The Royal Baby Is Here! It's a BOY!

[WonderingInWA]

My mum believed this when the Royal weans were little. (Not the Icke part - that is just mental.) But that Harry wasn't Charles's kid.

Now he's older he looks like Phillip and she has lost her belief :)

According to Diana's own account, their marriage was faithful in the intimate sense until after Harry was born. I don't think either Charles or Diana would have taken the risk to screw that up -- he needed an heir and the spare, and they both knew that. But she has said after Harry was born, their relationship changed dramatically and I've always taken that to mean that the succession was secured and they could go on about drifting apart and taking on lovers.

[scc12]

According to Diana's own account, their marriage was faithful in the intimate sense until after Harry was born. I don't think either Charles or Diana would have taken the risk to screw that up -- he needed an heir and the spare, and they both knew that. But she has said after Harry was born, their relationship changed dramatically and I've always taken that to mean that the succession was secured and they could go on about drifting apart and taking on lovers.

that makes sense,thx.

[lizziesmom]

Hewitt has also denied knowing (in any sense, including biblical) Diana until after Harry was born. I don't think he'd even met her.

[Mama Mia]

Yes, it takes two people who are both carriers, and it can skip many generations.

Realistically, given that Diana was descended from the Stuart kings (on the wrong side of the blanket, obviously) and they were descended from Margaret, sister to Henry VIII, that famous red-head; and that Charles was descended from the Stuart kings on the right side of the blanket, the expression of the gene is not that surprising when you look at the genealogy.

It's extremely complex, given how many times the British monarchy ended up in the hands of remote cousins etc (George I comes to mind) but it's definitely not impossible for them to have produced a red-headed child just on their genetics alone, with no other admixture of red-headed genes from the multiple families who married in.

@OK :lol: I know. Suddenly made me realise how well he'd go with Lauren! :lol:

So true about the red hair. My aunt and uncle were olive skinned, black hair and brown eyes and I have two cousins with gorgeous flaming red hair. If you didn't know the family you would have never guessed they were biologically related.

[HOTW]

Diana;s sister Sarah and her brother both have red hair so is it any surprise. There was a comment made that Charles said"Oh he's got red hair when harry was born" but noone can be sure if it was a negative comment or not. there is a lot of negativity in th eUK towards ginger hair, so perhaps that was the basis for th ecomment> It doesn't seem to have done harry any harm. Although he has looked a lot like his Uncle Edward at times and then aagain like his Spencer forebears as well

[kpmom]

Diana;s sister Sarah and her brother both have red hair so is it any surprise. There was a comment made that Charles said"Oh he's got red hair when harry was born" but noone can be sure if it was a negative comment or not. there is a lot of negativity in th eUK towards ginger hair, so perhaps that was the basis for th ecomment> It doesn't seem to have done harry any harm. Although he has looked a lot like his Uncle Edward at times and then aagain like his Spencer forebears as well

Why the negativity against red hair, HOTW?

[RosyDaisy]

there is a lot of negativity in th eUK towards ginger hair,

Why? I don't understand this.

[AuntCloud]

I guess the Weasley twins gave red hair a bad rap.

[purpleeee]

Why? I don't understand this.

I've never understood either - it's a disgusting prejudice with roots in the mists of time (aka medieval or further back). It's a very real thing in the UK though and there's still a ton of bullying. Wiki has some stuff: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_hair#P ... t_redheads

[RachelB]

Why? I don't understand this.

There's a greater concentration of red hair among people with Scottish and Irish people than with English background, no? I've seen just enough movies to suggest that Londoners (at least in certain time periods) treated Scottish and Irish people as if they were uneducated rubes (despite the fact that a disproportionate number of the interesting thinkers I learned about in my British lit class were actually Scottish or Irish in background).

I imagine that British attempts to colonize Ireland probably had something to do with those stereotypes, too. It's easier to argue that you should take over somebody's land if you can convince yourself that they are uncultured enough to need your help.

[latraviata]

I've never understood either - it's a disgusting prejudice with roots in the mists of time (aka medieval or further back). It's a very real thing in the UK though and there's still a ton of bullying. Wiki has some stuff: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_hair#P ... t_redheads

Not only in the UK. When I attended convent school 60 years ago, red hair was from the devil. So was being left handedness. I had both, not the bright red like Harry, but a sort of chestnut, but certainly reddish going with freckles and a very fair skin and I am left handed. The nuns certainly made my life miserable because of the hair and 'wrong' handedness.

[Coconut Flan]

I don't like the use of the term ginger either. It comes across to me as having derogatory connotations.

[Artemis]

The prejudice against red hair in Judaeo-Christian countries ultimately stems from the mediaeval association of red hair with being Jewish, and specifically with Judas Iscariot, who betrayed Christ being supposed to have had red hair. In Victorian times it was sometimes referred to as 'Judas-coloured' hair. It was therefore associated with a persecuted and hated minority, and also with the betrayer of Jesus.

Hence the stigma. Stereotypical Jews in Victorian literature - Fagin, for example - were often red-haired.

Apparently it is a genetic trait of Ashkenazim, just as it is of Celts.

[Dollypeeps]

I didn't know that artemis interesting as I am a ginger also and it was bright flame ginger as a baby.

I also don't mind the term ginger myself in fact I am sometimes known as irn bru (fizzy drink in Scotland)because of my colouring of hair. I also have never been bullied over my hair either but that might be the temper I have :lol:

[Rosie]

The prejudice against red hair in Judaeo-Christian countries ultimately stems from the mediaeval association of red hair with being Jewish, and specifically with Judas Iscariot, who betrayed Christ being supposed to have had red hair. In Victorian times it was sometimes referred to as 'Judas-coloured' hair. It was therefore associated with a persecuted and hated minority, and also with the betrayer of Jesus.

