Massacre Occurred Because We ‘Removed God From Our Schools’

[freejoytoo]

I just know someone out there thinks the solution is training five-year-olds in armed combat.

[Dinorah]

Then how do they explain places that have removed God from schools and that don't experience this sort of violence? Take French public school, which has a long tradition of being almost aggressively secular and areligious, and were, surprising enough, there are no constant massacres? Why didn't God "walk away"? Or maybe inadequate gun control is a more likely explanation?

A lot of the reactions I've seen to the shooting have been really sickening. As a non-American, at times like this I 'm really baffled by what the ideas some Americans seem to have. I know it doesn't involve all Americans, but still.

[lilwriter85]

This is bit OT. But there are lower murder rates in countries where atheist population are higher.

[Arete]

This is bit OT. But there are lower murder rates in countries where atheist population are higher.

There are lower murder rates in countries where every Jack Azzhat can't have A GUN. Greece probably rivals the US in religiosity (in terms of % who believe in God, not doctrine), and I believe has the lowest murder rate in the EU. Why? Because they can't get their hands on assault rifles.

[AnnieC 305]

And if he did, then I don't care if he is all-powerful and has the ability to torture for eternity, because I'm sure as fuck not praying to a God who let this happen because he's not getting his ego stroked enough.

[BoomerLynn]

I don't get the crowd who says that the teachers should have been armed. The folks are operating under the assumption that they would have th skills and mental toughness of a Navy Seal in a situation like this. The fact is, there aren't many Navy Seals or Army Rangers because there are few people out there with the disposition to begin with, nevertheless training.

I think if actually in this situation, these nuts would forget all about their gun. I think most would try to get their kids/loved ones out of harms way. They would have to be pretty steely for their first reaction to be "I'm getting out my weapon and taking this guy down."

I have a hard time believing in Oregon that amongst those 10k people at the mall that no one had a concealed weapon, whether legal or illegal, and i think that at the end of the day they were completely human and probably fled with their families.

This. My husband has a CWP and even if he happened to be carrying, his first instinct would be to get us the hell out of there. He would not just start firing back. The only way he would even attempt to take a shot would be if he had ample time to aim and a clear line of sight at the perpetrator. The chances of that actually happening in the situation of a mass shooting are slim to none. Most likely someone firing back would do more harm than good.

[doggie]

[Gil]

Yep, yep, yep.

The fundie God brutally slaughters children for not publicly praying enough, creates queer people and condemns them to Hell for existing, creates women with incredible gifts and condemns them to Hell for using them -- I think I'd rather be in Hell than with that God.

[jaynie]

This is bit OT. But there are lower murder rates in countries where atheist population are higher.

I think there is a fair bit of overlap there though. Atheism worldwide is correlated with higher education levels and higher standards of living, both of which in turn correlate to lower crime rates in general. The most stereotypically areligious-by-choice countries (the Scandinavian ones) also have very solid health care that I imagine would help to treat the kinds of mental illnesses that might lead to these tragedies*, or other, non-massacre murders. I'm not 100% certain on gun laws, but I'd venture a guess that they all have fairly strict control. So it's hard to weed out the cause from the correlates.

Sure does make a dent in the argument that God would prevent this, though, which I guess is what you were going for.

*I'm in no way implying that mentally ill people are all dangerous; I know that they are more likely to be victims, etc. HOWEVER, I would argue that anyone who can walk into a room full of children and slaughter them is not entirely mentally well, so I would reason that the more psychological care available to a person, the less likely they are to do something like this.

[samithemage]

My cousin posted this today. I couldn't help but respond "I probably shouldn't wade into this, but I just have to ask how do you remove an omnipotent being from anything? Also, God is "allowed" in schools, on a personal basis, just not on a school sanctioned one. Children are allowed to pray, to form informal religious groups, etc. I personally think that's the best way for things to be. When religion controls schools and politics you end up with countries like Saudi Arabia and Iran."

This sort of foolishness just pisses me off.

[Lillybee]

This is what our St. Rachel had to say about this foolishness.

http://maddowblog.msnbc.com/_news/2012/ ... n-god?lite

[slickcat79]

For perspective, I found an article on CNN about another attack on a primary school on Friday, this one in China. A lone attacker entered the school and injured 22 children with a knife. Some are still in critical condition, but so far the (officially) atheist country of China has not lost any children as a result of the day's attacks. What does that say about god's presence in schools?

