Hairy Sikh lady on Reddit

[fundifugee]

Wow, a post on FJ where I felt actually spiritually uplifted instead of generally annoyed and angry about religion. Thanks to the OP and to the un-victim of this attempted snark for showing beauty in the face of an attack and changing the world alittle because of it.

I have on occasion quit shaving for long periods of time. I must say, a gentle summer breeze blowing calf hair is a lovely sensation.

I am continually shocked how often women apologize to me about their bodies, and it is mostly about body hair. Go to do a physical examination, and she apologizes for not having shaved her legs beforehand. Some women even go get waxed or shave for pap smears FFS. It is shocking. I mean, I am a doctor, I know women have hair, and the woman is not there to turn me on or be attractive to me. I cannot even count the number of times I've had to do an emergency pelvic exam on a woman who is in pain or bleeding heavily and they apologize for not having shaved. I have even had women in labour who apologized for not shaving since they couldn't see their pubic area anymore thanks to the pregnant belly. Shocking, and incredibly revealing how ingrained and enforced this societal women-must-be-beautiful-in-a-certain-way thing must be.

[luckystone]

This isn't a woman who says "I'm not going to shave because I don't feel like it. It's my own personal choice." She's doing it to conform to the standards of how she interprets what the doctrine of her religion is dictating to her. How is that any different from Zsu or the Maxwells?

True. Though other Sikh women, I believe, do remove some body hair (but not head hair) so maybe it's her own interpretation at least.

I am continually shocked how often women apologize to me about their bodies, and it is mostly about body hair. Go to do a physical examination, and she apologizes for not having shaved her legs beforehand. Some women even go get waxed or shave for pap smears FFS. It is shocking. I mean, I am a doctor, I know women have hair, and the woman is not there to turn me on or be attractive to me. I cannot even count the number of times I've had to do an emergency pelvic exam on a woman who is in pain or bleeding heavily and they apologize for not having shaved. I have even had women in labour who apologized for not shaving since they couldn't see their pubic area anymore thanks to the pregnant belly. Shocking, and incredibly revealing how ingrained and enforced this societal women-must-be-beautiful-in-a-certain-way thing must be.

If it makes you feel better, I sometimes say a token sorry to doctors (about legs, never my pubic area) but I don't mean it :lol: :lol:

[MonkeyMomma]

Michelle Duggar is called mullet on here. Come on, guys. Personal appearance, grooming regimen, weight, etc are all snarked on here. Many on here have offered their opinions on fundie appearances. What's the difference between the appearances of the fundies snarked on here and this woman?

I concede on your general point, but I would offer this thought - Ms. Kaur doesn't seem to be the type to go after my rights to bodily integrity, or the type to attack the freedom of those I care about to marry and create a family as they see fit. I also am guessing that she doesn't desire to make her interpretation of her religion the law of the land (extrapolating from her t-shirt in the picture, which she identified as from an interfaith student event) or prevent women from receiving and education or participating in society (because she attends a state school).

Also, when I snark on the Botkins' duckface, Michelle and J'slaves crunchy perms, etc, I'm snarking on the fact that they are embracing a caricature of femininity and bowing to the patriarchy. Ms. Kaur reminds me more of the nuns I know - not particularly fashion forward, but that's because she has greater interests than attracting and ultimately submitting to a male authority figure.

Not very eloquent, but I tried!

[Witsec7]

I must say, a gentle summer breeze blowing calf hair is a lovely sensation.

One of the sensuous delights of not shaving. :D

[theologygeek]

I concede on your general point, but I would offer this thought - Ms. Kaur doesn't seem to be the type to go after my rights to bodily integrity, or the type to attack the freedom of those I care about to marry and create a family as they see fit. I also am guessing that she doesn't desire to make her interpretation of her religion the law of the land (extrapolating from her t-shirt in the picture, which she identified as from an interfaith student event) or prevent women from receiving and education or participating in society (because she attends a state school).

