Right Wing Pagans

[Buggaboo]

Can someone please explain to me the logic behind someone who worships an alternative religion being for Romney?

 

I just re-joined a group of Wiccan friends on FB. They are mostly from Texas, and most all are very vocally anti Obama. I like these women a lot most of the time, but this confuses the shit out of me.

 

I'm not even trying to be snarky when I ask......can someone explain this to me? I'm really having a disconnect here and frankly, I lose respect for them when I see that. Eventually I will just ask them but right now I don't feel ready.

[meda]

I dont think it's a huge inconsistency. There are republican Muslims, Jews, Buddhists...etc. it seems fairly common that people's political beliefs are not in line with the more aspirational tenets of their faith.

There are also quite racist strains of neo paganism. Certain practitioners of Asatru, for example, although that particular tradition is certainly not all racist.

[Katydid]

Maybe they are all really hardcore fiscal conservatives? But even then, I could see them being more likely to vote for the libertarian candidate than Romney. I get confused by log cabin republicans, as well.

[Buggaboo]

Well, don't get me wrong, there are issues on the left that I find irritation and controlling as well. It just seems like you wouldn't want to vote for someone who essentially wants to limit your rights to worship as you see fit. BUT, then again, I know some people have different priorities. I'm very social minded, so the social issues are what I vote on, while others only vote on fiscal issues.

Thanks for the info too, Meda, I didn't know that. I don't know much about paganism beyond the basics and am not Wiccan myself. I'm not actually anything. I just seem to connect to the Wiccans best for persona reasons. Kinda caught me off guard I guess. ;) I know eventually I will ask them directly, because I like them and I'm genuinely curious to understand their line of thought.

[Alecto]

I can only speak within Asatru, because I've never known anyone who is Wiccan or generic Neo-Pagan and been Republican.

The core of Asatru is the Nine Noble Virtues, and which one of those virtues becomes your "first commandment" tends to strongly influence how you practice the faith.

Within Asatru, there are two distinct denominations, for lack of a better word - Folkish and Universalist. Universalists tend to be the more liberal group, mostly because they believe the religion is open to anyone who feels the call of the gods. Most of the Universalist folks tend to focus on the virtues like hospitality and community, and tend to be very "other" focused.

Folkish folks, in my experience, tend to be very much about honor and self reliance, and see much of the Tea Party line as in line with them since it tries to portray itself as in line with the whole neo-libertarian beliefs. They usually are very big on living off the land, gun rights, ect, and are willing to ignore the rest for those rights. Oddly enough a lot of those folks come from Texas - hence the name "Texatru"

[Buggaboo]

OK, now, thank you Alecto. That gives me a lot of food for thought. I'm also going to have to do some research into Asatru.

I've always been one to go with what I believe in my heart, what rings true for me. The Wiccans are the closest I have come to finding a group who believe similar to what I do, but it's not a close enough fit that I've ever felt I would become one. While I like being a student of religion and I tend to hang on to pieces of this one or that one that felt true for me.....it would be nice to find a home base eventually. So that gives me food for thought on a personal level.

Folkish folks, in my experience, tend to be very much about honor and self reliance, and see much of the Tea Party line as in line with them since it tries to portray itself as in line with the whole neo-libertarian beliefs. They usually are very big on living off the land, gun rights, ect, and are willing to ignore the rest for those rights. Oddly enough a lot of those folks come from Texas - hence the name "Texatru"

And this in particular (above) gives me a better understanding of where my friends might be coming from.......they are very pro 2nd amendment......which is an issue I'm pretty neutral on. There is also a lot of emphasis on self reliance and natural meds, etc.. so who knows.....maybe this is just a Texas brand of paganism that seems foreign to my blue NY brain. ;)

[bea]

There was just a big kerfuffle about this on Twitter among people I was following - a young gay Pagan announced he was a Republican and, unsurprisingly, was promptly dropped by most of the other gay male Pagans. And then he said everyone was bullying him and wrote me a long letter about how abused he was. :roll:

I don't understand it. I think most of the Pagans and magicians I know who are Republican are so for several reasons: they really believe that the government cannot and should not do the job it's doing, they are afraid of the government and want it to be smaller, they grew up in an area that's heavily Republican and have never thought "outside the box." There's also a fair number of ceremonial magicians and folk magic practitioners who are very conservative - hoodoo practitioners, especially, can be very VERY conservative (it's largely a Christian, African-American, Southern tradition).