Of course, we can see what really made the difference. Yeah, there are sick fucks everywhere who will try to hurt a bunch of schoolchildren for no reason, but it makes it a lot easier for the victims to survive when their attackers don't have access to assault rifles.

http://www.cnn.com/2012/12/14/world/asi ... ?hpt=wo_c2

[lilwriter85]

I think there is a fair bit of overlap there though. Atheism worldwide is correlated with higher education levels and higher standards of living, both of which in turn correlate to lower crime rates in general. The most stereotypically areligious-by-choice countries (the Scandinavian ones) also have very solid health care that I imagine would help to treat the kinds of mental illnesses that might lead to these tragedies*, or other, non-massacre murders. I'm not 100% certain on gun laws, but I'd venture a guess that they all have fairly strict control. So it's hard to weed out the cause from the correlates.

Sure does make a dent in the argument that God would prevent this, though, which I guess is what you were going for.

*I'm in no way implying that mentally ill people are all dangerous; I know that they are more likely to be victims, etc. HOWEVER, I would argue that anyone who can walk into a room full of children and slaughter them is not entirely mentally well, so I would reason that the more psychological care available to a person, the less likely they are to do something like this.

That was what I was kind going for. I get annoyed with the people who keep saying that "God needs to be back in schools" or stuff like "This happenend because God isn't in schools. You brought up good points on the correlations of higher education levels, standards of living, etc. Several months back on my FB feed one of the atheist pages released some chart about murder rates in countries related to beliefs or lack of belief/non-religious countries. I can't find that chart, but it was very interesting.

[doggie]

Hey Mike

[Arete]

Hey Mike

doggie,

If you ever decide you want an additional wife, I'm available. :lol: ;)

[Kaylee]

I have a hard time believing in Oregon that amongst those 10k people at the mall that no one had a concealed weapon, whether legal or illegal, and i think that at the end of the day they were completely human and probably fled with their families.

One guy actually di, and pulled a gun on the shooter, but did he not shoot because it wasn't safe with the other people moving around the mall in the line of fire: http://www.kgw.com/news/Clackamas-man-a ... 93571.html

You can't just shoot at a person in a crowded place, like some people seem to picture themselves doing, because there is always the danger of shooting someone nearby through either missing, a ricochet, or the bullet going through. The "ideal" self-defense situation is the attacked stopping or running away when they see the gun, but that's not probable when you're talking about a crazy/evil bastard who's already killed one or more people.

They also really underestimate what adrenaline does to you on those situations - it is hard as hell to aim or shoot when in fear or under stress because you will be shaking and having trouble controlling your breathing. That's one reason cops aim for center mass - this bullshit of head shoots or hitting a leg or arm just doesn't work in real life. Also, if they did manage to kill someone, that fucks with you really bad mentally, especially with kids and other civilians around. I know one of the officers who shot a mall shooter several years ago and one of the things that haunted him was finding out that a child who saw it was having nightmares about him coming in to her room and shooting her like he did the "bad man". How the hell do you prepare for that?

[NjoyingNsanity]

One of friends just posted on Facebook saying this happened because we took prayer out of schools, and even though I knew I shouldn't I posted how I felt about people saying those sorts of things it took her less than an hour to delete my post.

[Minerva]

I haven't seen anything like that on facebook. It's probably because I have exactly three fundy friends and one of them is hardly ever online. I have, however, seen someone repost a rant about how this happened because we're too consumeristic as a society. :roll:

[ems]

Oh fuck, the TEACHER SHOULD HAVE HAD A GUN? That's someone who doesn't know how guns or people work.

Something that really annoys me, sorry. I see this cropping up constantly on RW websites. They always say "If [whoever] had a gun they could shoot the bad guy in the head" or "Headshots to everyone in [rioting crowd]." Those are the words of someone who's played Battlefield 3 extensively and has never fired a gun in his life.

Headshots are really fucking difficult. You need to go for the centre mass to drop someone. I would definitely be very wary of firing to the centre mass in a class full of terrified children running and screaming. There's no guarantee that you will drop the guy, NOT HIT A CHILD and that you won't get shot yourself.

If you've ever fired a gun, the calm precision you can have on the range is nothing like what it is IRL. When I've fired a gun I got to line up my shot, aim via sights sometimes (when firing a rifle) and wait until I was confident of making the shot. (I'm not any use with the pistol, I'm OK at sighted rifle).