Hence the stigma. Stereotypical Jews in Victorian literature - Fagin, for example - were often red-haired.

Apparently it is a genetic trait of Ashkenazim, just as it is of Celts.

Yes. DH, an Ashkenazi Jew, has red hair, as do I (Irish background with a smidge of Swedish).

Both of our kids have red hair.

[fundiemental]

Why? I don't understand this.

People must ne envious. Red hair is pretty cool. Actually, I think it has to do with old superstitions persisting. Maybe. "The Roots of Desire" explains it.

[Irishy]

Loads of gingers here in Ireland. Catherine Tate is hilarious on the subject.

http://youtu.be/F_DVHUEjnuU

[latraviata]

The prejudice against red hair in Judaeo-Christian countries ultimately stems from the mediaeval association of red hair with being Jewish, and specifically with Judas Iscariot, who betrayed Christ being supposed to have had red hair. In Victorian times it was sometimes referred to as 'Judas-coloured' hair. It was therefore associated with a persecuted and hated minority, and also with the betrayer of Jesus.

Hence the stigma. Stereotypical Jews in Victorian literature - Fagin, for example - were often red-haired.

Apparently it is a genetic trait of Ashkenazim, just as it is of Celts.

My maternal grandmother was French Sephardic jewish and had the same hair colour as I had (gray now)

[alba]

I guess the Weasley twins gave red hair a bad rap.

The Weasleys (all nine of them) were given red hair BECAUSE red hair has a bad reputation - that's also why their surname is suspiciously similar to the word "weasel", both things the author likes but that have a bad reputation in the UK.

Prejudice against redheads is so widespread that when the Doctor, upon reincarnating, lamented the fact that he STILL wasn't ginger, parents of ginger children complained that Doctor Who was discriminating against redheads. I can only assume they were so used to their children being mocked that they couldn't possibly conceive of a television character actually wanting red hair.

[OnceModestTwiceShy]

Wow, never knew that about red hair. Probably because I grew up in the Boston area...my redheaded Jewish cousins are usually mistaken for Irish!

[RosyDaisy]

There a lots of redheads in my family. In fact my youngest niece gets a lot of complements for her natural fire red curly hair. The one and only beauty pageant she entered she won prettiest hair. This was a community beauty pageant, nothing like the glitzy kiddie pageants on TV.

Anyway, I have never associated having red hair with being Jewish. That's interesting. I've always thought of using the word "ginger" by people in the UK for a redhead as cute. I guess it isn't? When I here ginger, I think of the spice, ale, and of course FJ.....LOL! This begs the question....is there anything people aren't bigoted about?

[AuntCloud]

Artemis, thank you for your post! Add me to the list of those who never associated red hair with being Jewish. I have red-headed cousins on both sides, all have parents and siblings with plain brown hair, and DH's grandma was red-headed. I always thought this is evidence of some Cossack blood mixed with our Jewish gene pool, but apparently the red is inherent. I was fully expecting a red-headed baby but that didn't happen.

Red is conspicuous, as are curls in a mostly straight-haired environment. Anything conspicuous attracts attention, and sometimes the wrong kind of attention.

[alba]

There a lots of redheads in my family. In fact my youngest niece gets a lot of complements for her natural fire red curly hair. The one and only beauty pageant she entered she won prettiest hair. This was a community beauty pageant, nothing like the glitzy kiddie pageants on TV.

Anyway, I have never associated having red hair with being Jewish. That's interesting. I've always thought of using the word "ginger" by people in the UK for a redhead as cute. I guess it isn't? When I here ginger, I think of the spice, ale, and of course FJ.....LOL! This begs the question....is there anything people aren't bigoted about?

As far as I can tell, it's not a slur or anything like that. According to the OED it was originally applied to a more sandy colour (I guess something like strawberry blonde) that resembled the colour of ground ginger, and I guess grew to encapsulate more colours of red-hued hair. Kind of like the use of the term "redheaded" to include hair that's not particularly red at all. For instance Simon Pegg would have been considered ginger under the earlier (19th C) definition (http://www.narniaweb.com/wp-content/upl ... n-pegg.jpg), but maybe not Karen Gillan (http://www.photoandwallpapers.com/wp-co ... e_role.jpg) and probably not Bonnie Wright (http://images4.fanpop.com/image/photos/ ... 6-2500.jpg), who would more accurately be described as redheaded. However, these days all of them would likely be described as "ginger" in the UK and "redheaded" in the US.

[uber frau]

In Australia 'ginger' is not a slur but it is an 'othering'. It applies to anyone with ant shade of red. The other common term 'ranga'. That one's a bit ruder-you're comparing red hair to an orang utan.

[alba]

In Australia 'ginger' is not a slur but it is an 'othering'. It applies to anyone with ant shade of red. The other common term 'ranga'. That one's a bit ruder-you're comparing red hair to an orang utan.

I've not heard "ranga"; how horrible!

In the UK, at least, "ginger" can be used to other, but isn't exclusively so. I think it depends a lot on context, and there's a difference between using it as a noun and an adjective; for instance "She has ginger hair" is just a descriptor, but "He's a ginger" is othering because it's making him into a different type of person.

Tim Minchin has a hilarious song, entitled "Prejudice" on the use of the word: