THIS is why fundies scare me

[Effie]

There is no one here who possibly has a screencap of the post Kelly once made about the visit to the vet? I manage to find references to the post, but not the actual post since it's deleted.

[sarahbrownie]

There is no one here who possibly has a screencap of the post Kelly once made about the visit to the vet? I manage to find references to the post, but not the actual post since it's deleted.

How long ago was it? Do you remember what the title of it is? I can try to cache it.

[chaotic life]

She's in rural Alabama, right? I wouldn't count on CPS doing anything to a middle class, god fearing white family except to pat her on the back and tell her how sorry they are that people are picking on her. Southern states CPS are fairly notorious for targetting poverty more than anything else and not doing so well with much else. I wouldn't hope that CPS would do much of anything. Maybe if she were in an urban environment but unless her house and kids were filthy and she looked like trailer trash, I would assume rural, southern CPS is going to just assume it's all okay.

[Arete]

The way fundies can turn off their parental instincts simply blows my mind. My grandmother survived a famine. For the rest of her life, she had anxieties about her children and grandchildren having enough food. We always did, put she was so traumatized that there were things we simply could not say around her- "I'm hungry" was definitely one of them. Hearing a child say that would set her into a full scale panic attack. It didn't matter that it was after school, and we were nonchalantly grumbling on our way to the refrigerator to pull out hard boiled eggs, chickpeas, yogurt, fruit, or whatever else we felt like to have a snack. A child saying those words automatically sent her back to the place where people would lie down and die on the street. Kelly bragging about feeding 11 people on 2 chicken breasts and other mothers patting her on the back is just vile. How can they be OK with the fact their children tell them "I'm hungry" and the answer is "too bad"?

[Effie]

How long ago was it? Do you remember what the title of it is? I can try to cache it.

Annie asked for it (but it's possible she has contacted CPS already). I suspect it was in the beginning of 2011 or late 2010. It was discussed in February in 2011 at the yuku-board (http://freejinger.yuku.com/reply/128902 ... ply-128902). In a post from Feb. 2011, Kelly has written the following: "Parents here in the US are facing charges if they deny certain medical care for their children.", so it's possible she mentioned it in reference to that post. I don't remember for sure, but it could also have been a separate post earlier in that year or even in 2010. generationcedar.com/main/2011/02/before-you-lose-your-parental-rights.html#comments

[JesusFightClub]

The way fundies can turn off their parental instincts simply blows my mind. My grandmother survived a famine. For the rest of her life, she had anxieties about her children and grandchildren having enough food. We always did, put she was so traumatized that there were things we simply could not say around her- "I'm hungry" was definitely one of them. Hearing a child say that would set her into a full scale panic attack. It didn't matter that it was after school, and we were nonchalantly grumbling on our way to the refrigerator to pull out hard boiled eggs, chickpeas, yogurt, fruit, or whatever else we felt like to have a snack. A child saying those words automatically sent her back to the place where people would lie down and die on the street. Kelly bragging about feeding 11 people on 2 chicken breasts and other mothers patting her on the back is just vile. How can they be OK with the fact their children tell them "I'm hungry" and the answer is "too bad"?

AreteJo, because stupid folk like Kelly don't understand the difference between "we are upper middle class mummies and we want to keep our children thin so they reflect well on us" and "our children are starving in the streets." They think the second is just moaning (and if true, caused by insufficient amounts of capitalism) and the former is correct parenting.

[Effie]

She's in rural Alabama, right? I wouldn't count on CPS doing anything to a middle class, god fearing white family except to pat her on the back and tell her how sorry they are that people are picking on her. Southern states CPS are fairly notorious for targetting poverty more than anything else and not doing so well with much else. I wouldn't hope that CPS would do much of anything. Maybe if she were in an urban environment but unless her house and kids were filthy and she looked like trailer trash, I would assume rural, southern CPS is going to just assume it's all okay.

