Obama: "Rape is Rape. It Is A Crime"

[BlackHawk]

I actually do think women's right to abortion, bc, etc affects the economy but I don't think republicans are immediately going to be able to overturn roe v wade. I really don't think mitt is all that great, it was kpre of a balancing test for me.

Not sure what you're talking about about propaganda - I don't think Obama is/was a Muslim. I don't think his religious beliefs have anything to d with his Mideast policy. I have seen him snub Israel and its leaders over and over and I will even admit that I'm biased when it comes to Israel because my brother and his family (including two innocent babies) live there and are under pretty constant threat from all sides.

If Obama had done better these last four years, I'd vote to give him a bit longer to prove himself. But he's taking us backwards, not forwards on the economy. Time to give somebody else a shot.

Also, honestly everybody, I'm sorry I don't have time to engage in a real political debate. I have not been on here much at all the past few months. Maybe I should have said nothing, but I just got tired of hearing that everbody who votes Romney must be an idiot or hate women, etc etc.

I think there are intelligent critical thinkers on both sides. It's a little silly to assert that 50% of the population can't or won't use logic when it comes to their vote.

There are critical thinkers on both sides... and no one asked you to get in to a real political debate... they just want proof of what you said that Romney had a good economics plan. If you voted for him based on his economic plan, can you please point us to this plan? Can you point us to where Romney has outlined his plan in details like you can find for Obama?

[Beeks]

I agree with this. The threats on women's rights are real and concrete, and the perceived threats to Israel seem to me like fear mongering and definitely not a sure thing. Romney is for sure going to destroy women's rights. But I don't think Obama is a threat to Israel, and it's definitely not as sure a thing as what Romney is going to do to women's rights. I have family that I love in Israel too, but I don't think that should be the only reason someone votes for an American president. My family in Israel is also fiercely pro choice and pro gay rights, and they think Romney is a weirdo. I've never encountered a non-American who thinks Romney is anything but a backwards weirdo.

1) I don't think Obama himself is a threat to Israel. The concrete threats come from nations like Iran, who talk openly of their goals to destroy Israel. The problem I have with Obama is that he hasn't given Israel the support it needs and deserves from the us (I also think it's in our self interest to maintain such a strong ally in the middle east).

2) Israel is not my only issue - my bigger issue is the economy

3) I don't like Romney all that much either. But I know lots of Israelis who are for him (and lots against too, to be fair)

[Beeks]

There are critical thinkers on both sides... and no one asked you to get in to a real political debate... they just want proof of what you said that Romney had a good economics plan. If you voted for him based on his economic plan, can you please point us to this plan? Can you point us to where Romney has outlined his plan in details like you can find for Obama?

His plan is outlined on his website.

What kind of details are you looking for?

[Beeks]

I will try to be back in a few hours, I have babies waking up from naps now.

[wtfrenchtoast]

The details I am looking for are YOUR view of what Romney's policies actually are, and why that made you vote for him. Do you support his proposed increases in military spending? What about the voucher program for Medicare? Do you really think a 10% corporate tax cut will suddenly make manufacturing jobs come back when comapnies like Apple can pay a factory worker something ridiculous like $4 a day in a developing country? Why is he suddenly slamming China when he made his fortune by shipping jobs over to them?

ETA: I had this conversation with my father last week actually. He asked me who I would vote for if Mitt Romney had a guaranteed plan to magically fix the economy, but he was still against my right to choose. Well, I don't care. I will never vote for someone who doesn't support my right to choose what to do with my body. Ever. What good is a great economy going to do for me if I can't even maintain autonomy over my own body? What good is 5% unemployment if I have to stay home with a kid? Eff that noise. A pro-lifer will never get my vote.

[Guest Anonymous]

I've had a quick look at Romney's website. I've browsed the economy section. If you have looked at it, and think these are good ideas, then you deserve what you get.

Mitt Romney will rebuild the foundations of the American economy on the principles of free enterprise, hard work, and innovation. His plan seeks to reduce taxes, spending, regulation, and government programs. It seeks to increase trade, energy production, human capital, and labor flexibility. It relinquishes power to the states instead of claiming to have the solution to every problem.

Let's start randomly, and dangerously, free-wheeling; let's pay for nothing; and let's have corporations do whatever they want to their employees and their customers! Because a desire for profit is absolutely the best motivating factor to protect average people (every eye-roll in the world). See you in the sweat shops, kids!

Edited for basic tweaks.

[ceg045]

I'd also venture to say that for anyone for whom Middle East issues are important, voting for someone who isn't aware that Iran has a coastline might result in something of a disappointment in that area.