Also, when I snark on the Botkins' duckface, Michelle and J'slaves crunchy perms, etc, I'm snarking on the fact that they are embracing a caricature of femininity and bowing to the patriarchy. Ms. Kaur reminds me more of the nuns I know - not particularly fashion forward, but that's because she has greater interests than attracting and ultimately submitting to a male authority figure.

Not very eloquent, but I tried!

I don't know what this woman feels deep inside because I don't know her. She could have shrugged off the mocking but deep inside she hated the way she looked. It just pisses me off that in this day and age there are women who feel that they must look or dress a certain way to please their god, their man, or whomever, when in fact it's not what they really want. Ten bucks says their god doesn't care how they look. It reminds me of the Muslim woman at the beach who was clutching onto a tree for dear life because she felt like she was going to faint. It was hot as all hell that day and she was covered in black from head to toe while her husband and sons played in the water. She wouldn't let me get her something to drink at the food stand. She wouldn't let me get the beach's first aid people. She wouldn't let me get her husband out of the water because she said they were having fun. I asked her why on earth she would go to the beach dressed like that when it was close to 100 degrees outside. She said because her husband said they were going to the beach. What a selfish asshole to put his wife through that. I asked her if she wanted to go to the beach and she said no. But the kicker. I asked her if she wanted to be dressed like that at the beach and she said "I have no choice." I left because I was about to lose it. There are women in this day and age who feel that they have no choice. That's very sad.

[Minerva]

Body hair is a strange thing. I'm hairy everywhere from the shoulders down, like way hairier than you'd think was possible for a person with ovaries to be. (It was therefore a big decision to stop shaving my legs and armpits, because they grow a ton of hair!) But then I only get minimal facial hair. Meanwhile, I know dainty blonde cis women with only peachfuzz on their arms and whatnot who can grow beards. Blonde beards, but still.

It threw me for a loop, seeing the woman's beard and moustache, but now that I think about it I knew some women who could totally grow that if they stopped waxing.

[JesusFightClub]

Theologygeek, I see where you're coming from on this one, but I think Ms Kaur may be the opposite of the Muslim lady. She would prefer not to shave and - coincidence! - God likes that ;)

I think she is very nice looking and I appreciated her gracious response. I had a Muslim pal similarly troubled with hair issues, she did shave and I wondered if it was a racial thing to have such heavy growth. I thought my friend was lovely with or without hair, but like Sunnichick says, she felt unclean - it wasn't about getting male attention, it was about being clean and therefore correct in God's eyes.

[Sunnichick31]

Theologygeek, I see where you're coming from on this one, but I think Ms Kaur may be the opposite of the Muslim lady. She would prefer not to shave and - coincidence! - God likes that ;)

I think she is very nice looking and I appreciated her gracious response. I had a Muslim pal similarly troubled with hair issues, she did shave and I wondered if it was a racial thing to have such heavy growth. I thought my friend was lovely with or without hair, but like Sunnichick says, she felt unclean - it wasn't about getting male attention, it was about being clean and therefore correct in God's eyes.

If you mean the facial hair, that's not about cleanliness. There is a hadith where Aisha (one of the wives of Mohammad pbuh) said to remove what is harmful. THat's usually interpretted as giving permission to remove things like unibrows, excess facial hair (for women only. it's better for men to keep their beards) and thigns like that. Hair removal for hygenic purposes is the armpit hair and pubic hair cause it might end up smelling bad.

Any time I think of this girl I am pretty proud of her. It's gotta be hard going against society's standards, and i really admire her for sticking to her convictions and also for being so eloquent when trying to teach someone else about them. I really, REALLY admire her eloquence, and hope that i can be like her someday! :pray:

[miffy]

My belly button pretty much has a beard(which I wax off), but I have blonde leg hair & am extra white. Hair removal is frustrating, either it doesn't last long or it hurts. I wish I wasn't so brainwashed about it.

