priests, so that's nice.

[Marianne]

Hey, pope, can you say this to this marcher and rioters (?) of the "Manif pour tous" (Manifestation for all, in opposition with the "Mariage pour tous", "wedding for all"), who are in our street since december and who loves shout their hate of LGBT ? I'm so tired of this.

[Jinger Jar]

When this showed up on my news feed, I ran over to my two favorite fora for right wing Catholics: Catholic Answers and Fisheaters. Both sites are quite alive with discussion. Of course, the mods at both places will not allow overt, outright criticism of Frances, but if you read between the lines, folks really ain't pleased. "Judging? The word has lost all meaning, so I'm not really sure what he's saying here." and "I'm waiting for an official statement from the Vatican for clarification." and "I don't trust the accuracy of any mainstream media source, so who even knows if that's what he really said." You get the gist...

Schadenfreude, yes, but my bitter, jaded little heart is gleeful this morning. :D

[louisa05]

Hey, pope, can you say this to this marcher and rioters (?) of the "Manif pour tous" (Manifestation for all, in opposition with the "Mariage pour tous", "wedding for all"), who are in our street since december and who loves shout their hate of LGBT ? I'm so tired of this.

I really think this will embolden more priests and lay leaders to teach that we cannot shout hate to the world.

I also like that he pointed out that the church has paid too little attention to the women of the Gospels and their very important roles. If he can inspire or even mandate that more theology, preaching and study is devoted to that, it could have a very positive impact. Especially in places where women do not have any roles of importance in their parishes and are banned from participating in the mass as readers, servers, or EMHCs.

jinger jar--LOL! I was just going to see what kind of handwringing was going on at Catholic Answers. I'm sure it is nothing compared to Rorate Caeli where they were already losing their shit over the bishops at WYD participating in the flash mob dance--something that clearly portends the end of the church. :roll:

[ceg045]

Is this much different than the Church's stance that, yes, gay people exist and should be accepted, but must be celibate?

He went on to say the Church still teaches homosexuality (the practice of) is a sin.

Exactly. I don't think this is anything particularly new or groundbreaking. The church has accepted that homosexuality is not a choice for some time now--gay people (be they religious or laity) being "out" isn't an issue--but issues of gay partnership/relationships (sex, marriage, etc.) are still very much verboten.

[Mela99]

It makes me giggle that they want a clarified, official statement instead of trusting what the HF said. I guess that only counts if they say something you agree with.

Here's hoping the crazy ass right fringe of my church gets it thru their heads that jesus wasn't an asshole.

[luv2run]

This is one of my biggest issues in being a Catholic myself. The hard core, you-aren't-doing-it-right who are willing to take away everyone's civil rights, and stand outside with pictures of aborted fetuses. I'm a convert, and I love my faith, but there are just some places I won't go, and things I won't do...because if I do, I am not living the Gospel. I am not showing love or mercy.

That being said, I love Francis.

Some in the Church, however, do not. I know they will go around saying he said things otherwise due to translation issues.

[louisa05]

This is one of my biggest issues in being a Catholic myself. The hard core, you-aren't-doing-it-right who are willing to take away everyone's civil rights, and stand outside with pictures of aborted fetuses. I'm a convert, and I love my faith, but there are just some places I won't go, and things I won't do...because if I do, I am not living the Gospel. I am not showing love or mercy.

That being said, I love Francis.

Some in the Church, however, do not. I know they will go around saying he said things otherwise due to translation issues.

I know a few people who I expect will soon declare that Benedict's resignation was invalid and that he is a usurper and has no authority. They are not happy. I really don't blame them. They were happy and secure in their legalism and nothing from Rome suggested they need to be anything more than the best at kneeling, praying, receiving the eucharist on their tongues instead of in their hands, and feeling morally superior to everyone else. Then this guy comes along and has the audacity to not talk about that and instead ask them if they are really loving ALL of their neighbors. It has to be truly upsetting. No one likes to have their self-righteousness questioned.

[PennySycamore]

OT, but I love how Mela99 posted right after ceg045 and they both have GrumpyCat in their avatars!