[Austin]

I actually do think women's right to abortion, bc, etc affects the economy but I don't think republicans are immediately going to be able to overturn roe v wade. I really don't think mitt is all that great, it was kpre of a balancing test for me.

Not sure what you're talking about about propaganda - I don't think Obama is/was a Muslim. I don't think his religious beliefs have anything to d with his Mideast policy. I have seen him snub Israel and its leaders over and over and I will even admit that I'm biased when it comes to Israel because my brother and his family (including two innocent babies) live there and are under pretty constant threat from all sides.

If Obama had done better these last four years, I'd vote to give him a bit longer to prove himself. But he's taking us backwards, not forwards on the economy. Time to give somebody else a shot.

Also, honestly everybody, I'm sorry I don't have time to engage in a real political debate. I have not been on here much at all the past few months. Maybe I should have said nothing, but I just got tired of hearing that everbody who votes Romney must be an idiot or hate women, etc etc.

I think there are intelligent critical thinkers on both sides. It's a little silly to assert that 50% of the population can't or won't use logic when it comes to their vote.

ALL babies are innocent; Israeli babies are no more or less innocent than any other babies. Just because Bebe Netanyahu blusters about his fee-fees being hurt or feeling "snubbed" does not mean that the president does not support Israel. There are no objective facts to back up such an assertion.

And I actually don't believe you're a particularly critical thinker, given your posts over a long period of time. The fact that you refuse to see how women's right to self determine has a DIRECT effect on the economy is but one example. All Romney needs to overturn Roe v Wade is one supreme court justice, and since several on the court are elderly and somewhat infirm, he is likely to have that opportunity during a Romney term (heaven help us). IIRC, you've said you're an attorney, so I'm sure you understand that. Within a relatively short period of time, an unfortunate ruling on Roe would send the issue back to the states. As with civil rights and any number of other issues, the states do not have a good record of putting legislation into effect that respects the rights of certain portions of their citizens. Millions of women would be cut off from the right to self-determine almost immediately following such a ruling.

And it's not at all silly to assert that 50% of the population can't or won't use logic when it comes to their vote. You don't have to think too hard or be that much of a historical genius to realize that people in large percentages have supported horrendous leaders.

[formergothardite]

So if the social issues were racial, would you still vote for Mitt?

[JenniferJuniper]

I've had a quick look at Romney's website. I've browsed the economy section. If you have looked at it, and think these are good ideas, then you deserve what you get.

Let's start randomly, and dangerously, free-wheeling, pay for nothing, and let corporations do whatever they want to their employees and their customers! Because a desire for profit is absolutely the best motivating factor to protect average people (every eye-roll in the world). See you in the sweat shops, kids!

Yes, this dude should be running for King of China, not President of the United States.....

But we'll never hear from any of Romney's supporters on specifics regarding why they think he'll do better than Obama with the economy. Because he hasn't articulated anything beyond tax cuts for very wealthy people and of course for huge corporations, which of course he considers to be "people" too. "Corporations are people, my friend." Mitt Romney 8/10/11

Obama has a track record of success since taking over from that miserable failure Bush. We know what he's about. Romney is nothing more than a big old blank slate, beholden to right wing Christianist nut jobs and massive corporations.

Blind faith in a person like this is nothing more than pure ignorance.

[Deleted03]

1) I don't think Obama himself is a threat to Israel. The concrete threats come from nations like Iran, who talk openly of their goals to destroy Israel. The problem I have with Obama is that he hasn't given Israel the support it needs and deserves from the us (I also think it's in our self interest to maintain such a strong ally in the middle east).

2) Israel is not my only issue - my bigger issue is the economy

3) I don't like Romney all that much either. But I know lots of Israelis who are for him (and lots against too, to be fair)

Israel does not deserve shit.

There I said it.

Now there are innocents there too, that deserve protection, but if the political class and the extremists would stop thinking that expanding Israel was something they were due, that waging war on Lebanon when they feel like it is due, that continuously discriminating against Muslims and Palestinians is their right, that controlling the borders of the Palestinian Territory is their right, then there would be fuck all threats to their very existence. Iran has threatened everyone and their neighbor who oppose them. As was pointed out Romney does not even know Iran has access to sea, so what is it going to be the US a puppet to Israel's will? How is that ever going to turn out ok?