The said one of my good friends is a Sikh. She had an arranged marriage, is vegetarian, celebrates sikh AND hindu holy days/fasts. So I guess that makes sort of a fundie. But she trims her hair, waxes, husband doesn't have a beard or turban.

[JesusFightClub]

If you mean the facial hair, that's not about cleanliness. There is a hadith where Aisha (one of the wives of Mohammad pbuh) said to remove what is harmful. THat's usually interpretted as giving permission to remove things like unibrows, excess facial hair (for women only. it's better for men to keep their beards) and thigns like that. Hair removal for hygenic purposes is the armpit hair and pubic hair cause it might end up smelling bad.

Any time I think of this girl I am pretty proud of her. It's gotta be hard going against society's standards, and i really admire her for sticking to her convictions and also for being so eloquent when trying to teach someone else about them. I really, REALLY admire her eloquence, and hope that i can be like her someday! :pray:

Sunnichick, obv I didn't see her pubes ;) but she took away hairs on her arms and said it was wrong to keep them. She also removed hair on her legs and armpits. She told me she did so on her face as well because people could see her sweating?

You are very eloquent and write very well already! i would not worry about that if I was you!

[Shoobydoo]

I really admire her presence of mind. I know I would never react that well to finding myself ridiculed on the internet- especially for something beyond my control. At least not without taking a LONG time to calm down first.

[2xx1xy1JD]

I don't know what this woman feels deep inside because I don't know her. She could have shrugged off the mocking but deep inside she hated the way she looked. It just pisses me off that in this day and age there are women who feel that they must look or dress a certain way to please their god, their man, or whomever, when in fact it's not what they really want. Ten bucks says their god doesn't care how they look. It reminds me of the Muslim woman at the beach who was clutching onto a tree for dear life because she felt like she was going to faint. It was hot as all hell that day and she was covered in black from head to toe while her husband and sons played in the water. She wouldn't let me get her something to drink at the food stand. She wouldn't let me get the beach's first aid people. She wouldn't let me get her husband out of the water because she said they were having fun. I asked her why on earth she would go to the beach dressed like that when it was close to 100 degrees outside. She said because her husband said they were going to the beach. What a selfish asshole to put his wife through that. I asked her if she wanted to go to the beach and she said no. But the kicker. I asked her if she wanted to be dressed like that at the beach and she said "I have no choice." I left because I was about to lose it. There are women in this day and age who feel that they have no choice. That's very sad.

This goes back to the religious vs. fundie definition.

This young woman was just going about her daily life when someone took a picture of her and posted it in order to make fun of her for not conforming to current Western norms of female beauty.

She was not engaged in a campaign to shame Sikhs (or anyone else) who cut hair or shave. She's not protesting in front of hair salons and barber shops. [scary fundie Sikhs do exist, but we have absolutely no indication that she falls into this category.]

She's not saying that any husband or family member coerced her into keeping the facial hair. The only discomfort involved would be the attitude of people who would try to impose THEIR standards of beauty on her. Waxing, plucking, bleaching, threading, shaving, laser - all of these can involve some pain, some slight health risks and some time and expense, just to meet some external appearance standard. Can you find an old copy of The Beauty Myth?

Her statement of her beliefs reminded me of Lady Gaga singing "G-d makes no mistakes. I'm on the right track, baby, I was born this way".

[theologygeek]

My responses are bolded.

This goes back to the religious vs. fundie definition.

This young woman was just going about her daily life when someone took a picture of her and posted it in order to make fun of her for not conforming to current Western norms of female beauty.

That same thing has been done on this board.

She's not saying that any husband or family member coerced her into keeping the facial hair.

She's saying her god is making her do it, which is what submission to God is. That is no different from fundies who wear dresses and keep their hair long because they think the bible is telling them to. They are doing it to submit to God.

The only discomfort involved would be the attitude of people who would try to impose THEIR standards of beauty on her.

That's also done here all the time. Duggar girls and their crunchy hair, Josh and Anna are fat, Mullet, Zsu needs a makeover because she looks old, etc

Her statement of her beliefs reminded me of Lady Gaga singing "G-d makes no mistakes. I'm on the right track, baby, I was born this way".

Your analogy is flawed because this woman came right out and said her reason for not shaving is because she is submitting to her god. It is no different from the Christian fundies discussed here. There is a difference between saying "I don't shave because I was born this way" and "I don't shave because my god said I can't." If you are going to use the lyrics of Lady Gaga's song, then it is comparable to a gay man saying "I am gay, but I don't have sex with a man because God said I can't and I am submitting to him." That is not what "Born This Way" means. It's actually the opposite of what Lady Gaga was conveying.

[theologygeek]

Theologygeek, I see where you're coming from on this one, but I think Ms Kaur may be the opposite of the Muslim lady. She would prefer not to shave and - coincidence! - God likes that ;)

I am not so sure about that. Any time someone says they look the way they do because their god says they have to sets off a red flag. I want to shake these people and tell them that their god doesn't care how they look. This woman can't shave even if she wanted to, so she might as well learn to like it.

[Koala]

My responses are bolded.

Your analogy is flawed because this woman came right out and said her reason for not shaving is because she is submitting to her god. It is no different from the Christian fundies discussed here. There is a difference between saying "I don't shave because I was born this way" and "I don't shave because my god said I can't." If you are going to use the lyrics of Lady Gaga's song, then it is comparable to a gay man saying "I am gay, but I don't have sex with a man because God said I can't and I am submitting to him." That is not what "Born This Way" means. It's actually the opposite of what Lady Gaga was conveying.

After pondering it for a while, I think I'll have to agree with theologygeek on this one.

I truly admire this woman for her response to these people (she was far kinder than I would have been), but I can't help but wonder if she would feel free to shave/wax if she wanted to.

I will say upfront that my preference is heavy on the shaving, waxing, tweezing side of things. I am much more comfortable that. But someone else? Whatever floats their boat.

[CoatRack]

I don't know Balpreet because I did Interfaith Youth Core (I'm a Unitarian Universalist) before her time but... really, you don't do IFYC if you have any interest, at all, in proselytizing or converting. And you don't do it if you're not really open minded to other folks religions and identities. It's interesting in some ways because we tend to be some of the "more strict" withIN our own traditions in some ways (we go to a place of worship weekly or multiple times a week, we volunteer, we're basically really really involved) but in may other ways we tend to be far more liberal and "outside the box" if you're from a more conservative faith. All of that AND you're actually not allowed to try to convert fellow IFYC folks OR people you meet while doing IFYC work. And considering she's wearing a IFYC shirt IN THE PICTURE I have a feeling that she's just as in love with them as I was.

When you're spending your time with young people of faith who are just as in love with their faith as you are with your faith it really grounds you in who you are while at the same time convincing you that there are many, many paths. So unless Balpreet is the exception to the rule (which based on her response I doubt) I don't think anyone needs to be worried she's been sheltered or doesn't know she has other options.

(back to not posting now. Posting is SCARY!)

[theologygeek]

True. Though other Sikh women, I believe, do remove some body hair (but not head hair) so maybe it's her own interpretation at least.

I don't think it's her own interpretation. Cutting hair is forbidden. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prohibitions_in_Sikhism The ones who are doing it are irritating the spiritual leaders. http://www.nytimes.com/2007/03/29/world ... .html?_r=0 What's the difference between the young man in the NY Times article and the Reddit woman? He doesn't feel that he has to adhere to this part of his faith's doctrine. She feels she "must" do it. "and, must keep it intact as a submission to the divine will." Sarah Maxwell, the Duggars, Zsu, etc all also feel that they must. When you feel that you must look a certain way because your god wants you to, there's a problem.

