Pastor Rick Warren's son committed suicide

[starfish]

When I heard the news, I wondered if he was bipolar. One of my relatives killed herself in a violent way at the same age. She had been diagnosed as bipolar years before but had been doing so well and was faithful about taking her

meds.

I know that some pastors' children, for some reason, seem to have a difficult time. Perhaps that is just a myth but it can't be easy to be scrutinized in such a public way.

My sympathies to the Warren family. I don't agree with him on certain things, but it sounds like they tried to help him.

They will need kind words, thoughts and prayers in the days ahead.

[redhotmess]

I knew within a week or two of birth that my third child was depressed. She was just a chronically unhappy baby. Not colicky, just unhappy. Thank goodness that she seemed to outgrow it around age 2 and became a sunny, sociable little thing. (She still is, even as a teenager.)

I've since learned that a mother's untreated depression during pregnancy can lead to mood disorders in infants. These aren't always permanent, but can last a couple of years.

That's why a lot of experts are now recommending that depressed pregnant women be treated with antidepressants. There is no evidence of harm (except with a few medications at a certain dose at a certain stage of pregnancy). Some babies go through a day or two of withdrawal symptoms, but that's preferable to years of a mood disorder.

This is very interesting to me. I was diagnosed with depression and severe anxiety at 15 and have been on antidepressants and anti anxiety meds ever since. I am now almost 40. When I had my one and only child at 20 I took Prozac the whole time. I was told there were some risks. I can't recall what they told me I just knew I didn't want to be with out my Prozac. My daughter has to be the happiest and wonderful child ever. She was an awesome baby, child and very agreeable teenager. She had one episode of depression when her father and I divorced she went to therapy and got over it. She has done every milestone pretty much exactly on time, has never had any real sickness. She is currently in college full time and working part time. I just found it interesting that they are saying to treat depressed women through pregnancy now.

[treemom]

I am another who likely had at least some part of my anxiety disorder from birth. I am sure my chaotic childhood did not help, but I don't remember ever not having the anxiousness.

And while I can't stand Warren or his church, no one deserves the loss of a child and I feel compassion for him. And for his son and the rest of the family and friends.

[Want More Babies]

My heart goes out to Matthew's family. I lost a close friend to suicide.

I wondered how soon the nouthetic counseling people would be discussing this and it looks like today:

bc4women.blogspot.com/2013/04/a-biblical-perspective-on-depression.html

A Biblical Perspective on Depression

I join the thousands of people who were shocked and saddened by the news that Rick and Kay Warren's youngest son has Matthew committed suicide. While we share little in common theologically, my heart grieves at what the Warren's must be enduring right now.

The press release regarding this news said, "Matthew suffered from mental illness that resulted in deep depression and suicidal thoughts." and “Despite the best healthcare available, this was an illness that was never fully controlled and the emotional pain resulted in his decision to take his life.â€

Depression is nasty business; however, not all sadness is depression in spite of the world’s catch-all label for the emotional response to life’s problems. Depression has been described as an emotional problem, but what we see in a depressed person is often their emotions are working just fine. In some cases a person may become so emotionally overwrought that they simply shut down all together - such as in the moments following the death of a loved one, but the typical thing you see with a depressed person is lots of emotions. They truly feel sad, frustrated and alone. Crying is pretty typical for a person who has the feelings of depression.

Physical depression is the kind of depression that relates to or affects a body organ—it affects the physical body. Depression can result from a reaction to prescription medications, poor eating and sleeping habits, chronic fatigue, a sedentary lifestyle and lack of exercise, or too much caffeine.

More than 70 scientifically proven illnesses or diseases (organic causes) can contribute to or cause depression, emotional disturbances, or bizarre behavior. A careful medical exam is always in order whenever a physical cause (including chemical dependency) is suspected. If a physical problem is discovered, the elimination or medical management of the illness should be the first goal.

In the Christian Counselor’s Medical Desk Reference, Dr. Robert Smith makes an important statement: “In order for something to be considered a true illness, science says that there must be objective, measurable, reproducible testing. To qualify as an illness there must be tissue damage … demonstrated by abnormal function It is a provable, knowable fact based on objective testing.â€

If a physical problem is discovered, the elimination or medical management of the illness should be the first goal.