Israel's political elite has made their own bed and now that have to lay in it. Don't worry, all this insecurity is beneficial to them (yeah they're regular politicians who look for profit). You want to read something on the conflict? Here I have three books for you:

David Hirst's "The Roots of Violence in the Middle East," Norman Finkelstein "Image and Reality of the Israel Palestine Conflict" or Noam Chomsky's "Fateful Triangle: The US, Israel and Palestine."

http://www.amazon.com/The-Gun-Olive-Bra ... avid+hirst

http://www.amazon.com/Reality-Israel-Pa ... e+conflict

http://www.amazon.com/Fateful-Triangle- ... l+triangle

Inform yourself before saying anyone owes Israel.

[wtfrenchtoast]

Israel does not deserve shit.

There I said it.

Now there are innocents there too, that deserve protection, but if the political class and the extremists would stop thinking that expanding Israel was something they were due, that waging war on Lebanon when they feel like it is due, that continuously discriminating against Muslims and Palestinians is their right, that controlling the borders of the Palestinian Territory is their right, then there would be fuck all threats to their very existence. Iran has threatened everyone and their neighbor who oppose them. As was pointed out Romney does not even know Iran has access to sea, so what is it going to be the US a puppet to Israel's will? How is that ever going to turn out ok?

Israel's political elite has made their own bed and now that have to lay in it. Don't worry, all this insecurity is beneficial to them (yeah they're regular politicians who look for profit). You want to read something on the conflict? Here I have three books for you:

David Hirst's "The Roots of Violence in the Middle East," Norman Finkelstein "Image and Reality of the Israel Palestine Conflict" or Noam Chomsky's "Fateful Triangle: The US, Israel and Palestine."

http://www.amazon.com/The-Gun-Olive-Bra ... avid+hirst

http://www.amazon.com/Reality-Israel-Pa ... e+conflict

http://www.amazon.com/Fateful-Triangle- ... l+triangle

Inform yourself before saying anyone owes Israel.

THANK YOU for having the balls to say this. :clap:

[Witsec7]

Ok, I'll admit it here: I voted for Romney, I'm also pro-choice and pro-same sex marriage (I live in WA so I voted for marriage equality on the same ballot I used to vote for Romney).

My thinking was that yes, social issues are important. Hugely important. But the country is falling apart around us and I don't think the democrats' fiscal policies are going to help. I think 4 more years of Obama will put us in danger of the country sinking into such a deep depression that issues like abortion and gay marriage will be put on the back burner while people try to simply put food on the table.

I know lots of folks disagree on the best way to come out of the recession, what caused it, etc etc, and I don't want to argue that online. Just wanted to say that not all women who vote for Romney hate our sex or buy the republican women-hating bull. It was more a balance of which issues were more important to me personally right now.

Eta: I'm Jewish with immediate family living in Israel, so that was another huge reason I couldn't vote for Obama this year.

The next president will likely replace three supreme court justices. This new SOC will likely hear challenges to Roe v Wade and be part of the appeals process for much of the recent anti woman legislation. I do not want to think what redefining rape will do to women in this country, and I do have clear memories of life before Roe v Wade. I must prefer to take my chances on three supreme court justices appointed by Obama than three replacements appointed by Willard.

Edited to add: FFS during the last debate Obama outlined his support for Israel, I don't agree with it, they should get off our tit.

[formergothardite]

Wait, that is Mitt's big plan to save the economy? Why exactly do you think this will work, Beeks?

[Beeks]

Posting from my phone, so forgive typos please.

I can't blame you for not thinking I'm a critical thinker based on my posts on here. The last three years of my life have been insane and I've been rushed sleep deprived and overly stressed more often than not. That's why I greatly stepped back my posting - I knew I was coming off badly and didn't have the time or inclination to do much better. I should have kept my politics to myself here as well, particularly since it has nothing to do with the topic of this board.

[Arete]

Supporting the right of ISR to exist as a Jewish state does not mean we are obligated to follow that asshole Netanyahu to the gates of hell. If the Israelis feel that the support the US gives in guaranteeing their existence is not enough, they are free to refuse our money. They are also free to use up their own money and their own sons and daughters going to war with Iran. It makes me mad enough I have to fight religious fanaticism here, I am not at all happy with bankrolling Jewish crazies who think they have some sort of Biblical "right" to the territories.

[JenniferJuniper]

Posting from my phone, so forgive typos please.

I can't blame you for not thinking I'm a critical thinker based on my posts on here. The last three years of my life have been insane and I've been rushed sleep deprived and overly stressed more often than not. That's why I greatly stepped back my posting - I knew I was coming off badly and didn't have the time or inclination to do much better. I should have kept my politics to myself here as well, particularly since it has nothing to do with the topic of this board.

Thank you for confirming for us that you had no idea what you were doing when you voted for Romney because of his so-called "economic policies".

Feel better soon.

[E Street Fan]

Israel does not deserve shit.