That is just so crazy and awful to me I can't believe it's for real in a developed nation in 2013. The thing is, my BA thesis in social work (here in the land of Ikea) was about how "just" verbal abuse in the home, can be one reason for our CPS to intervene. Here we work to prevent damage that we suspect will happen if the situation doesn't change, while the CPS in U.S. only can intervene if the damage has happened or is already happening. Am I right? I wrote a long list of concerns to Annie, which I know that altogether those concerns (even without the lack of adequate food) would lead to an immediate visit from the CPS here in Sweden. I really have a hard time understanding how it can't be taken seriously over there. On the other hand, physical abuse like this is tolerated over there (so maybe I shouldn't be surprised):

PHYSICAL ABUSE:

*Spanking children

Once you have clearly explained the offense, and explained that you are spanking him because you want him to learn to obey God, offer a Bible verse related to the offense. If he spoke harshly to his sister, you may use “Pleasant words are a honeycomb; sweet to the soul and health to the bones.†Or, “Be ye kind one to another...†This will reinforce the reason behind the correction. We should always point our children to the concrete reasons of Scripture behind their offenses. Then, placing the child over your lap if he is young, or over the edge of the bed if he is older, administer a few stinging swats. It is best to spank bare skin or through thin undergarments. - (From Kelly Crawford's child-rearing book 'Teaching children to obey)

*Spanking/swatting babies:

"Once your baby begins to crawl, his curiosity is the perfect tool for training. Babies are “into

everythingâ€. Use this to your advantage. Avoid the common desire to “baby proof†your

house. You need to house proof your baby! Set some object on the coffee table that you do not want your baby to play with. Then show

him the object, and say “May not†or give whatever your command is. He will probably look at

you, and the object, and he may not make the connection…yet. Wait for him to reach for it. At

the same time you repeat the command, calmly thump the top of his hand. (Or if you prefer, a

mild swat with a tiny switch will work.)" - (From her child-rearing book 'Teaching children to obey)

-Spanking of her 18-month-year-old (generationcedar.com/main/2009/05/early-child-training.html):

"My youngest daughter (18 months old) has entered the moment of truth. It is crucial, IMO, that child training starts very early.

I called for Kyla to come to me very clearly, and she ignored me. I began walking to the kitchen to find a spanking “disciplining†utensil and she immediately said “OK†and started walking briskly toward me.

Patience. Or self-control–it is highly important to begin when they are little! For example, at the table Kyla gets impatient when she is hungry. So she fusses and holds her plate out. We just try to remember to tell her to “be patient†or “wait–don’t fussâ€â€¦consistency is the key. If she continues to fuss, we may lightly thump her leg while speaking the command in a normal tone of voice."

- Spanking frequently (generationcedar.com/main/2008/10/getting-your-children-to-be-friends_06.html):

"As with many undesirable behaviors, I believe consistency is the best practice. A consistent, calm spanking every time usually stops the habit." -

With other words, spanking is not an uncommon practice at the Cedar house?

[Wolfie]

Canned diced tomatoes and either chick peas or beans were my staples when we were starving students. I still get excited and start stockpiling when I see big cans on sale for $0.88. Adjust the spices and add-ins, and you get curry, chili, black bean soup, stew, etc.

Oh, and she could have added some scrambled egg to diced chicken breast and celery and onion with a bit of garlic and soy sauce and call it a Chinese dish. It would have increased the protein and taste content.

Pancakes are really cheap if you buy ingredients in bulk, and they can be healthy if you use whole wheat flour and oats.

Canned salmon, a package of frozen spinach, some onion and garlic and oil and a can of evaporated milk can make a surprisingly tasty and hearty sauce over pasta.

You can cook inexpensively without starving your kids or serving puke-in-a-pot.

Beans, tomatoes and chickpeas are still staples for me. The difference is that I can most of them myself.

[penguinagogo]

this thing about females 'eating like birds' gets to me

so many women in so many cultures, over so many years have been limited this way

eating the leftover bits, eating after 'the working men', giving the lions share to their brothers, giving up favourite bits for the toddlers, sacrificing for jesus (in this case, though many gods seem to demand similar behavior) being good and meek and not having any bodily needs or any appetites at all , remaining childlike and slim

read something like the minessota experiment about behavioural changes, think of all the avoidable morbidity and mortality for women eg anaemia, dietary deficiency, osteoporosis, low birth weight, poor immunity not to mention the changes in cognition, behaviour and emotional responses that go along with it. The lack of food/disordered attitudes is just another control strategy for these families.

[sarahbrownie]

Annie asked for it (but it's possible she has contacted CPS already). I suspect it was in the beginning of 2011 or late 2010. It was discussed in February in 2011 at the yuku-board (http://freejinger.yuku.com/reply/128902 ... ply-128902). In a post from Feb. 2011, Kelly has written the following: "Parents here in the US are facing charges if they deny certain medical care for their children.", so it's possible she mentioned it in reference to that post. I don't remember for sure, but it could also have been a separate post earlier in that year or even in 2010. generationcedar.com/main/2011/02/before-you-lose-your-parental-rights.html#comments

I searched and search and couldn't find a cache for that post. Sorry.