Dr. Smith: “The current method in diagnosing depression is based on subjective reasoning and thinking and not on changes in the body. Currently, there are no objective, measurable, reproducible tests for depression. Nothing exists to prove that it is provable or knowable as an illness for a fact, according to science.â€

In the majority of depression cases, there is no objective evidence to prove that the body is functioning abnormally. No tests exist that will produce definable and measurable data; therefore, no basis exists to conclude an organic illness is present.

Apart from an organic cause for depression the usual reasons for these feelings is that a person doesn’t like what they are going through. This causes them to have and focus on bad feelings which lead to decreased function which leads to more problems, creating a vicious cycle of depression.

You may be surprised to know that you won’t find the word “depression†in your Strong’s Concordance. The Bible uses terms such as “cast down,†“sufferingâ€, “sorrow,†“hardship†“trials,†“overwhelmed,†burdens,†“troubled,†“dread,†“hopelessness,†and “tribulations.â€

If you are depressed today, the words in the preceding paragraph may describe many or all of the feelings you are experiencing. I am not going to discount your feelings and emotions. I am not going to tell you that what you feel is not real. You may feel sad. You may feel tired. You may feel hopeless and think all is lost. The truth is, hope is not lost!

When looking at depression biblically, we must examine the root causes for the way we feel. Whether or not we have a medical diagnosis, there is a critical component that the Bible addresses directly.

From the Bible we can safely determine that essentially we are comprised of two parts—material/organic and immaterial. You have read that various diseases can cause or contribute to depression. If the problem is not proven to originate in the material (organic) part of the person, it must then originate in the immaterial (non-organic) part of the person.

If you are feeling depressed, your problem may not only be the difficult situation in which you find yourself. Your feelings may also be caused by a wrong or unbiblical response to that situation. God has provided the means to live in the midst of the trial, but you must avail yourself of His grace.

I would suggest beginning by defining all the feelings and behaviors that characterize you at this time. What words would you use to describe how you feel? Are you sad, grief stricken, despondent, mourning, hopeless, in despair, angry, lonely, or tired?

Next, I would suggest reading Deuteronomy 31:6; Isaiah 26:3, 41:10; Lamentations 3:21-24; Psalm 43:4, 46:1; 2 Corinthians 4:16; Hebrews 12:2, with a notebook and pencil nearby to take notes about what you read. You may notice that the Bible uses words like “sorrow,†“grieved,†and “downcast†to describe these feelings. We do not find the phrase “depressive disorder†in the Bible, but various Psalms (69, 51, 32, 38, and 45) clearly describe the behavior and mindset of a person who is suffering from depression.

When you begin to adopt biblical thinking and practice it in your behavior, you will see changes in your feelings. On the other hand, when someone labels you with “depressive disorder,†you become saddled with a medical diagnosis code, which in the medical realm may mean you have an illness from which you will never recover. You are now a victim of an illness.

There is no victory there.

When behavior is labeled as a disease, it means you have a problem that cannot be fixed, which takes away all hope. You are led to believe that you will have “depressive disorder†for the rest of your life, even if you never have another depressive episode. If you believe depression is largely biological, you may think the most you can do is get long-term therapy or take a pill to feel better.

When you define depression the way the Bible defines it—“sorrow†and “despairâ€â€”this describes feelings and sinful behavior for which Christ died! There is a lot of hope there! A behavior can be stopped and avoided because it is a choice. The choice begins with the desires of the heart.

Christ didn’t die for “depressive disorderâ€â€”he died to give us victory over the flesh that drives us to be sinful in our thoughts and desires. He didn’t die for what man has labeled as disease; he died for sins. I pray this brings you tremendous hope!

Understanding this is crucial because it means Understanding this is crucial because it means either a life of freedom in Christ or bondage to man-made terminology. Using worldly terminology traps people. In many cases, harm is being done by people who believe they are being kind. Some might say it is cruel for you to be told that you are sinning. Truthfully, it is unkind when people do not tell you the truth; in fact, it is very unkind because you cannot deal with sinful behavior when it is labeled as a disease.