There I said it.

Now there are innocents there too, that deserve protection, but if the political class and the extremists would stop thinking that expanding Israel was something they were due, that waging war on Lebanon when they feel like it is due, that continuously discriminating against Muslims and Palestinians is their right, that controlling the borders of the Palestinian Territory is their right, then there would be fuck all threats to their very existence. Iran has threatened everyone and their neighbor who oppose them. As was pointed out Romney does not even know Iran has access to sea, so what is it going to be the US a puppet to Israel's will? How is that ever going to turn out ok?

Israel's political elite has made their own bed and now that have to lay in it. Don't worry, all this insecurity is beneficial to them (yeah they're regular politicians who look for profit). You want to read something on the conflict?

Inform yourself before saying anyone owes Israel.

:clap: :clap: :clap:

[JesusFightClub]

Israel, like abortion, is a no-no topic for me online. So I won't.

I will say however that people who think "cutting the public sector" will grow the economy are utterly daft. This is late period capitalism in one of its periodic cycles of boom and bust, it's nothing to do with particular politicians who you don't like. Also, where do you think the PRIVATE sector gets its money from? Where I have worked in the public sector we subsidised hundreds of all different sizes of business from small to unspeakably huge through procurement contracts for, well, pretty much everything. It's not as if there's a magical government pit where we pull all that shit from when we need it.

Strangely enough, cutting government contracts means losing business, and this isn't Atlas Shrugged. No-one steps up to the plate and commends you for your manly businesslike attitude and asks for a thousand tons of Rearden Steel. You are, objectively, fucked.

I was talking to a taxi driver the other day whose firm had been outbid in a contract from the public sector (who they used to supply). He said "Things are getting desperate since we lost it. Huge blow for me, my takings are down so much that I thought I was going to have to pack it in. If we lose one more contract we'll go under." Voice of small business, right there.

There's also the small matter that "cutting the public sector" means cutting jobs. This means people who used to work are signing on and don't have any fucking money. They therefore are going to struggle to buy things. Not buying things creates a problem for, guess who? The private sector.

I'm not saying I like the economic system we have now. I've spent most of my life working against it. But those are the present economic realities, and anyone who says "If we could just get rid of the bloated public sector" ought to think on. Replace it with...what?

[galaxygirl]

Wait, that is Mitt's big plan to save the economy?

I bet it's like Josh Lyman's secret plan to fight inflation :lol:

[Beeks]

Thank you for confirming for us that you had no idea what you were doing when you voted for Romney because of his so-called "economic policies".

Feel better soon.

Not at all what I said or meant. I did my research, watched all the debates, etc etc and I feel voted for the better candidate. I honestly think they both suck, but what else is new.

I just don't have the mental energy to defend my positions to random strangers, especially online because communicating in writing is already taxing to me (it takes a lot of effort). I realize you were probably just being facetious but my only point was I shouldn't have started something I had no desire to finish.

[emmiedahl]

Did I miss why Israel deserves American support? No one deserves it, not unless they have bailed our asses out at some point and we have not repaid the favor. Even so, Obama is doing the same things as Presidents before him, merely less enthusiastically.

Seriously, Netanyahu is a colossal asshole who is committing egregious offenses against human rights. It is a chillul hashem and makes Jews look bad. I don't Palestinian babies starving in my name, not as an American and not as a Jew.

Let's get some sane leadership back in Israel and then I will feel better about the President kowtowing to them--but not before.

[JenniferJuniper]

Not at all what I said or meant. I did my research, watched all the debates, etc etc and I feel voted for the better candidate. I honestly think they both suck, but what else is new.

I just don't have the mental energy to defend my positions to random strangers, especially online because communicating in writing is already taxing to me (it takes a lot of effort). I realize you were probably just being facetious but my only point was I shouldn't have started something I had no desire to finish.

No, I was not being facetious.

You have been asked to support statements and positions you've taken. You've responded by saying you have no energy to respond.

But sincerely, I do hope you feel better soon.

[Witsec7]

Not at all what I said or meant. I did my research, watched all the debates, etc etc and I feel voted for the better candidate. I honestly think they both suck, but what else is new.

I just don't have the mental energy to defend my positions to random strangers, especially online because communicating in writing is already taxing to me (it takes a lot of effort). I realize you were probably just being facetious but my only point was I shouldn't have started something I had no desire to finish.

I think Margaret and Helen said it best:

And if you are a women voting Republican in this election, bless your heart, you clearly have bigger problems than the economy and you really might want to consider investing in some self respect.

[Sprocket]

I think Margaret and Helen said it best:

Perfection all in one sentence.