New York is Awesome and Anti-Choicers are Delusional

[rock_girl]

It is no one's business if I have children or not. You don't need children or be Fundie to understand something is bad. I can't double quote on my phone but when does being against certain things make you Fundie? I don't drink (a lot) so that makes me Fundie? As teens we dont make the best choices. I am against medicating kids for a good reason. I have seen too many ppl who succumbed to their habits including an uncle. They will grow up to think medication solves everything. If a kid cant go to the parents something is wrong. I am nowhere near Fundie. I believe in responsibility. Yea my parents were stricter than most but I still knew about the world and what was good and bad. It just seems parents are lost these days about the birds and the bees. There must be better ways than medicine.

And since when do you need sex or a partner to be empowered?

To be fair, if used as directed, contraception and emergency contraception does solve that pesky pregnant with no options problem.

[Guest Anonymous]

It is no one's business if I have children or not. You don't need children or be Fundie to understand something is bad. I can't double quote on my phone but when does being against certain things make you Fundie? I don't drink (a lot) so that makes me Fundie? As teens we dont make the best choices. I am against medicating kids for a good reason. I have seen too many ppl who succumbed to their habits including an uncle. They will grow up to think medication solves everything. If a kid cant go to the parents something is wrong. I am nowhere near Fundie. I believe in responsibility. Yea my parents were stricter than most but I still knew about the world and what was good and bad. It just seems parents are lost these days about the birds and the bees. There must be better ways than medicine.

And since when do you need sex or a partner to be empowered?

Would you withhold medicine or make it difficult to get?

[samurai_sarah]

It is no one's business if I have children or not. You don't need children or be Fundie to understand something is bad. I can't double quote on my phone but when does being against certain things make you Fundie? I don't drink (a lot) so that makes me Fundie? As teens we dont make the best choices. I am against medicating kids for a good reason. I have seen too many ppl who succumbed to their habits including an uncle. They will grow up to think medication solves everything. If a kid cant go to the parents something is wrong. I am nowhere near Fundie. I believe in responsibility. Yea my parents were stricter than most but I still knew about the world and what was good and bad. It just seems parents are lost these days about the birds and the bees. There must be better ways than medicine.

And since when do you need sex or a partner to be empowered?

Still waiting on an answer as to why it is better to pander to the religious right than providing teens with the means to be safe.

[Witsec7]

It is no one's business if I have children or not. You don't need children or be Fundie to understand something is bad. I can't double quote on my phone but when does being against certain things make you Fundie? I don't drink (a lot) so that makes me Fundie? As teens we dont make the best choices. I am against medicating kids for a good reason. I have seen too many ppl who succumbed to their habits including an uncle. They will grow up to think medication solves everything. If a kid cant go to the parents something is wrong. I am nowhere near Fundie. I believe in responsibility. Yea my parents were stricter than most but I still knew about the world and what was good and bad. It just seems parents are lost these days about the birds and the bees. There must be better ways than medicine.

And since when do you need sex or a partner to be empowered?

I asked if you had children so that I could understand your perspective and to find out if you had any experience in this area. I'm tending to think that your interests really lie in demonizing folks who don't want to shelter their kids 24/7 and demonizing some of us for practicing parenting techniques that successfully limit teen pregnancy

and STDs.

You're of course willing to talk about buying kids dildos (I never did, hands were free) but you can't put the proverbial rubber to the road. You are tossing quite a few straw men out and frankly that's not unexpected. Time after time on this forum, and others I see folks casting straw men about because they cannot intellectually address the issues at hand.

BTW sexual reproduction and human biology are not the 'birds and the bees', simply because you grasp that archaic term is telling in itself.

And please don't lie or misrepresent what I post. I never said word one about needing a partner or sex to be 'empowered' , whatever the fuck that means. Right now you are pulling some incoherent sentences together and frankly there is no logic or sense behind them.

[mockingbird]

I don't see the problem. You can have your child opt-out of the program if you want. In my state, Plan B is considered OTC unless you are underage (I think it's 17 in this case) and I am pretty sure if you were underage you could go to a PP clinic and get a prescription without needing your parent's permission. So I don't really see how it's that different from any other OTC medication. (My high school also had an opt-in program for any and all OTC drugs including cough drops. :lol: ) Also, I think it is possible/legal to get a prescription for birth control without a parent's permission so again having it at school doesn't really change much. I don't know, personally I think it is a little better at least to know that she could be getting these medications and has a comfortable environment to do so vs. having absolutely no clue and having her think she needs to sneak around.

And regarding having the schools notify parents... actually surprise teens do have some legal reproductive rights already! :dance: In my state at least, we also have laws in place that prevent a doctor sharing certain medical information with parents that a minor above a certain age (15?) gives them in confidence (with exceptions for emergencies like threatening suicide) and this includes sexual activity. I'm not sure if NYC has a similar law in place but I would guess they do. Something to think about.

As far as side effects, I don't think that is such a significant issue for the general population that it should be an argument not to allow the program. I think it could be a reason to opt out in individual cases, like if you knew your daughter was really sensitive to hormones so you wouldn't let her get hormonal birth control from the school. But I would hope that would be followed up by helping her to find an alternative method of birth control. Also, it's not like these medications are being given out blindly, the article says that a girl who wants Plan B has to meet with a nurse and the prescription has to be ok'd by a doctor, and a girl who wants birth control has to meet with a doctor.

eta clarity/word order

[Arete]

No joke, I'm sure roddma is right and the Plan B program is going to throw the religious right more ammunition. I don't care. Sacrificing teen health, safety, and futures on the altar of just getting along is not the answer.

[wtfrenchtoast]

First, I just want to say I wish I had parents like emmiedahl and DD. I don't tell my parents ANYTHING about my sex life. At all. They don't even know I've kissed anyone, let alone had sex. Part of it is because I'm a private person, but part of it is also because I grew up in a sex negative environment. My mom is fairly religious and I remember her pushing my sister to wait until marriage when she had her first boyfriend. I also remember my dad yelling at my sister "Don't get pregnant!" when she went out with him once. My grandma freaked the fuck out when my sister said she wanted birth control at 17 or 18. So growing up and watching my sister deal with all this? Yeah, no way in HELL was I telling my dad or my grandma anything. My best friend gave me my first birth control pills before starting college. I went to the health center at school, got a prescription for the same kind, and I use my mom's insurance to pay for it. She doesn't know a thing. My dad doesn't know I've been taking BC for over almost two years now. I had to take plan B during the summer once. Not a word to my family. Because they made me feel like it's something to be ashamed of and like I have to hide the fact that yes, I have a healthy sexuality.

Off my soapbox now. New York is awesome for this.

[B5SnowDog]

Me. Though I waited until it was legal to drink where I live (19 is legal drinking age here, and my first full drink was on my 19th birthday), because the idea of doing anything illegal still freaked me out :D I can't imagine waiting until 21, it seems so long especially when you're in college. And I had all the knowledge of sex and contraceptives, and could access them easily. Guess that didn't make me magically want to have sex younger, just like someone not know that or not having that access won't magically want to delay sex.

ETA I didn't delay sex because of my age, it was due to lack of opportunity, and no serious relationship, which is my personal comfort level.

I was in my early 20s. I was a late bloomer and wasn't really interested in dating or sex until I was 18 or so.

[formergothardite]

Uh, raise your hand if you waited until you were legally an adult to have sex (18) or drink (21 - in the US)?

Me? *chirp, chirp*

Me. But in my defense I wasn't allowed to date or be alone around boys until I was over 18 and then I wasn't exactly the most popular person. I was rather awkward with no sense of fashion so I didn't get tons of date offers. :oops:

[Buggaboo]

I failed the freeking test. I did not read for comprehension...sigh. Nope I didn't wait for any of it. I'm not the least bit sorry about not waiting either.

I failed too. Badly, often and early.

[Buggaboo]

No joke, I'm sure roddma is right and the Plan B program is going to throw the religious right more ammunition. I don't care. Sacrificing teen health, safety, and futures on the altar of just getting along is not the answer.

QFT

Didn't Roddma ask the question a few pages back about putting kids' health ahead of fundie bashing?

See, the thing is, we might be fundie bashing (ok ok that's pretty much the whole point) but we're not trying to control anyone's life the in the process. We're not lobbying for our government officials to go Pro Free Jinger or bust. We're not pouring our funds into Free Jinger backed politicians. We're kvetching. So technically, we're not putting fundie bashing ahead of anything.

Fundies, on the other hand, are attempting to take over the government in a very real way. They would put dogma and their own personal agendas ahead of teen health and safety EVERY DAMN TIME.

So who is putting ideas ahead of the health and safety of children, really?

As for giving them fuel, really at this point, all I have to say about the religious right is they are dangerous, delusional and need to be stopped. But I'm not willing to change my life to stop them, that is not called giving them ammunition, that is called caving.

ETA a QFT....er.....ASAP!

[sparkles]

Uh, raise your hand if you waited until you were legally an adult to have sex (18) or drink (21 - in the US)?

Me? *chirp, chirp*

Raises hand. I was 24 when I had sex for the first time (married the guy). I just wasn't terribly caught up in dating although I had a lot of guy friends. I'd also been through a lot of angst with girlfriends who felt they had sex before they were really ready (2 became pregnant and for some reason I was the go-to gal for support when they had abortions) so I decided to wait until it felt right for me. I was, however, prepared for the occasion and had been using birth control since I was 18 which my parents knew about (in 1972). I've never regretted waiting, nor have I ever judged anyone who didn't. When my daughter (now 22) and I discussed sex, I did counsel her never to let her virginity to become The Beast, either a prize to be won or a burden to be shed, and certainly not to allow it to become a state of mind (which I would suspect is the case with many, many fundie women who may be incapable of shedding their virginity, no matter how many times they have sex, for procreation of course) rather than a state of body, just to wait until the situation felt right for her. I also took her for birth control. She actually called me the morning after she had sex for the first time to tell me about it. I had three questions: 1. Did she make sure he used a condom (I knew the answer was yes, but I'm still a mom...) 2. did she have any regrets and 3. did she enjoy it. I got satisfactory answers on all accounts and that was the end of it--job well done.

I've never liked the taste of alcohol and don't think I've had a full drink in my entire life, even though the drinking age was 18 when I turned legal. Just not my thing.

[Buggaboo]

When my daughter (now 22) and I discussed sex, I did counsel her never to let her virginity to become The Beast, either a prize to be won or a burden to be shed, and certainly not to allow it to become a state of mind (which I would suspect is the case with many, many fundie women who may be incapable of shedding their virginity, no matter how many times they have sex, for procreation of course) rather than a state of body, just to wait until the situation felt right for her. I also took her for birth control. She actually called me the morning after she had sex for the first time to tell me about it. I had three questions: 1. Did she make sure he used a condom (I knew the answer was yes, but I'm still a mom...) 2. did she have any regrets and 3. did she enjoy it. I got satisfactory answers on all accounts and that was the end of it--job well done.

:clap: :clap: :clap:

[Buggaboo]

:whistle:

[ElphabaGalinda]

:whistle:

:lol: love that. I think those of us who support the program are thinking of the children more by you know wanting them to be safe and protected. Which is funny, because the people who say that are thinking of their own comfort level/ideology, not the children.

[Witsec7]

:whistle:

I think I peed a drop.

Poor rodma all us libruls fueling the fires of the tighty righties. We should just be keeping our mouths shut and spending our lives ensuring our teens have absolutely zero privacy. Goddess knows just what the youth of America are doing behind their parents backs at this very moment. :roll:

[wtfrenchtoast]

So I was reading through the comments (I know, shame on me), and I came across this sentiment: Giving girls Plan B is giving them an "out". People should have to deal with the consequences of having sex. I've heard that before, from friends even. But I don't see where taking Plan B isn't "dealing with it". I think choosing to have an abortion is "dealing with it". I think just about the only way you can not "deal with" an unplanned pregnancy is to literally pretend it hasn't happened, but eventually you will still have to "deal with" labor and delivery. So don't tell me that contraception is an "out". It's a way to deal with having unprotected sex. I don't understand people who think that way.

[samurai_sarah]

So I was reading through the comments (I know, shame on me), and I came across this sentiment: Giving girls Plan B is giving them an "out". People should have to deal with the consequences of having sex. I've heard that before, from friends even. But I don't see where taking Plan B isn't "dealing with it". I think choosing to have an abortion is "dealing with it". I think just about the only way you can not "deal with" an unplanned pregnancy is to literally pretend it hasn't happened, but eventually you will still have to "deal with" labor and delivery. So don't tell me that contraception is an "out". It's a way to deal with having unprotected sex. I don't understand people who think that way.

Babies are supposed to be a punishment for slutty womenz, unless they're a blessing for hetero, god-fearing folks, don't you know? :roll:

I fully agree with you. Making reproductive choices is actively "dealing with it". And giving teenagers options and choices, is helping them deal with it. Having said that, I do see the morning-after pill or Plan B as an "out". A good and responsible sort of "out" when you're not ready to "deal with the consequences of sex". What a silly phrase is that anyway? One of the many consequences of sex can be STIs. We don't deny people antibiotics or other medicines, because they should just "deal with it as a consequence of sex", do we?