The Bible graciously teaches us how to respond to the feelings of depression. Because Jesus Christ is our example, we must go to the Scriptures and determine if He lived His life by feelings. A careful student will determine that Christ never commanded or suggested that we should live life by our feelings. In fact, the Bible warns us not to live by our emotions. 1 & 2 Peter are heavily concentrated with verses that warn against and give the result of living a feeling-oriented life.

This is not to suggest a person should deny they have feelings or be fearful of expressing them. Emotions and feelings are a part of the package that makes us human! There is nothing wrong with having feelings, but there is something completely unbiblical when someone lives by their feelings.

Before your feelings change, you have to come to believe or think differently in your mind. What you think or believe about depression will determine how you respond to it. If the depression is medically and objectively proven to be a biological issue, follow all the instructions the medical professionals give you. Take your medication as directed and treat the cause of the problem. If the depression is not proven to be a biological problem, then a true alternative is to allow the Lord to affect the thoughts, belief's and desires of the heart. Allow your belief system about whatever problem has you down to be changed to a biblical one.

[tropaka]

I have bipolar disorder and the people above quoted re biblical beliefs and depression etc can go fuck themselves.

You can take your meds faithfully, see doctors, yet it may only take 5 mins of a depressive wave to cause you to do something irreparable; I am very lucky to be alive as are many others.

[chaotic life]

I saw RW's comment that this came after a fun-filled evening with family as saying it was that quick and that shocking to his family.

As far as the world knowing your personal information, that would be wrong. If everyone knew that Rick Warren's son suffered from mental health issues, most would outcry that sharing that FOR his adult son would violate that child's privacy and that being the son of a famous pastor does NOT cause this young man to forfeit his right to privacy.

I've actually had this exact discussion with a co-worker. My clinic is full of a slew of extroverts and accepting that I was a very, VERY private introvert was one of the biggest struggles they had to accepting me when I started working there. I had attempted to explain this *very* issue about being a PK and losing your right to privacy and how it makes you intensely private about your personal life for the rest of your life. Of three siblings that grew up together, I am the only introvert of us. However, all three of us are fiercely guarded regarding our privacy. Every detail of our lives was fodder for EVERY parishoner in EVERY church that my father served in. Even if he tried to protect our privacy, those people DEMANDED to be told, or held Dad responsible for being a bad "shephard" for protecting us. Everyone and their brother believes that the real mark of how good a pastor is lies in how good his/her children are. Therefore, those children MUST be offered up as a sacrificial lamb to prove that the preacher is what they claim to be.

I have a lot of respect that the world was NOT aware of Rick's son's struggles, that he put that child's right to privacy ahead of the standard demands of putting even adult children under a microscope to either show the preacher is genuine, or to tear apart and prove the preacher is lousy.

[Burris]

Alas, that's hard. I hope his family eventually finds peace - and that he does, as well.

[JenXer]

You may be surprised to know that you won’t find the word “depression†in your Strong’s Concordance.

I'm pretty sure that you won't find the words diabetes, appendicitis, septicemia or anencephaly, either, dipshit. As for the rest of that drivel... spoken like someone who has never experienced clinical depression. Lucky guy, but still a dipshit.

[Want More Babies]

I'm pretty sure that you won't find the words diabetes, appendicitis, septicemia or anencephaly, either, dipshit. As for the rest of that drivel... spoken like someone who has never experienced clinical depression. Lucky guy, but still a dipshit.

Actually the post was written by a woman, Julie Ganschow, for women.

[precious_one]

I suffer from clinical depression every day. I may not be depressed everyday but I do fight it every day. I have had been told by people who have never suffered from depression that it is all a mind set. I am only depressed because I think negatively. If I was to think positive and happy thoughts I would be happy. Well if was that easy I would have done that 20 years ago. I tell those people until you have suffered from depression don't be giving me your "expert" advice.

I know from experience that depression is a hell hole. It is a very debilitating disease if not treated properly just like any other disease. I was once on the verge of suicide myself and I don't ever want to feel that way again. That is the most helpless and hopeless feeling I have ever experienced. I don't wish that upon anyone.

I don't think a suicide victim goes to hell. Gods know the person is not in their right mind or they wouldn't kill themselves.