[chaotic life]

Yes, this has put me on a cooking spree. My African sons requested not ONLY did they want the bean soup I put in the crockpot for dinner, not ONLY did they want the four loaves of homemade bread I made for lunch.....they want curried lentils and rice (made with palm kernel oil and thus more authentic for them).

There is NOTHING like cooking in the kitchen and bonding with your teen over his enduring four years under the same hellish food control you grew up with. I refuse to EVER eat Cream of Wheat or Liver because of the ugliness I lived under. I once lasted three DAYS before I finally ate the damn Cream of Wheat. For him, he cannot stand oatmeal. Last "mother" (and I use that term merely as a loose conventional word and not an actual title of priviledge for her) forced him to eat steel cut oats every morning for breakfast. He was permitted to add a small amount of milk but NO sweetners beyond that, and just like my childhood, if he refused to eat it he got it cold at every meal until he succombed to authority and ate it.

Kelly locks her pantry. I am 100% certain that her children are ONLY permitted to eat what she serves them and if they dared to refuse they would get it cold at every meal until they finally ate it.

To the PP in Sweden, last I checked spanking is still legal in the schools in Alabama. No one would think twice about a parent spanking. Actually, I KNOW it's still legal in Alabama cause just a year or two ago a high school girl opted to be spanked instead of suspended for something and there was a big to-do and people did NOT think the Principal was a pedophile for spanking a 16 or 17 year old girl for misbehavior.

[chaotic life]

FWIW, I am proud to confess that while my one teen and I compared and bonded over food hell, my other children stood there with mouths agap. Not even my boys from orphanages straight into *my* home can fathom behavior like that. In my house, you mus TRY dinner and then you may have something small that you can fix yourself if you really don't like it. My other boys from orphanages have experienced deprivation where NO FOOD existed. They have NEVER experienced the special kind of hell you live when there IS food, you KNOW there is food, and you are required to STARVE despite the food in the house that you are not permitted to touch.

I take great comfort that none of my children except for this new one have a clue what a life like that is. I take comfort that this child just admitted to me that his obssession with cheese on everything he eats came in OUR home, because he learned he was ALLOWED to eat cheese and he thought it was heavenly so he put it on everything as he adjusted to the idea of being allowed to actually EAT again. I keep big bags of real shredded cheese just for him, because he tends to smother everything with it. Now, I'm glad I simply responded to his love of food by giving him food he loves instead of being irritated that I had to adjust and spend more money to make sure he has that cheese available for him.

[Dixiebelle]

This is part of the whole Fundie Mommy Wars mentality, the "I am holier than you because..." (insert thing/s of choice). Personally, I think she's making it up. There is just no way, just like I didn't believe Emily was doing all the crap she said she was. There is no way anyone can prove she's lying but even if she isn't, she is boasting, which is also a sin according to her own rule book (I imagine she would try to get out of that one by saying she is just being a Titus 2 whatever).

And that's the real problem, because I believe her kids are actually eating fine. The problem is all the women who are trying desperately to be "holy enough" and to please their headships who are going to listen to this drivel. :cry:

According to her own rule book, she will be held responsible in the end for leading others astray. One can only hope! :dance:

[2xx1xy1JD]

That is just so crazy and awful to me I can't believe it's for real in a developed nation in 2013. The thing is, my BA thesis in social work (here in the land of Ikea) was about how "just" verbal abuse in the home, can be one reason for our CPS to intervene. Here we work to prevent damage that we suspect will happen if the situation doesn't change, while the CPS in U.S. only can intervene if the damage has happened or is already happening. Am I right? I wrote a long list of concerns to Annie, which I know that altogether those concerns (even without the lack of adequate food) would lead to an immediate visit from the CPS here in Sweden. I really have a hard time understanding how it can't be taken seriously over there. On the other hand, physical abuse like this is tolerated over there (so maybe I shouldn't be surprised):

PHYSICAL ABUSE:

*Spanking children

Once you have clearly explained the offense, and explained that you are spanking him because you want him to learn to obey God, offer a Bible verse related to the offense. If he spoke harshly to his sister, you may use “Pleasant words are a honeycomb; sweet to the soul and health to the bones.†Or, “Be ye kind one to another...†This will reinforce the reason behind the correction. We should always point our children to the concrete reasons of Scripture behind their offenses. Then, placing the child over your lap if he is young, or over the edge of the bed if he is older, administer a few stinging swats. It is best to spank bare skin or through thin undergarments. - (From Kelly Crawford's child-rearing book 'Teaching children to obey)