[MonkeyMomma]

She's saying her god is making her do it, which is what submission to God is. That is no different from fundies who wear dresses and keep their hair long because they think the bible is telling them to. They are doing it to submit to God.

This may be nitpicking, but I think this may be where my thoughts diverge. Does she choose to submit to God in this way, or is she forced? You say her submission is, by definition, forced; but you also said, we don't know exactly how her thought process works. Perhaps it is her choice to express her religious faith in this way by, as she sees it, submitting to her God. I go back to my nun analogy - they are all grown women. Nothing is forcing them to stay celibate, stay with their order, etc. They choose to submit to (as they see it) God's will for their lives in order to be of service to others.

Perhaps I'm more inclined to defend Ms. Kaur's choice because it feels more like her choice for her life, without interest in what my choices are for my life. Many of the fundies we snark on here want to turn back the clock on the whole country. People start messing with my life, they open themselves up for my critique.

Also, I don't really know enough about Sikhism to comment fully on the culture and community that may have led Ms. Kaur to make the choices she does. However, I DO feel well versed enough in Christianity to snark away.

Again, less than the eloquent thought I hoped to post. I'm taking a break from studying an exam. And this isn't an attack, I hope that comes through - just kicking ideas around in hopes you'll kick some back to me.

ETA: so, I just had this thought - I think I'm less inclined to snark on, say, Bhalpeet, because her choices, while in the context of submission to God, are not in response to the male gaze. Why do the fundies we snark dress "modestly" or why do certain Islamist countries enforced dress codes for women? It has less to do with God, and more to do with male power and owning/enforcing/comtrolling women's (perceived) sexuality. For instance: PP, et al, on "male" dress and "female" dress, as if it's divinely enforced. What Bhalpeet was wearing (essentially sweat, t-shirt, and turban) could be worn by any Sikh of either gender.

[theologygeek]

After pondering it for a while, I think I'll have to agree with theologygeek on this one.

I truly admire this woman for her response to these people (she was far kinder than I would have been), but I can't help but wonder if she would feel free to shave/wax if she wanted to.

I will say upfront that my preference is heavy on the shaving, waxing, tweezing side of things. I am much more comfortable that. But someone else? Whatever floats their boat.

The part I bolded is the same concern I have. When she said she "must," I said "uhoh."

[theologygeek]

This may be nitpicking, but I think this may be where my thoughts diverge. Does she choose to submit to God in this way, or is she forced? You say her submission is, by definition, forced; but you also said, we don't know exactly how her thought process works.

I don't know. Must to me means forced. Forced and learned to like it, maybe? I really don't know what she feels deep inside. I just wish that women of all faiths would realize that if their god cares about the way they look, then he's not a god they should be worshiping. Also if anyone puts pressure on them to look a certain way, whether it's a spouse or a family member, then they need to put those people out of their lives. There is already enough pressure in this world to look a certain way, whether it's from the media, church, mosque, or synagogue. It's not right.

[valsa]

Even if she's not freely choosing to not cut her hair, is she freely choosing the religion that requires her to not cut her hair?

As long as she can say "I know that this religion will require me to not cut my hair, even if I may want to, and I choose to practice this religion anyway", I'm fine with it.

I have hair issues (seriously, if I went a week without shaving my face I'd have a serious douchebag beard with complimentary douchebag sideburns) and I hate to shave, so I don't think it should be automatically assumed she's hairy against her will.

[2xx1xy1JD]

I am not so sure about that. Any time someone says they look the way they do because their god says they have to sets off a red flag. I want to shake these people and tell them that their god doesn't care how they look. This woman can't shave even if she wanted to, so she might as well learn to like it.

I know it probably a figure of speech, but go back and reread the bolded part.

She's not telling others how to live their lives, but you disagree with her thoughts and beliefs so you are fantasizing about using physical coercion to get her to think differently. Who's the fanatic or fundie here?