[Jinger Jar]

Exactly. I don't think this is anything particularly new or groundbreaking. The church has accepted that homosexuality is not a choice for some time now--gay people (be they religious or laity) being "out" isn't an issue--but issues of gay partnership/relationships (sex, marriage, etc.) are still very much verboten.

I only wish that were always the case. Being gay still keeps good men out of the seminary. And not five years ago, the pastor of the largest parish in my diocese was defrocked by his bishop after he came out to his parishioners and preached several homilies in favor of increased acceptance of gays and lesbians in the Church. This is a parish with more than 4,000 registered families and, his plight caused a massive stink. If memory serves, he became an Episcopal priest after his laicization.

[louisa05]

jinger jar--As I understood it, that is exactly the kind of situation the pope implied should not be happening. So maybe we will see some progress.

[Jinger Jar]

I know a few people who I expect will soon declare that Benedict's resignation was invalid and that he is a usurper and has no authority. They are not happy. I really don't blame them. They were happy and secure in their legalism and nothing from Rome suggested they need to be anything more than the best at kneeling, praying, receiving the eucharist on their tongues instead of in their hands, and feeling morally superior to everyone else. Then this guy comes along and has the audacity to not talk about that and instead ask them if they are really loving ALL of their neighbors. It has to be truly upsetting. No one likes to have their self-righteousness questioned.

To the bolded: I think is is where all of this is heading, too. I know one family in my offline life who left their home parish for an FSSP parish in the wake of Frances' election, and I've read much chatter about "How can we get the SSPX in our community?" on rad trad blogs.

[luv2run]

OMG the SSPX. Don't get me started. Got some people

in hubby's side of the family with that. My MIL and some of his sisters actually got up and left their funeral Mass

it got so bad with them. She was shaking in the

Church parking lot she was so upset with them.

[luv2run]

Sorry hit send too soon. It was DH's grandmothers funeral. His grandparents, mainly the grandfather, is in

with them

[PennySycamore]

I only wish that were always the case. Being gay still keeps good men out of the seminary. And not five years ago, the pastor of the largest parish in my diocese was defrocked by his bishop after he came out to his parishioners and preached several homilies in favor of increased acceptance of gays and lesbians in the Church. This is a parish with more than 4,000 registered families and, his plight caused a massive stink. If memory serves, he became an Episcopal priest after his laicization.

Good for him on becoming an Episcopal priest!

[ceg045]

I only wish that were always the case. Being gay still keeps good men out of the seminary. And not five years ago, the pastor of the largest parish in my diocese was defrocked by his bishop after he came out to his parishioners and preached several homilies in favor of increased acceptance of gays and lesbians in the Church. This is a parish with more than 4,000 registered families and, his plight caused a massive stink. If memory serves, he became an Episcopal priest after his laicization.

Perhaps in practice, but not in doctrine. Being gay is theoretically fine in terms of Catholic canon law; you just can't "act" on said feelings sexually. Which, don't get me wrong, is bullshit, but a gay priest living a celibate life is not "against" doctrine in any way.

[Arete]

I would have loved to be a fly on the wall at that defrocking to hear how they justified it. There are plenty of gay priests in the Catholic and Orthodox world. Being gay in and of itself is not a barrier to ordination in either denomination's cannon law. The sticking point is that all gay priests have to be celibate.

Typical evil bullshit under Ratzinger. Play musical chairs with the pedophiles, but let some homophobic bishop run a gay man right out of the priesthood. :roll:

[Cran]

I don't think he said anything new or spectacular. "Hate the sin, love the sinner" is, after all, not so exciting new.

And he answered the question if women could be priests with a charming "That door is closed".

I really don't see why so many people are so in love with him, it seems like the nobel prize for Obama - a bit too soon. Yes, he lives a very modest life, but what has he actually done?

[FreeJosie]

Francis is an improvement over Benedict for sure.

[Patsy]

I don't think he said anything new or spectacular. "Hate the sin, love the sinner" is, after all, not so exciting new.

And he answered the question if women could be priests with a charming "That door is closed".

I really don't see why so many people are so in love with him, it seems like the nobel prize for Obama - a bit too soon. Yes, he lives a very modest life, but what has he actually done?

Exactly. He once again said something that sounds nice but doesn't mean anything (and certainly not what you first hope it means), and once again didn't follow it up with any particular action. Wow, how impressive.