*Spanking/swatting babies:

"Once your baby begins to crawl, his curiosity is the perfect tool for training. Babies are “into

everythingâ€. Use this to your advantage. Avoid the common desire to “baby proof†your

house. You need to house proof your baby! Set some object on the coffee table that you do not want your baby to play with. Then show

him the object, and say “May not†or give whatever your command is. He will probably look at

you, and the object, and he may not make the connection…yet. Wait for him to reach for it. At

the same time you repeat the command, calmly thump the top of his hand. (Or if you prefer, a

mild swat with a tiny switch will work.)" - (From her child-rearing book 'Teaching children to obey)

-Spanking of her 18-month-year-old (generationcedar.com/main/2009/05/early-child-training.html):

"My youngest daughter (18 months old) has entered the moment of truth. It is crucial, IMO, that child training starts very early.

I called for Kyla to come to me very clearly, and she ignored me. I began walking to the kitchen to find a spanking “disciplining†utensil and she immediately said “OK†and started walking briskly toward me.

Patience. Or self-control–it is highly important to begin when they are little! For example, at the table Kyla gets impatient when she is hungry. So she fusses and holds her plate out. We just try to remember to tell her to “be patient†or “wait–don’t fussâ€â€¦consistency is the key. If she continues to fuss, we may lightly thump her leg while speaking the command in a normal tone of voice."

- Spanking frequently (generationcedar.com/main/2008/10/getting-your-children-to-be-friends_06.html):

"As with many undesirable behaviors, I believe consistency is the best practice. A consistent, calm spanking every time usually stops the habit." -

With other words, spanking is not an uncommon practice at the Cedar house?

Effie - her Pearl-inspired discipline is simply horrible.

Re CPS: Canada is a bit of a hybrid between the US and Swedish approach. For example, while some forms of spanking are still legal, spanking babies or using an object would be considered assault. CPS here can also intervene in cases of serious emotional harm, or in cases where there is a risk of harm.

I'm not convinced that more intervention is always better. It's a fine line. After working in the field, I realized that making laws is not about waving a magic wand and having families suddenly behave well. In reality, these laws give some incredibly intrusive powers to the state when parents violate (or are suspected of violating) them, including the power to enter a private home, forcibly take away children and in extreme cases, terminate all parental rights. Siblings may be separated, children can be removed from school and friends and placed with a strange foster family far from home. Physical or sexual abuse has occurred in foster homes, and there is no requirement for foster parents to actually love the children in their care. Now, sometimes those measures are very necessary, so the trauma of intervention is justified - but that doesn't mean that intervention is not traumatic.

Cultural/societal factors are another consideration. Some parents will comply with "official" suggestions quite readily. Others won't. In situations where social workers are clients are likely to be from different backgrounds, we tend to see more conflict. Rightly or wrongly, parents may feel that they are being victimized because of discrimination. I've had many cases where conflict between workers and parents overshadowed the original issue. In some cases, I'd agree that suspicions of discrimination - conscious or not - were justified. I've had a social worker tell me with a straight face that an illiterate Somali grandmother who spoke no English had just signed away her legal rights - without having anyone read her the documents or translate and without having a lawyer present, and I've also had a social worker tell a Korean mother that she knew all about overly-strict Asian parents from reading an excerpt from Battle Hymn of the Tiger Mother.

[August]

I also wonder why she seems to prepare food devoid of taste. Even with adequate portions, that casserole sounds disgusting. Boiling chicken and then sticking it in a blender? Unless you have no teeth, why would you do that? My equivalent would be to take leftover chicken (eg. meat on the chicken bones after they have been boiled for chicken soup broth) and add it to sauteed onions with some garlic and either shawarma or curry spice, and serve it over rice and/or hummus. Similar cheap ingredients (leftover chicken,onions, rice, chick peas), but it actually tastes good.

I agree chicken stroganoff is disgusting, but it's a legitimate recipe. White sauce made with stock and cream, garlic, mushrooms and chicken. Served over rice.

[jenny_islander]

If I assume that she isn't just outright lying to her followers, I have to ask: Why didn't she make soup with those ingredients? The water would at least have quelled the children's hunger pangs long enough to let them get to sleep. And if she really does have two deer and a cow in the freezer while her kids are eating a little dab of casserole apiece, shame on her!

Did she really pile up all those donated clothes in a locked room and make her kids buy replacement clothes from her? Seriously?