Sympathies to the Warren family.

[crazyforkate]

I suffer from clinical depression every day. I may not be depressed everyday but I do fight it every day. I have had been told by people who have never suffered from depression that it is all a mind set. I am only depressed because I think negatively. If I was to think positive and happy thoughts I would be happy. Well if was that easy I would have done that 20 years ago. I tell those people until you have suffered from depression don't be giving me your "expert" advice.

I know from experience that depression is a hell hole. It is a very debilitating disease if not treated properly just like any other disease. I was once on the verge of suicide myself and I don't ever want to feel that way again. That is the most helpless and hopeless feeling I have ever experienced. I don't wish that upon anyone.

Most medical professionals I've dealt with say it's a lifelong thing, whether it's acute or not at a given moment. They like to use the term "in remission" instead of "cured". I think that's honestly a more effective way of dealing with it. It's not a matter of changing mood or feeling better. It's something that has great effect far beyond the actual depressive period. After a particularly bad depressive episode which one of my friends was witness to, she put up a blog post obviously directed at me saying you could "choose" to get better, which pissed me off to no end. People just don't get it.

[Amygee]

I wonder if he was ever hospitalized. It wouldnt surprise me if he hadn't been. "Being committed" has such a stigma attached to it that I almost didn't take myself to the nearest Psych hospital when I really needed to. I did, though, and it made a huge difference. For one thing, I was with people who knew I was sick, and not just in a mood. For another, I was finally able to get a proper diagnosis and get on the right meds. It hasn't always been easy since then, but I am forever grateful to the staff for the care they provided when I was in desperate need.

Regardless of what his treatment entailed, I'm sure his parents are wondering if they did all they could do. I don't wish that kind of pain on anyone.

[salex]

My heart goes out to Matthew's family. I lost a close friend to suicide.

I wondered how soon the nouthetic counseling people would be discussing this and it looks like today:

bc4women.blogspot.com/2013/04/a-biblical-perspective-on-depression.html

Bob Smith (the Dr. Smith quoted in this passage)

Instructor, counselor - Faith Biblical Counseling Ministries

Bob is a retired physician who practiced in St. Elizabeth's Hospital's ER and Arnett Clinic's Urgent Care Center. Bob and his wife, Leona, became members of Faith in 1977. Bob is a member of the Academy and board of trustees of NANC. He is an instructor and counselor for Faith Biblical Counseling Ministries, where he oversees the training certification of several counselors. He is author of several books. Bob teaches several adult ministry classes and served for many years as the Chairman of deacons for Faith Church. Bob also serves on the Counseling Ministries Committee.

Apparently his counseling advice would be "pray. Stiff upper lip. Pray. Walk it off. Pray."

[MamaJunebug]

A little off-topic. There's a commercial artist named Mary Engelbreit who's built several fortunes on her whimsical, inventive and aesthetically beautiful greeting cards, bric-a-brac, fabrics and more. One of her top sellers continues to be an image of an imperious young female, eyes obscured by glasses, mouth the opposite of smiling, with a pointing finger (IIRC) and in huge letters, the instructions: GET OVER IT.

Ironic and dare I say, incomprehensible, as one of Mary's own children took his own life after a lifetime of depression and drug use (attempting to self-medicate). His mental disorders were apparent from his earliest childhood.

Mary is raising that son's daughter, since again IIRC the child's mother was so traumatized by the suicide (he shot himself in a car where they both were sitting) she allegedly gave up custody of the girl. I hope the girl has not inherited that part of her dad's DNA that has the inclination toward depression, and that her mom's attraction to the man wasn't based on shared depression-related personality traits.

My point is ... unclear, honestly. Mary has another poster, of a jester cavorting with the motto, "Life's too mysterious, don't take it serious" that I hardly ever see. I understand that it isn't Ms. Engelbreit who's deciding what to market and not market, consumer demand drives that.

It just occurred to me as I browsed this topic. Mental illness can happen to any one, any where. To claim the Bible holds the cure for it is like saying the Bible holds the cure for a cancer gene. "Bible says, 'don't eat pork, don't eat shellfish, don't-worry-be-happy' so if you're a cancer patient, you're sinning, if you're depressed, you're sinning!" Nobody had better ever say that around me.

