Obama: "Rape is Rape. It Is A Crime"

[Distant Lines]

Know how I know that Romney hasn't released any real economic plan? Because my grandfather, who told me he was voting for Romney because of his economic policies, couldn't even tell me what those policies were. I asked him what they were because I hear people say that, but no one could tell me anything about them. He then spent two hours educated me on economics, but never was there any mention of any plan of Romney's. And my grandfather is quite a well-read educated man. If he can't give me anything, I feel confident that nothing exists.

[Guest Anonymous]

Voting for Romney because of fiscal issues is buying a pig in a poke in my opinion - since he absolutely refuses to tell voters the details of his financial plan, and the information that is out there on it comes largely from one source and is hotly disputed. I also think that fighting very expensive wars helped get us into the mess we're in, and I think Romney is way more likely to jump into another one than Presdident Obama.

That said, everyone's vote is their own. I may (and do, in this case) completely disagree with it, but that's our system and I think it works best when everyone participates. I won't vote for someone who recognizes the personhood of a fetus but not that of a woman or an LGBTQ person, but I guess that's probably considered voting with my vagina.

[Austin]

Women's right to self-determine is an ECONOMIC issue. :shock:

[SPHASH]

Since Mary was 14 when she gave birth to Jesus, and God is the father, wouldn't God be guilty of rape since Mary was a minor? Or did Joseph get blamed for it?

[crazyforkate]

When you hear the statements from the various Republican politicians, and the statement from Obama, one has to worry about why this election is so close.

[formergothardite]

Ok, I'll admit it here: I voted for Romney, I'm also pro-choice and pro-same sex marriage (I live in WA so I voted for marriage equality on the same ballot I used to vote for Romney).

My thinking was that yes, social issues are important. Hugely important. But the country is falling apart around us and I don't think the democrats' fiscal policies are going to help. I think 4 more years of Obama will put us in danger of the country sinking into such a deep depression that issues like abortion and gay marriage will be put on the back burner while people try to simply put food on the table.

I know lots of folks disagree on the best way to come out of the recession, what caused it, etc etc, and I don't want to argue that online. Just wanted to say that not all women who vote for Romney hate our sex or buy the republican women-hating bull. It was more a balance of which issues were more important to me personally right now.

Eta: I'm Jewish with immediate family living in Israel, so that was another huge reason I couldn't vote for Obama this year.

Well since you voted for him, can you explain his economic plan?

ETA: If the social issues involved racism, would you still vote for Mitt?

[SayNoToMullets]

Women's right to self-determine is an ECONOMIC issue. :shock:

QFT, and it can't be said enough because I think a lot of people (not here at FJ, but generally) aren't getting it. It's expensive to raise a child! And the very people looking to ban abortion are the ones looking to do away with the social safety nets that become necessary when a woman cannot afford that expense. Either they're living in a fantasy world where the unicorns will care for the child, or they simply don't give a shit about anyone's welfare over the age of 40 weeks gestation. Probably both.

[Burris]

'Rape is rape. It is a crime.'

It's sad just how radical this simple, facual statement has now become in the post-intellectual United States.

[Deleted03]

Ok, I'll admit it here: I voted for Romney, I'm also pro-choice and pro-same sex marriage (I live in WA so I voted for marriage equality on the same ballot I used to vote for Romney).

My thinking was that yes, social issues are important. Hugely important. But the country is falling apart around us and I don't think the democrats' fiscal policies are going to help. I think 4 more years of Obama will put us in danger of the country sinking into such a deep depression that issues like abortion and gay marriage will be put on the back burner while people try to simply put food on the table.

I know lots of folks disagree on the best way to come out of the recession, what caused it, etc etc, and I don't want to argue that online. Just wanted to say that not all women who vote for Romney hate our sex or buy the republican women-hating bull. It was more a balance of which issues were more important to me personally right now.

Eta: I'm Jewish with immediate family living in Israel, so that was another huge reason I couldn't vote for Obama this year.

Why? Because Obama is not giving unconditional support to a country that segregate muslims, does not give them rights? Because contrary to Romney, Obama would not involve Israel in the Syrian conflict when Syrians still remember the Golan theft? Because someone is finally showing a little courage to put Israel back to its place and admit that it's not a freedom place?