[Koala]

This is part of the whole Fundie Mommy Wars mentality, the "I am holier than you because..." (insert thing/s of choice). Personally, I think she's making it up. There is just no way, just like I didn't believe Emily was doing all the crap she said she was. There is no way anyone can prove she's lying but even if she isn't, she is boasting, which is also a sin according to her own rule book (I imagine she would try to get out of that one by saying she is just being a Titus 2 whatever).

And that's the real problem, because I believe her kids are actually eating fine. The problem is all the women who are trying desperately to be "holy enough" and to please their headships who are going to listen to this drivel. :cry:

According to her own rule book, she will be held responsible in the end for leading others astray. One can only hope! :dance:

Where do you think all of the food in her fridge went?

[AnnieC 305]

Oh for fuck's sake! CPS isn't answering, the Sheriff disconnected three times and the County Commissioners office isn't answering.

No offence to the southerners on this board but I swear sometimes we never should have contested secession. How that part of the country continues to function amazes me.

[Dixiebelle]

I don't know - maybe she was cleaning it out, maybe it really was time for a grocery run. Wherever it was, she grabbed at the chance to post it. Any opportunity to be martyr/hero...I am holier than you are because I don't need to stock up on food!

[AnnieC 305]

Oh for fuck's sake! CPS isn't answering, the Sheriff disconnected three times and the County Commissioners office isn't answering.

No offence to the southerners on this board but I swear sometimes we never should have contested secession. How that part of the country continues to function amazes me.

My husband just reminded me that it's MLK day. My apologies.

I hate Mondays.

Anyway, I e-mailed and I'll try again tomorrow.

[Sobeknofret]

I don't know - maybe she was cleaning it out, maybe it really was time for a grocery run. Wherever it was, she grabbed at the chance to post it. Any opportunity to be martyr/hero...I am holier than you are because I don't need to stock up on food!

The only times my fridge is that empty is just before I make a grocery run, but after I've cleaned it out to make room for new food, and there's only three of us in the house! With eleven people eating out of it, that fridge is frighteningly empty.

[Koala]

Just for reference: I made teriyaki chicken for lunch. It was served over rice with zucchini and corn as a side, and ice-cream w/ hot fudge sauce for dessert. It took 3 lbs. of chick. to make my recipe. It served 4 people (2 adults 2 children under age 10). There is enough leftover for dinner tonight *IF* I make fresh rice and a salad to go with it, which I will. I can't even figure out how she made 2 chicken breasts into a full casserole, much less made it feed 11 people.

I used to make chicken casserole from time to time. It takes a min. of 2lbs. of chicken to make a proper casserole in my experience. Anything less and you've got a bunch of nothing.

[chaotic life]

My soup has two chicken breasts and apparently two pork chops (I thought it was steak when I pulled them out of the freezer, oops). However, it has four cups of dry beans in it as well. It's also being served with corn pudding that has eight eggs and several cups of milk with the corn, flour, butter and sugar. Also rather than blending the meat I cooked it in the crockpot all day and shredded it. Company showed up and I invited them to eat with us, but again I started withabout four cups of dry beans, pretty sure we've got plenty by the time we get to the table.

[Wolfie]

Oh for fuck's sake! CPS isn't answering, the Sheriff disconnected three times and the County Commissioners office isn't answering.

No offence to the southerners on this board but I swear sometimes we never should have contested secession. How that part of the country continues to function amazes me.

Today is both a federal holiday and the presidential inauguration, I'm not surprised.

[slickcat79]

If store-bought chicken is hardly nutritious, why serve it at all?

It was probably donated.

Sufficient food is indeed on th CPS checklist. However, she has two deer and a cow in her freezer, so it is NOT insufficient food that is her problem, but a lack of brain cells. She HAS food......she is simply not FEEDING her family adequately. Since the kids are accustomed to having their food controlled and told they may not/do not feel hunger, they are certainly NOT going to tell a CPS worker they are hungry. She can show her freezer full of food, and I suspect she has staples in her pantry to show them as well. Her children are undoutably taught to fear the EVIL government at all costs and with no experience of anything other than her controlling the food, they have no framework nor trust to speak out that there is a problem. If she took the children to a doctor who was concerned, that would trip flags but IF she takes her children to ANY doctor, she most certainly does NOT go to a doctor who doesn't consider her a terrific mother and her children simply "small boned."

If she truly uses Samaritan Ministries, I'm sure the kids don't see a doctor unless they're on death's door. SM doesn't pay for any preventative health care or any expenses at all that are under $350(?). That would put yearly physicals and well-child visits right out.