And to their credit, two conservative Lutheran pastors who supported our family in its grief after my devout brother killed himself didn't say anything of the kind.

I grieve doubly for the survivors of suicides whose ignorant, arrogant clergy [sic] tell them that their loved ones just didn't have enough faith; and for those depressive types (like myself) who hear the same thing from the pulpits.

Dont' believe it, folks. It's a disease/disorder of the brain, just like cancer is a disease of whatever organ/cells, just like diabetes is a disorder of the pancreas (or whatever organ, I only play a doctor on TV). See your medical professional, see a good therapist, try the medications.

The Warren family are in my prayers, fwiw.

[OnceModestTwiceShy]

I very much understand the desire to figure out why things happen, but just as anecdotally my pitocin induced children show no signs of mood or attachment disorders. Thankfully, neither do any of my friends' children.

I really like The Skeptical OB... http://www.skepticalob.com She is not sunshine and light but she does do a good job of separating what she calls "woo" from research.

OnceModestTwiceShy, I highly recommend seeing a psychiatrist with experience treating pregnant women before making any medication decisions. Not all docs are up to date with the latest research. I'm lucky to be seeing a doctor who specializes in prenatal and postpartum depression. I'm pregnant now and wasn't depressed until the second trimester. But when it hit, it hit hard. He prescribed Wellbutrin and it has helped immensely.

There is a book called Pregnant on Prozac by Shoshana Bennett. She does a fantastic job of separating the woo from the research.

http://www.amazon.com/Pregnant-Prozac-E ... 0762749407

Best wishes to you! Depression is a bitch and needs to be treated as best as possible. My heart goes out to the Warren family, especially the son. I deeply hope that he is at peace now.

Thank you! I am going to start seeing a psychiatrist this summer who works exclusively with women. I've heard great things about her. I'm hoping she can either advise me on this or refer me to someone who can.

[Patsy]

I suffer from clinical depression every day. I may not be depressed everyday but I do fight it every day. I have had been told by people who have never suffered from depression that it is all a mind set. I am only depressed because I think negatively. If I was to think positive and happy thoughts I would be happy. Well if was that easy I would have done that 20 years ago. I tell those people until you have suffered from depression don't be giving me your "expert" advice.

Yeah. I am naturally an incredibly optimistic person. I also have clinical depression. :o

[starfish]

A little off-topic. There's a commercial artist named Mary Engelbreit who's built several fortunes on her whimsical, inventive and aesthetically beautiful greeting cards, bric-a-brac, fabrics and more. One of her top sellers continues to be an image of an imperious young female, eyes obscured by glasses, mouth the opposite of smiling, with a pointing finger (IIRC) and in huge letters, the instructions: GET OVER IT.

Ironic and dare I say, incomprehensible, as one of Mary's own children took his own life after a lifetime of depression and drug use (attempting to self-medicate). His mental disorders were apparent from his earliest childhood.

Mary is raising that son's daughter, since again IIRC the child's mother was so traumatized by the suicide (he shot himself in a car where they both were sitting) she allegedly gave up custody of the girl. I hope the girl has not inherited that part of her dad's DNA that has the inclination toward depression, and that her mom's attraction to the man wasn't based on shared depression-related personality traits.

My point is ... unclear, honestly. Mary has another poster, of a jester cavorting with the motto, "Life's too mysterious, don't take it serious" that I hardly ever see. I understand that it isn't Ms. Engelbreit who's deciding what to market and not market, consumer demand drives that.

It just occurred to me as I browsed this topic. Mental illness can happen to any one, any where. To claim the Bible holds the cure for it is like saying the Bible holds the cure for a cancer gene. "Bible says, 'don't eat pork, don't eat shellfish, don't-worry-be-happy' so if you're a cancer patient, you're sinning, if you're depressed, you're sinning!" Nobody had better ever say that around me.

And to their credit, two conservative Lutheran pastors who supported our family in its grief after my devout brother killed himself didn't say anything of the kind.

I grieve doubly for the survivors of suicides whose ignorant, arrogant clergy [sic] tell them that their loved ones just didn't have enough faith; and for those depressive types (like myself) who hear the same thing from the pulpits.