You voted for someone that has kept lying in every debate, someone who thinks that development goes through oil production, not through sustainable development, someone who keeps changing his discourse to every audience he meets. Someone who does not know one thing about international politics? Who has ideas of an imperial US that can freely exploit Latin America, that can police everywhere in the world and that everyone will be grateful? Who does not get that not only his economic policies are what put the whole world (no not just the US) in a recession, put also what fed terrorism too?

It is more important for you that those things happen, rather than protecting women's rights? protecting those who are on food stamps because they can't afford food? It's up to you if that's what you believe, but let's be clear about you voted for.

[formergothardite]

Granted it is very hard for me to figure out exactly what Romney believes, but I keep hearing people talk about how he will totally be a good president because he is a successful businessman. But didn't he make his money by buying factories, closing them down and sending the jobs to China?

[ElphabaGalinda]

QFT, and it can't be said enough because I think a lot of people (not here at FJ, but generally) aren't getting it. It's expensive to raise a child! And the very people looking to ban abortion are the ones looking to do away with the social safety nets that become necessary when a woman cannot afford that expense. Either they're living in a fantasy world where the unicorns will care for the child, or they simply don't give a shit about anyone's welfare over the age of 40 weeks gestation. Probably both.

:clap: More unwanted babies means more poverty. More women who can't contribute to the economy the way they otherwise should have. And those same people that want to force unwanted children on people want to do away with all the programs that help the poor. I don't understand how forcing women to have children helps the economy. I'm not American, so no vote for me, but I would never vote for Romney because he doesn't think I deserve basic rights, both as a woman and as a lesbian. Though Romney hasn't explained how he will fix the economy, even if he had, having basic rights just has to be the most important thing to me. I don't want to live with an American Taliban, and what Romney believes heads too far in that direction.

[Guest Anonymous]

Why? Because Obama is not giving unconditional support to a country that segregate muslims, does not give them rights? Because contrary to Romney, Obama would not involve Israel in the Syrian conflict when Syrians still remember the Golan theft? Because someone is finally showing a little courage to put Israel back to its place and admit that it's not a freedom place?

You voted for someone that has kept lying in every debate, someone who thinks that development goes through oil production, not through sustainable development, someone who keeps changing his discourse to every audience he meets. Someone who does not know one thing about international politics? Who has ideas of an imperial US that can freely exploit Latin America, that can police everywhere in the world and that everyone will be grateful? Who does not get that not only his economic policies are what put the whole world (no not just the US) in a recession, put also what fed terrorism too?

It is more important for you that those things happen, rather than protecting women's rights? protecting those who are on food stamps because they can't afford food? It's up to you if that's what you believe, but let's be clear about you voted for.

I was wondering about this. I'm not Israeli but I do have a lot of Israeli friends, and European friends with strong ties to Israel (living there part-time, etc.).* I don't understand what about being Jewish, and having family in Israel, prevents you from voting for Obama. From what I could tell, Mitt Romney's only attempt at foreign relations was GaffeTour 2012, running around offending people and throwing out those creepy promises of violence and military action.

*Reading this back, it sounds like 'some of my best friends are black' but it really isn't that.

(Edited: Wording tweak. There's a difference between 'their' and 'there'.)

[GeoBQn]

I know a few otherwise liberal Jews who are voting for Romney because of Israel, and they seem to be spending most of their discussions on FB and with other people using major cognitive dissonance to defend their positions. Frankly, I think the idea that Obama can't be trusted on Israel is based on "Obama is a secret Muslim" fear mongering. No American president is ever going to completely give up strong ties with Israel. As much as I love Israel, the threats on women's rights feel more immediate and concrete to me than fears of threats to Israel.

[ElphabaGalinda]

I know a few otherwise liberal Jews who are voting for Romney because of Israel, and they seem to be spending most of their discussions on FB and with other people using major cognitive dissonance to defend their positions. Frankly, I think the idea that Obama can't be trusted on Israel is based on "Obama is a secret Muslim" fear mongering. No American president is ever going to completely give up strong ties with Israel. As much as I love Israel, the threats on women's rights feel more immediate and concrete to me than fears of threats to Israel.

I agree with this. The threats on women's rights are real and concrete, and the perceived threats to Israel seem to me like fear mongering and definitely not a sure thing. Romney is for sure going to destroy women's rights. But I don't think Obama is a threat to Israel, and it's definitely not as sure a thing as what Romney is going to do to women's rights. I have family that I love in Israel too, but I don't think that should be the only reason someone votes for an American president. My family in Israel is also fiercely pro choice and pro gay rights, and they think Romney is a weirdo. I've never encountered a non-American who thinks Romney is anything but a backwards weirdo.

[JenniferJuniper]

I don't want to live with an American Taliban, and what Romney believes heads too far in that direction.

Exactly.

The "Christian" right is bound and determined to take this country over and Romney would be completely beholden to them if elected. Toss in both houses of Congress and the fact that the media as we knew it no longer exists in this country, and we're immediately headed in an extremist religious direction.

Can't happen here? Of course it can, and there is tons of money behind these people. And Romney is a vulture capitalist - not a business man as he likes to claim. He'll be working every day to finish off what's left of the middle class to further shore up the 1%'s power. He is a ruthless man with an agenda. An agenda that he's (usually) careful not to reveal to us regular folks.

I believe the middle and working class people who support Romney fall mostly into two categories - religious nuts and low information voters. Sadly, we have way too many of both of these in the US.

[JenniferJuniper]

I've never encountered a non-American who thinks Romney is anything but a backwards weirdo.

Romney is neither backwards nor a weirdo. He's a craven liar who has proven he'll do and say anything to get into power and further his agenda of transferring even more wealth into the hands of the wealthy and powerful.

He's using the extremists to get into power, but as he also personally doesn't give a shit about the rights or the finances of anyone who is not a member of his class, he'll happily go along with their agenda. Hell, if it worked for him once, he's going to keep them happy for the next election cycle.

He's universally despised in Massachusetts for a reason.

[slickcat79]

Yes, and if someone is "back burnering" basic human rights because he or she is enamored with Romney's economic policies, I'd be very curious to know what those specific policies are. He’s outlined nothing more than more tax cuts and more wars.

Me too :? I understand some people see merit in conservative economic ideas, generally, but I don't think recent republicans would know real conservative economics if it bit them on the ass. Regardless of all the things that politicians say, there's a lot more to enacting policy than what the president wants, or claims he wants. You have to get your policies through a system of checks and balances, and once all that happens I don't see Romney doing anything remarkably different from Obama. Especially since it is physically impossible for him to keep all the promises he's made to various groups.

I also don't really see evidence that things are continuing to deteriorate. I used to work for an engineering company that lost something like 40% of its workforce between 2008 and 2010. It was largely their government clients that sustained them through that time, and they were really seeing a turnaround beginning last year. The economy still has plenty of room for improvement, so that's something to consider re: policy decisions, but I don't think Obama's decisions represent some kind of dismal failure.

[SayNoToMullets]

:clap: More unwanted babies means more poverty. More women who can't contribute to the economy the way they otherwise should have. And those same people that want to force unwanted children on people want to do away with all the programs that help the poor. I don't understand how forcing women to have children helps the economy. I'm not American, so no vote for me, but I would never vote for Romney because he doesn't think I deserve basic rights, both as a woman and as a lesbian. Though Romney hasn't explained how he will fix the economy, even if he had, having basic rights just has to be the most important thing to me. I don't want to live with an American Taliban, and what Romney believes heads too far in that direction.

MTE. I'm not willing to trade on human dignity for any promise of economic growth, and his promises ring particularly empty. I'm an MSW student about to graduate in the spring, and while most students in my program understand that job prospects in our field would be better under an Obama second term, I've heard undergrads say that they would vote for Romney because they want jobs when they graduate. I think that's a naive view of it. It's not like he would hand out jobs - any minor boost in the economy, which isn't a given, would still not take the work out of finding a job. We're all going to be interviewing our asses off this spring. No matter who's in office. Of course, the right probably thinks I should have gone for an MRS instead of an MSW, but let that be neither here nor there.

