Pope: "Who am I to judge gay people?"

[NurseNell]

I'm a lifelong Catholic who feels hopeful again with Pope Francis at the helm. (It's Francis, masculine, not Frances, feminine). The last progressive pope was John XXXIII. In many ways Francis reminds of Archbishop Oskar Romero of El Salvador, and that is a good thing.

[2xx1xy1JD]

I'm far from an expert on the Catholic church, but areas of genuine change in policy and direction seem to be:

1. Allowing gay celibate priests, and not just straight celibate priests.

Pope Benedict XVI signed a document in 2005 that said men with deep-rooted homosexual tendencies should not be priests.

But Pope Francis said gay clergymen should be forgiven and their sins forgotten.

2. Comments on youth protesting in Brazil:

Asked about the recent protests by young people on the streets of Brazil, the Pope said: "The young person is essentially a non-conformist, and this is very beautiful.

"It is necessary to listen to young people, give them places to express themselves and to be careful that they aren't manipulated."

3. Saying women should play a bigger role, although ruling out ordination.

It's not a total revolution. It's not even a revisiting of the total ban on all abortions, or allowing contraception other than roulette NFP, or making a clear statement that the life of the mother is paramount. It is, however, better than Benedict, and it hopefully signals a change in direction. The Vatican can really only change in baby steps, because the most liberal, radical priests would never advance far enough to be chosen as Pope. My hope would be that this is a signal that more progressives would have access to the Vatican, and that the arch-conservatives that Benedict was courting will lose favor.

[louisa05]

I'm a lifelong Catholic who feels hopeful again with Pope Francis at the helm. (It's Francis, masculine, not Frances, feminine). The last progressive pope was John XXXIII. In many ways Francis reminds of Archbishop Oskar Romero of El Salvador, and that is a good thing.

Exactly. And he has taken some action but I think that to those not in the church, the things he has done do not seem as big of a deal as they are. Holy Thursday service at a juvenile prison with women included in the foot washing was a major departure from tradition that made a bold statement about the place of women and those on the fringes. Visiting Lampedusa made a major statement about immigration and the oppressed. And I also think people outside the church are less likely to understand that the power of symbolism to the church as a whole is much bigger than it is in our every day culture. As I said before, I have observed a definite change of tone in how my own priests preach since Francis' election and it is a change for the better.

I do think we will see him affect some changes in the church. But we have to remember the man has only had the job for four and half months. He is still getting his bearings. Popes don't get a couple of months to assemble a transition team and make plans; they just get a little time to pray and change clothes. Give him a little time.

[Arete]

How was Benedict able to ram that interpretation regarding "deep rooted homosexual tendencies" through? Oh yeah, the Pope is infallible, even if there is no precedent in Canon Law. God, that man was truly a monster.

[PennySycamore]

I would have loved to be a fly on the wall at that defrocking to hear how they justified it. There are plenty of gay priests in the Catholic and Orthodox world. Being gay in and of itself is not a barrier to ordination in either denomination's cannon law. The sticking point is that all gay priests have to be celibate.

Typical evil bullshit under Ratzinger. Play musical chairs with the pedophiles, but let some homophobic bishop run a gay man right out of the priesthood. :roll:

The priest that baptized our oldest daughter is gay.

[Mela99]

OT, but I love how Mela99 posted right after ceg045 and they both have GrumpyCat in their avatars!

Bahahaha!

One of life's serendipitous delights.

[louisa05]

How was Benedict able to ram that interpretation regarding "deep rooted homosexual tendencies" through? Oh yeah, the Pope is infallible, even if there is no precedent in Canon Law. God, that man was truly a monster.

My thoughts on Benedict were firmly in the 'don't let the door hit you' camp. I'm glad he resigned so that I did not have to cope with the twinge of guilt that I would have felt over being happy when he died and the church got to replace him.

But he didn't get to put that particular matter through because of infallibility. That is not how infallibility works. The pope's every action or proclamation is not considered infallible. Infallibility is only in matters of faith and doctrine and a papal decree is only infallible if it is specifically declared to be. That particular action was not issued as a matter of doctrine or dogma and not declared infallible. Which, for the record, leaves it as something very easy for Francis to discontinue or ignore.

[gypsygirl22]

To the bolded: I think is is where all of this is heading, too. I know one family in my offline life who left their home parish for an FSSP parish in the wake of Frances' election, and I've read much chatter about "How can we get the SSPX in our community?" on rad trad blogs.

What does FSSP and SSPX mean?

[ceg045]

But he didn't get to put that particular matter through because of infallibility. That is not how infallibility works. The pope's every action or proclamation is not considered infallible. Infallibility is only in matters of faith and doctrine and a papal decree is only infallible if it is specifically declared to be. That particular action was not issued as a matter of doctrine or dogma and not declared infallible.

Thank you for mentioning this. I think there's a lot of confusion about what papal infallibility means--just because the pope says something doesn't mean it's church policy.

[louisa05]

What does FSSP and SSPX mean?

FSSP = Fraternitas Sacerdotalis Sancti Petri (Priestly Fraternity of Saint Peter)

SSPX = Society of St Pius X

Both are fringe traditionalist groups that would like to repeal all the changes brought by Vatican II, starting first and foremost with the Novus Ordo or "ordinary form" of the mass. "Ordinary form" refers to the mass being said in the vernacular rather than Latin. FFSP remains within the church while SSPX is currently outside the bounds of Rome. FFSP seeks to train and ordain priests who will only use the Latin mass and adhere to traditionalist views.

[Jinger Jar]

It wasn't just PBXVI who made statements against gay priests and seminarians, although he obviously was the most prominent and important. Too many bishops essentially said that the root of the Church's appalling problem of sheltering child molesters was the ordination of gays. If gay priests and seminarians were discovered and rooted out of the Church, everything would be peachy again. :wtf:

It was so bad that when the bishop of the Diocese of Spokane spoke out in '05 or '06 and said that it was possible for gay priests to have Spirit-filled pastoral ministries in parishes, I just waited for the Vatican to announce that he'd been fired. Other bishops were apoplectic over his words, saying that he was very wrong, which is rare because bishops usually don't sharply criticize each other publicly.

For those who say that Francis (thanks, Nurse Nell It's what I deserve for getting on the computer before I've had my morning coffee. :lol: ) isn't moving fast enough or isn't going far enough, to someone who's sat in the pews for years discouraged and disheartened over some of the vile things being said about their brothers and sisters in Christ, just hearing a pope say, "Who am I to judge?" feels like the Church has done a 180.

[NurseNell]

For those who say that Francis (thanks, Nurse Nell It's what I deserve for getting on the computer before I've had my morning coffee. :lol: ) isn't moving fast enough or isn't going far enough, to someone who's sat in the pews for years discouraged and disheartened over some of the vile things being said about their brothers and sisters in Christ, just hearing a pope say, "Who am I to judge?" feels like the Church has done a 180.

No Jinger, it wasn't just you using Frances.

Interestingly I was reading a novel where one of the main characters was Frank, aka Frances. Then halfway through the book it changed to Francis. I sent the author a note and asked what happened. She said "oops".