When I point out that part of the Republican platform seems to include compulsory Christianity, they shrug it off. And almost none of them are social conservatives. It's weird, actually. I practice an admittedly bizarre amalgamation of folk magic, witchcraft, and ceremonial magic, but it's not my religion, so I'm not Pagan - still, these are the folks I hang out with because I do business in that area. I can see Asatru Republicans, but Wiccan Republicans or TradCraft Reconstructionist Pagans would make me raise my eyebrows a bit.

[G G Gunhold]

A year ago or so I stumbled across a neo-nazi website/forum that my mind still can't believe was real (even though I know it probably was). There was definitely a substantial subset of the posters who were pagan (animist? I am not sure if I know the right terms, but their vocabulary was similar to that of pagans I've encountered (except for, you know, the hideous racism)) or else who felt that Christianity was not "native" to the Aryan people, what with its non-white leader and Middle Eastern roots.

It was really incredibly bizarre and unbelievable and disturbing except for people just CAN'T be that stupid. Arguments about whether or not homophobia distracted them from their true calling of hating/killing all non-Aryans.

So perhaps something like that?

[bea]

Sounds like the weird bastard white-power offshoot of Asatru that I've seen before. No matter how great the religion (like Christianity - love everybody, be kind to other people), someone will always find a way to twist it and pervert it and claim they're the only ones doing it "right."

[Kishiria]

I'm Latino and Asatru. Obviously I'm universalist. My husband is Danish-American and I went into Asatru with him.

Our kindred is unaffiliated, but the nice lesbian couple who founded it are Troth/AFA. Most of us are left-libertarian in that we see government as inimical to civil rights.

My joke, because I know it'd send many Asatru into an anti-Semitic tizzy, is that the Troth is Reform Asatru, the Texatru are Conservative Asatru, and the folkish and Odinist Trus are Ultra-Orthodox. The normal Modern Orthodox live in Scandinavia.

The Troth was founded by Diana Paxson, who is unabashedly a liberal Democrat. The people in my kindred don't identify as such. I'm sure some will vote for Obama, but I don't know who. Gary Johnson is popular among many Asatru, and it's legitimate to say that Asatru is paganism for conservatives. There have been a couple of discussions of how Asatru women should dress--fortunately the consensus was that we should dress in whatever fashion would present us in the best light.

[Alecto]

Our kindred is unaffiliated, but the nice lesbian couple who founded it are Troth/AFA.

That's... interesting since the Troth is universalist and AFA is a folkish-bordering-on-racist organization run by McNallen, who is about as credible with his "Folk Soul" theories as fundies are with New Earth Creationism.

The Troth was founded by Diana Paxson, who is unabashedly a liberal Democrat.

Yeah, that's not accurate. Diana didn't become Steerswoman of the Troth until 1999. The Troth was founded by Edred Thorsson and James Chisholm in 1987. Please try again with accurate information. I've been to Trothmoot a few times, and it's always been a huge mixture from gun nuts to crunchy mamas and everything in between.

Asatru is not "Paganism for Conservatives" any more than Christianity is solely the realm of conservatives.

[YPestis]

I can't specifically speak for pagans, but I figure there are people of all faiths that are republicans. We have the Log Cabin Republicans who have until recently been vocally and publicly renounced by their own party presidential candidate. I think Bush II was the first Republican candidate to embrace their support.

There's a diversity of political ideology even among people who share a similar belief structure. Some people are fiscal conservatives, others may be small business people who want to see reduction in gov't, and others may vote for foreign policy reasons. Jews as a group lean very much left, but there's a small group that have switched over the Republican side due to the issue of Israel. These are just some of the reason people may vote for republicans despite social disagreements. Heck, even Mormons, who've long been pillored by the Republican party for being not "real" Christians vote Republican in huge numbers. I also think some people vote Republican despite their social leanings because they are protesting the democratic party.

I consider myself left leaning, but open to the "other side". I typically vote Democrat because I live in a conservative state, and I found Bush II too conservative for me during his tenure. However, I share certain beliefs with moderate Republicans and would be fine if one came into office. Just because I'm childless, asian, a nonChristian and a female doesn't mean I should vote democrat forever. I am am not a stereotype. I choose the candidate which I think will do best for this country. I don't have to agree with every single thing they believe in. They just have to "mostly" good with me on the major issues.