If I was a teacher in a classroom and I had a gun under my desk I wouldn't use it. Why not? Getting a clear aim is VITAL. You don't have that. You're in a room with scared small children and a gunman with murderous intent.

You might own a gun but not be proficient. Most gun owners aren't. If I had a pistol style gun I'd fuck up. I don't aim correctly with pistol style weaponry. I especially wouldn't in a situation like that. There aren't many people who can truthfully say they'd do the drill and the guy would go down. Does not happen.

It also scares me to have a gun around small children. This is a good plan how?

It's just a fantasy, similar to the people who say "I'll never be attacked. I do everything right." In reality it's a horrible chaotic situation and all bets are off.

THIS.

And that's if you even got to the gun. Presumably it would be in a locked safe. And no matter how trained, a teacher isn't going to think, "oh, I hear gunfire, better unlock my gun now" and proceed to rationally attain said gun. And if it isn't locked up...uh, yeah...

[ems]

I think both God and the Devil tend to get credit for things they had no part of. The short answer to the "God allows it" for religious people who are not Pat Robertson, is that if God will stop every human action that should not be, human existence has no meaning. You are a puppet on a string and your choices don't matter. Your will means nothing, your conscience means nothing. Just my personal view, but seeking the kingdom of God means improving the world for ALL people and bringing the kingdom of God to earth. It doesn't mean pray and watch your neighbors burn in the Apocalypse of God that I don't believe in or the apocalypse that men and women on earth bring on with their own actions.

We fail as a society and mass shooters rise up. As a Christian that tells me we need to address the ills that contributed to his actions (guns, mental illness, hopelessness), not hope he can supernaturally be stopped once he goes over the edge.

And this.

[ems]

For perspective, I found an article on CNN about another attack on a primary school on Friday, this one in China. A lone attacker entered the school and injured 22 children with a knife. Some are still in critical condition, but so far the (officially) atheist country of China has not lost any children as a result of the day's attacks. What does that say about god's presence in schools?

Of course, we can see what really made the difference. Yeah, there are sick fucks everywhere who will try to hurt a bunch of schoolchildren for no reason, but it makes it a lot easier for the victims to survive when their attackers don't have access to assault rifles.

http://www.cnn.com/2012/12/14/world/asi ... ?hpt=wo_c2

Semi OT but

When I brought this up (the lack of deaths in this incident) after a commenter on fb posted with "should we ban knives?" the commenter responded that the Communist government in China wouldn't allow reporting whether there was any loss of life.

But really? Can't we at least admit that a knife is a much less powerful tool (of violence) than a semi-automatic weapon...

[JesusFightClub]

This is unlikely, IMO.

The Chinese government, as we know, is hardcore innit. They will lie about things. (They're a different kind of Communist to me. Think of it like a church. We're not on the same side of the aisle. Or in China's case, I don't reckon we're in the same building).

But they are not North Korea. If bad things happen they don't automatically deny. They're more likely to say and then give a reason. The reason might be off but the declaration happens. If kids died I think they would say.

They're not as insanely invested in the idea of a perfect state as NK is. They can't be, different historical and political background and a huge land mass to cover.

[Aisling]

This is unlikely, IMO.

The Chinese government, as we know, is hardcore innit. They will lie about things. (They're a different kind of Communist to me. Think of it like a church. We're not on the same side of the aisle. Or in China's case, I don't reckon we're in the same building).

But they are not North Korea. If bad things happen they don't automatically deny. They're more likely to say and then give a reason. The reason might be off but the declaration happens. If kids died I think they would say.

They're not as insanely invested in the idea of a perfect state as NK is. They can't be, different historical and political background and a huge land mass to cover.

^^this

Also, a year or two ago there was an incident in China when a little girl got ran over and was left lying on the street, footage showed that something like 30 people walked past her.

It was really embarrassing for China and a lot of people felt very ashamed

But it was still something everyone was aware of etc

[RosyDaisy]

No, this massacre occurred because a trouble young adult got his hands on gun, and set out to kill people. It has nothing to do with God being in or out of schools.

[patsymae]

So if violence against children in schools is because of a lack of god in the schools, what happened with the Amish school in Nickel Mines, Pa., where kids got killed? Amish aren't religious enough?