Dont' believe it, folks. It's a disease/disorder of the brain, just like cancer is a disease of whatever organ/cells, just like diabetes is a disorder of the pancreas (or whatever organ, I only play a doctor on TV). See your medical professional, see a good therapist, try the medications.

The Warren family are in my prayers, fwiw.

This is a great post, MJB. I did not know any of that about Mary Engelbreit, and I'm sitting here looking at her calendar.

I know what you mean about people with mental issues attempting to self-medicate. I see it all the time in my work. I think that the legal profession has a long way to go with its treatment of those with mental issues. It seems to me also that the medical profession has a ways to go with their treatment of mental issues. I think they have come a long way from when they were giving people electric shock treatments and calling it a day, but clearly there is so much yet to do. It frustrates me to no end that our scientific community can do incredible things in some areas, but are still far behind in other areas. I guess I am just venting. (No offense to our FreeJinger doctors out there.....) I have mixed feelings about the Affordable Care Act but it does promise more treatment for mental illness which is a good thing. Right now in Texas, the largest provider of mental health treatment is the Harris County Jail. I lost a young, beautiful and smart relative to suicide. She was also 27. She was bipolar and we thought she was doing so better. I wish things worked out differently. I'm sure the Warren family does too. I've reconciled myself to the fact that I will never reconcile myself to what happened, if that makes sense.

[Sarahsahara]

I saw RW's comment that this came after a fun-filled evening with family as saying it was that quick and that shocking to his family.

As far as the world knowing your personal information, that would be wrong. If everyone knew that Rick Warren's son suffered from mental health issues, most would outcry that sharing that FOR his adult son would violate that child's privacy and that being the son of a famous pastor does NOT cause this young man to forfeit his right to privacy.

I've actually had this exact discussion with a co-worker. My clinic is full of a slew of extroverts and accepting that I was a very, VERY private introvert was one of the biggest struggles they had to accepting me when I started working there. I had attempted to explain this *very* issue about being a PK and losing your right to privacy and how it makes you intensely private about your personal life for the rest of your life. Of three siblings that grew up together, I am the only introvert of us. However, all three of us are fiercely guarded regarding our privacy. Every detail of our lives was fodder for EVERY parishoner in EVERY church that my father served in. Even if he tried to protect our privacy, those people DEMANDED to be told, or held Dad responsible for being a bad "shephard" for protecting us. Everyone and their brother believes that the real mark of how good a pastor is lies in how good his/her children are. Therefore, those children MUST be offered up as a sacrificial lamb to prove that the preacher is what they claim to be.

I have a lot of respect that the world was NOT aware of Rick's son's struggles, that he put that child's right to privacy ahead of the standard demands of putting even adult children under a microscope to either show the preacher is genuine, or to tear apart and prove the preacher is lousy.

I am also a PK, and I've suffered since my early teens with depression and anxiety. My every movement was scrutinized by every member of every church my father served. My parent's every decision about raising us was scrutinized. They couldn't win- if they allowed me to date, everyone in town heard about it. My first (very chaste) kiss was seen by someone and before I got home my parents had already received calls about my 'innappropriate behavior.' It was exhausting being so watched while struggling to get out of bed in the morning and I often considered suicide.

As an adult, although I'd love to be closer to my family, I live 2,000 miles away. I need the distance to feel that I can be myself. I am actually well known in my industry, but I work under a pseudonym and guard my privacy closely. I have a few close friends who enter my home, but otherwise I keep to myself. I still struggle with anxiety, but thankfully my depression has lifted. I feel so sorry for this young man who couldn't see a way out.

[kaleidoscopeiii]

I do feel bad for the family. I also give them kudos for getting him therapy. My parents tried, in vain, to pray my depression away.

Every time I hear of a evangelically raised male child commiting suicide, I wonde if they are gay. The self loathing would be very painful, if you consider homesexual desires to be a sin. 'love the sinner, hate the sin' is the biggest bullshit churches have ever come up with, around 'the gay agenda'. It promotes hatred - the word is right there in that quote.