[OkToBeTakei]

I played War games for a long time. The MMORPG type. I played and got to know (as much as you can online) A really nice lady who was Wiccan. Just about everything about her I liked. I tend toward the liberal live and let live type above being miserable watching the world not ascribing to what SHOULD be right but never will.

She got annoyed because..well quite frankly she was shit. It is a cut throat world when you play with the big guns. That's ok...we all to some extent get annoyed when we do not win or feel threatened. Human nature.

I have yet to see any religion that utterly looks at the best thing. You cut your cloth etc. What a shame. I really liked the ideology. I see why you were surprised Buggaboo. :(

[Buggaboo]

I consider myself left leaning, but open to the "other side". I typically vote Democrat because I live in a conservative state, and I found Bush II too conservative for me during his tenure. However, I share certain beliefs with moderate Republicans and would be fine if one came into office. Just because I'm childless, asian, a nonChristian and a female doesn't mean I should vote democrat forever. I am am not a stereotype. I choose the candidate which I think will do best for this country. I don't have to agree with every single thing they believe in. They just have to "mostly" good with me on the major issues.

This is very similar to my political leaning, as well. There are a few key issues that push me into the realm of "very left", and I'm rabid about them, but most other issues I am a moderate lefty on. I also agree that you need to basically choose the candidate you see as being "the lesser of 2 evils". No candidate is perfect for anyone.

But these gals are vehemently anti Obama. Like the stuff you see on you FB and have to scratch your head because it doesn't even make sense to hate anyone that much.

There was just a big kerfuffle about this on Twitter among people I was following - a young gay Pagan announced he was a Republican and, unsurprisingly, was promptly dropped by most of the other gay male Pagans. And then he said everyone was bullying him and wrote me a long letter about how abused he was. :roll:

I don't understand it. I think most of the Pagans and magicians I know who are Republican are so for several reasons: they really believe that the government cannot and should not do the job it's doing, they are afraid of the government and want it to be smaller, they grew up in an area that's heavily Republican and have never thought "outside the box." There's also a fair number of ceremonial magicians and folk magic practitioners who are very conservative - hoodoo practitioners, especially, can be very VERY conservative (it's largely a Christian, African-American, Southern tradition).

When I point out that part of the Republican platform seems to include compulsory Christianity, they shrug it off. And almost none of them are social conservatives. It's weird, actually. I practice an admittedly bizarre amalgamation of folk magic, witchcraft, and ceremonial magic, but it's not my religion, so I'm not Pagan - still, these are the folks I hang out with because I do business in that area. I can see Asatru Republicans, but Wiccan Republicans or TradCraft Reconstructionist Pagans would make me raise my eyebrows a bit.

I have to admit I am equally confused by gay republicans, but I do know and love one. He's an older guy, raised in a republican family, and is just very fiscally conservative. The vibe I got from him, the one time I mentioned it, as that he is ok with his life the way it is, he doesn't feel that either party truly represents him on a personal level, so he just votes with his fiscal ideology.

The part about people shrugging it off, I find a lot of that two. The women I'm referring to never mention the right as being predominately VERY Christian or being anti alternate religion. They don't seem to feel like it's an issue. I guess it's just not a priority, or they feel, like my gay republican friend, that other things take precedence.....where my friend votes fiscally, they seem to be very focused on the 2nd amendment. To me that seems lacking in self respect.....on the other hand perhaps I'm just being a bit of a "special snowflake" to vote on my pet issues and put them at the head of the line ahead of other issues. Maybe they vote based on what they truly believe is best for the entire nation, and put their special interests on the back burner. I mean, if I look at it that way I can understand and even respect it to a degree.

You all have got me thinking....in any case. Thanks for the responses

[bea]

Alecto, I didn't realize Edred Thorsson was one of the founders of the Troth! You learn something new every day.

I just sold "Lords of the Left Hand Path" for a really STUPID amount of money to a collector last week, so Dr. Flowers is on my good side these days. : :lol:

(edited for riffles)

[Alecto]

You know there is also a chance some folks who hate Obama are just bigots.

[Buggaboo]

You know there is also a chance some folks who hate Obama are just bigots.

Yes. That has absolutely crossed my mind. One woman has all of her gay rights stuff (in support of her SISTER, no less) right next to her "Obama is the worst president ever" meme. :roll: I swear I develop an eye twitch when I look at her page. :icon-eek:

[Closed Womb]

My very best friend (that I'm not otherwise married to) is a gay (male) Republican. Socially liberal, fiscally conservative and he prioritizes the fiscal beliefs (probably because he is in his early 30's and does not remember/has not experienced heavy oppression.)