[ElphabaGalinda]

Romney is neither backwards nor a weirdo. He's a craven liar who has proven he'll do and say anything to get into power and further his agenda of transferring even more wealth into the hands of the wealthy and powerful.

He's using the extremists to get into power, but as he also personally doesn't give a shit about the rights or the finances of anyone who is not a member of his class, he'll happily go along with their agenda. Hell, if it worked for him once, he's going to keep them happy for the next election cycle.

He's universally despised in Massachusetts for a reason.

I think Massachussetts is awesome :D One of my favourite states, and despising Romney is even better. Someone running for the leader of a country on a platform of being anti choice and anti gay just seems like a backwards weirdo to anyone from countries where that would not be acceptable. I suspect our prime minister is personally both those things, but it'd be politically stupid for him to talk about it, because he wouldn't have a chance. What bothers me most about him is how all he cares about are people just as wealthy and powerful as he is, but even pretending to be an extremist (I'm pretty sure he's pretending), makes him look fairly backwards. Having a president have to say that rape is a crime because of what the other side's been doing seems pretty backwards to me. What the whole republican party has become is unfathomable to other countries.

[Wolfie]

I was going to post something about "WTF is up with all the garbage that calls Obama anti Israel"? Pretty much all I've seen is propoganda put out by extreme right wing groups, and when pressed, both candidates say about the same thing.

[Austin]

Well since you voted for him, can you explain his economic plan?

ETA: If the social issues involved racism, would you still vote for Mitt?

Yeah, good luck getting real answers.

Beeks, they say that sometimes we get the government we deserve. Thanks to people like you, I fear that is often the case. As I said, women's right to self-determine IS an economic issue and the fact that you don't see that brings huge doubt about your critical thinking abilities, or at least your willingness to critically think. And shame on you for furthering the propaganda put out by the extreme right wing vis-a-vis Obama and Israel.

[wtfrenchtoast]

I took would like to hear more about this magical economic plan that cuts taxes AND still raises money to reduce the deficit. That would be great. If Romney has specifics, where can I find them?

[mirele]

Science-fiction writer John Scalzi writes a letter to certain conservative politicians about rape.

It's well-written but it's not a pleasant read, because it's from the perspective of the rapist.

So you are warned, it's triggering and gut-churning.

http://whatever.scalzi.com/2012/10/25/a ... liticians/

But I sure as hell wish the conservative politicians would read this and then STFU about rape and abortion FOREVER. But no, like rapists, they want to control women too!

[Beeks]

Yeah, good luck getting real answers.

Beeks, they say that sometimes we get the government we deserve. Thanks to people like you, I fear that is often the case. As I said, women's right to self-determine IS an economic issue and the fact that you don't see that brings huge doubt about your critical thinking abilities, or at least your willingness to critically think. And shame on you for furthering the propaganda put out by the extreme right wing vis-a-vis Obama and Israel.

I actually do think women's right to abortion, bc, etc affects the economy but I don't think republicans are immediately going to be able to overturn roe v wade. I really don't think mitt is all that great, it was kpre of a balancing test for me.

Not sure what you're talking about about propaganda - I don't think Obama is/was a Muslim. I don't think his religious beliefs have anything to d with his Mideast policy. I have seen him snub Israel and its leaders over and over and I will even admit that I'm biased when it comes to Israel because my brother and his family (including two innocent babies) live there and are under pretty constant threat from all sides.

If Obama had done better these last four years, I'd vote to give him a bit longer to prove himself. But he's taking us backwards, not forwards on the economy. Time to give somebody else a shot.

Also, honestly everybody, I'm sorry I don't have time to engage in a real political debate. I have not been on here much at all the past few months. Maybe I should have said nothing, but I just got tired of hearing that everbody who votes Romney must be an idiot or hate women, etc etc.

I think there are intelligent critical thinkers on both sides. It's a little silly to assert that 50% of the population can't or won't use logic when it comes to their vote.

[wtfrenchtoast]

Can you at least detail exactly what Romney's economic plans are and why you think they will help?

ETA: Can you also detail exactly how Obama's policies are moving us backwards?