Guess what? She doesn't have to justify her beliefs to you or anyone else. She's an adult, she's obviously intelligent and able to express herself, and she's entitled to her thoughts, views, opinions, beliefs and control over what she does with her own body. The fact that someone doesn't think the way that you do doesn't have to set off a "red flag", because it's not up to you. You don't get to shove YOUR views down her throat.

[Sobriquet]

Even if she's not freely choosing to not cut her hair, is she freely choosing the religion that requires her to not cut her hair?

As long as she can say "I know that this religion will require me to not cut my hair, even if I may want to, and I choose to practice this religion anyway", I'm fine with it.

This. Imposing significant* (but reasonable) limits/restrictions on yourself is a perfectly valid choice, and I think it's important to acknowledge and support the right of everyone to do it. Obviously, making a choice like that for yourself but then forcing those restrictions on someone else - like, say, children - is just plain wrong, especially if you leave the other person with no options or recourse. However, my impression is that Balpreet is making this choice for herself.

*I use significant here not because hair is OMG IMPORTANT!! but because, like Sunnchick said, it can take a lot of courage to put yourself outside of the societally-prescribed standard of beauty.

[2xx1xy1JD]

My responses are bolded.

Your analogy is flawed because this woman came right out and said her reason for not shaving is because she is submitting to her god. It is no different from the Christian fundies discussed here. There is a difference between saying "I don't shave because I was born this way" and "I don't shave because my god said I can't." If you are going to use the lyrics of Lady Gaga's song, then it is comparable to a gay man saying "I am gay, but I don't have sex with a man because God said I can't and I am submitting to him." That is not what "Born This Way" means. It's actually the opposite of what Lady Gaga was conveying.

Let's look of some of what she actually posted:

However, I'm not embarrased or even humiliated by the attention [negative and positve] that this picture is getting because, it's who I am. Yes, I'm a baptized Sikh woman with facial hair. Yes, I realize that my gender is often confused and I look different than most women. However, baptized Sikhs believe in the sacredness of this body - it is a gift that has been given to us by the Divine Being [which is genderless, actually] and, must keep it intact as a submission to the divine will. Just as a child doesn't reject the gift of his/her parents, Sikhs do not reject the body that has been given to us. By crying 'mine, mine' and changing this body-tool, we are essentially living in ego and creating a seperateness between ourselves and the divinity within us. By transcending societal views of beauty, I believe that I can focus more on my actions.

1. She's got a remarkable sense of self and self-worth, right in the first line.

2. Being a baptized Sikh is part of her identity and sense of self.

3. Her concept of the Divine Being isn't necessarily the same as your concept of G-d. It differs considerably from Christian theology. There's not a distinctly male father-son-holy spirit trinity, nor is there the notion of mandatory belief in god appearing in the form of a human being. The Divine Being in Sikh theology is more of a genderless, formless, eternal concept, sort of an Ultimate Power Behind the Universe or Ultimate Truth, as opposed to Angry Sky Fairy Dude.

4. Similarly, her concept of religious requirements and the reasons behind them may be very different from yours. From what I've read about Sikhism, it is NOT about blind obedience to "thou shalt do X or go to hell".

5. I'm not seeing a big separation between her own preferences and the requirements of her religion. I reading this as "I truly believe that the Ultimate Truth/Wisdom Behind the Universe made me a certain way on purpose, and I'm therefore perfectly fine with who I am - hair and all - even if society views of beauty are different".

[theologygeek]

Guess what? She doesn't have to justify her beliefs to you or anyone else. She's an adult, she's obviously intelligent and able to express herself, and she's entitled to her thoughts, views, opinions, beliefs and control over what she does with her own body. The fact that someone doesn't think the way that you do doesn't have to set off a "red flag", because it's not up to you. You don't get to shove YOUR views down her throat.

You're right. The name of this site should be changed to "It's None Of Our Business, Jinger." Every person here who has snarked on someone is imposing their beliefs on them.