Sometimes people don't fit our assumptions. Personally, I like that he can make up his own mind even when facing derision from his peers.

[Buggaboo]

My very best friend (that I'm not otherwise married to) is a gay (male) Republican. Socially liberal, fiscally conservative and he prioritizes the fiscal beliefs (probably because he is in his early 30's and does not remember/has not experienced heavy oppression.)

Sometimes people don't fit our assumptions. Personally, I like that he can make up his own mind even when facing derision from his peers.

Nah, I get that. I guess I'm just trying to understand them so I can handle it better, be tolerant and not fly off the handle when I see that stuff.....if that makes sense. This thread has really helped me a lot with that.

[YPestis]

Oh yeah, also second amendment people may prioritize that issue over any other social issues. You could have a gay guy who loves his guns and votes Republicans for that reason. Also, people only have two choices. For many, they are dissatisfied with both parties so they decide to vote for the candidate that best fits their views in their order of importance. There are Mormon liberals, conservative gays, black Republicans etc. Many may also vote unusually because they live in a very left or right leaning area. I had a friend who surprised me when I stated I was a Republican. However, he told me he was from the northeast, so to be republican there was like being a liberal where we were at. We agree on most policies and he is even more liberal than me on some, and I always thought I was left of center!

[bea]

I guess I just have a really hard time imagining voting for a party that wants your civil rights taken away, wants YOU out of the country, wants to prevent you from marrying, having children, holding down a job, having any basic rights at all that the rest of us enjoy.

I mean, fiscally conservative, I get that. But voting against your own civil rights - I don't think you could convince me to do that. Ever. I don't vote for people who want to restrict my reproductive freedom, for example. It's mine. The government isn't in charge of it. I don't care what party you're with; civil rights are my hill to die on, so to speak. The idea that someone would just sort of brush that aside - their own civil rights - to focus on the national debt is so alien to me that someone who does it seems like they're from Mars.

[NjoyingNsanity]

As a pagan I can honestly say we really are a bunch of very varied individuals, we kind of have to have "I don't mind being seen as weird" in our personality make-up to have the balls to choose what is seen as an alternate religion. When you've had to explain for the 999th time this week that no you're not a devil-worshipper, and no it's really not necessary for people to hide their small children and pets from you, you develope a pretty thick hide so having weird political views really becomes something you don't really expect people to notice about you. That being said I know some branches of Asatru that can be very conservative they're the ones I've given the pet name asshatruers. I wish I could find it again, but I once stumbled across a Asatru blog about marriage and the male and female rolls within marriage that I swear could have been written by anyone of the extreme fundies we snark on here, so no pagan doesn't always mean liberal.

[Buggaboo]

I guess I just have a really hard time imagining voting for a party that wants your civil rights taken away, wants YOU out of the country, wants to prevent you from marrying, having children, holding down a job, having any basic rights at all that the rest of us enjoy.

I mean, fiscally conservative, I get that. But voting against your own civil rights - I don't think you could convince me to do that. Ever. I don't vote for people who want to restrict my reproductive freedom, for example. It's mine. The government isn't in charge of it. I don't care what party you're with; civil rights are my hill to die on, so to speak. The idea that someone would just sort of brush that aside - their own civil rights - to focus on the national debt is so alien to me that someone who does it seems like they're from Mars.

This is why I questioned it, as well. I am just like you when it comes to this. I vote on civil rights and so it's hard for me to imagine putting anything else first.

I get that all people are diverse and individual, I'm not trying to lump any group in a category of my expectations, the problem I have is with the issues Bea outlined.....it's hard for me to understand voting against your own civil rights.

[ElphabaGalinda]

This is why I questioned it, as well. I am just like you when it comes to this. I vote on civil rights and so it's hard for me to imagine putting anything else first.

I get that all people are diverse and individual, I'm not trying to lump any group in a category of my expectations, the problem I have is with the issues Bea outlined.....it's hard for me to understand voting against your own civil rights.

This is how I feel about it too. I could never vote for someone who wanted to take away my civil rights and many Republicans out there today want just that. There are other things that are important to me, of course, just like there's more than one part of my identity. But someone who wants it to be illegal for me to have children would never get my vote, no matter what they stood for. Then again, we don't have the equivalent of the insanity that is the current Republican party in the US, so I've never had to make that choice. So I still don't get it.