That's where my mind went too. One of my best friends was a member of Saddleback's CR group to help people "overcome" homosexuality (don't worry, it was a massive failure and my friend is still the amazing dyke she was born to be!). The things she described make my skin crawl. What about all the people he told to just pray away their gay? The inevitable self-loathing, shame and depression that comes from that message? I do feel profoundly sorry for him, his family and his son. No one deserves that.

[gustava]

With an unregistered gun.

http://www.salon.com/2013/04/12/rick_wa ... ed_gun_ap/

[Rachel333]

That's where my mind went too. One of my best friends was a member of Saddleback's CR group to help people "overcome" homosexuality (don't worry, it was a massive failure and my friend is still the amazing dyke she was born to be!). The things she described make my skin crawl. What about all the people he told to just pray away their gay? The inevitable self-loathing, shame and depression that comes from that message? I do feel profoundly sorry for him, his family and his son. No one deserves that.

I was going to Celebrate Recovery for a while because it made my family happy, I figured I might as well take any help I can get, and then I found I genuinely liked a lot of the people I met there. I'm not Christian anymore and so of course I'm not going to agree with that part, but I found nothing to object to in the services and in the groups afterwards. I didn't introduce myself with the typical "I'm a grateful believer in Christ" but everyone was fine with that and they were all still really nice and not pushy about that at all. It was probably the best church experience I've had, actually. Everyone had their own problems so there was absolutely no judgement that I felt.

Anyway, a few weeks ago I was looking through one of the pamphlets and found one about homosexuality for women. It blamed lesbianism on, among other things, poor relationships with parents, interest in masculine activities, and hatred for men. I'm wishing I hadn't thrown in away now because I can't find it online, but it was absolutely terrible and I actually found myself pretty hurt by it.

I absolutely will not be going back to CR despite the positive experiences I've had there. I wish I could find a secular version, but I don't know of a lot of resources like that in my area and I'm not an alcoholic so AA wouldn't work (and even those 12-step groups want you to believe in a higher power).

That said, I am really sorry for Rick Warren and his family, and from what I've seen I really appreciate the way he's been talking about mental illness. Now is absolutely not the time for blame from either side; depression can happen to anyone's child.

[EmiGirl]

I'm at a pretty mainstream women's conference this weekend. Kay was scheduled to speak tomorrow morning but I'm not sure if she will. I would imagine not but you never know.

[Dev83]

I grew up going to Saddleback. I went from elementary school all through HS. And while I very very very much dislike the church now (as a very liberal athiest), Rick Warren was always very warm and kind. And he truly seemed to adore his children. I still live about 5 miles away from the church and know many people that attend there - apparently the church was overflowing last Sunday with well wishers, which I am glad for for him.

Also, just as an FYI, Saddleback is in no way fundie. I actually LOLed when I saw that implication. It is very mainstream Christian. Some fundies may like PDL, but lets just say that theyw ould be horrified at a service. Men in hawaiin shirts and shorts and women in shorts and tank tops, kids in Sunday school (and that is kids allll the way through HS) and hymns are hardly ever sung, much more rock-style Christian music.

And now I feel dirty for somewhat defending that church.

[lamariposa]

I grieve doubly for the survivors of suicides whose ignorant, arrogant clergy [sic] tell them that their loved ones just didn't have enough faith; and for those depressive types (like myself) who hear the same thing from the pulpits.

Dont' believe it, folks. It's a disease/disorder of the brain, just like cancer is a disease of whatever organ/cells, just like diabetes is a disorder of the pancreas (or whatever organ, I only play a doctor on TV). See your medical professional, see a good therapist, try the medications.

This made me tear up. My older sister is bipolar and for years she avoided getting treatment because our church told her that it was demons. I remember her going up to the pulpit so many times and being prayed over. When she was in her manic stage she'd say God had freed her and she'd be a whirlwind of church activities until she'd get to the depressive stage. It was really hard to watch, from a young age I knew it wasn't demons. (Demons seem to be the culprit in many illnesses ?? My grandmother was also told she was possessed because she had epilepsy. She always feared having seizures in church so when she'd feel off she would not go to service). Even after we all left the church it was years before my sister sought professional help at the age of 46. When I think of all the suffering she went through it makes me a combo of sadness and rage.