[Guest Anonymous]

Babies are supposed to be a punishment for slutty womenz, unless they're a blessing for hetero, god-fearing folks, don't you know? :roll:

I fully agree with you. Making reproductive choices is actively "dealing with it". And giving teenagers options and choices, is helping them deal with it. Having said that, I do see the morning-after pill or Plan B as an "out". A good and responsible sort of "out" when you're not ready to "deal with the consequences of sex". What a silly phrase is that anyway? One of the many consequences of sex can be STIs. We don't deny people antibiotics or other medicines, because they should just "deal with it as a consequence of sex", do we?

Somebody, somewhere, probably does exactly that (and is really fucking smug about it).

[samurai_sarah]

Somebody, somewhere, probably does exactly that (and is really fucking smug about it).

And you're probably right. :cry: Pass the gin and the cupcakes please, I'm going to self-medicate.

[Arete]

:lol: love that. I think those of us who support the program are thinking of the children more by you know wanting them to be safe and protected. Which is funny, because the people who say that are thinking of their own comfort level/ideology, not the children.

What I think is really what is getting the religious right's whitey tighties in a twist is the fact that this program does have an opt out, and only 2% of parents avail themselves of it. They can scream about parental rights all they want, but the fact is most parents in this program have no issues.

[Minerva]

Being a parent that keeps tabs on them and teaches pros and cons of certain behaivors is what keeps them safe.

What if they decide the pros outweigh the cons of sex? Then, either your tab-keeping has to be minute enough that they never get time alone with a special someone, or they'll need to access contraception in order to keep safe. And do you really consider micro-managing every minute of your teen's day ethical?

Is it good for 15 year olds to have sex when they cannot legally drink or vote or even get tattos?

Why does being barred from drinking, voting, or getting tattoos [without adult accompaniment] mean one should also be barred from having sex? And whether or not teens should be having sex isn't the topic at hand. It's whether teens should have access to contraceptives. Derailing will get you nowhere, though I am curious how the above argument is supposed to work.

I am fairly liberal but I would not want my teen engaging in risky behaivors behind my back when I am still providing for them.

Fair enough. How do you plan on stopping them from doing it?

Teens are not adults yet. And 18 doens't mean to sleep with everyone.

Yes, teens are underage. You've repeated it many times. Can you explain why being underage means you shouldn't have sex? Hint: "because they're not adults" isn't an answer. And ok, you're of the opinion that even adults shouldn't have many sexual partners. That's cool, but how is it relevant to this discussion?

Well at least it is legal.

Are you implying that it's illegal to have sex as a minor? Because that's untrue in most places.

Just because you can do something never means you should. Right? I could get drunk at bar tonight but it may not be in my best interest.

You keep going on about your opposition to teens having sex. You realize that's not an argument against against providing them with contraceptives, right? You could argue that giving teens contraceptives causes them to have more sex - we'd smack it down because it's not based in fact, but that would be a logical way of tying the two thoughts together.

As far as exploring bodies dildos are made for that

What does this mean? That you think parents should buy their kids dildos?

As teens we dont make the best choices.

This is why contraceptives need to be accessible to teens! Because they're the demographic group that's probably the least likely to heed warnings about sex.

I am against medicating kids for a good reason. I have seen too many ppl who succumbed to their habits including an uncle. They will grow up to think medication solves everything.

I don't say this often, but at this point I hope you don't have kids. Medication is lifesaving. The vast majority of it is not addictive, and it improves your quality of life greatly when it doesn't save it. Would you make a child suffer through a headache, or menstrual cramps, or the after effect of a tooth extraction instead of giving them tylenol? What will you do if your kid needs surgery? Anesthesia is medication, too. I can't believe you believe that last sentence. Why would an intelligent human being think medication solves everything? Medication solves the problems it's been scientifically proven to solve. Don't let your kids have narcotics if you're worried about addiction. That's reasonable, but people don't succumb to "habits" because they took advil, had a flu shot, or took plan B.

If a kid cant go to the parents something is wrong.

A very true statement. And when kids know their parents are against them having sex and won't let them access contraceptives, they won't go to their parents. This is unfortunately the case in millions for millions of teens, which is why they need access to contraceptives and sex ed from an outside source.

I believe in responsibility.

I believe in responsibility, too. And when you're responsible for teens' health and well-being, it's responsible to give them an environment in which they are the least likely to get pregnant or catch STIs, regardless of how you personally feel about them having sex. And there's nothing irresponsible about having safe, consensual sex as a teen. So give teens the ability to be responsible about sex, 'cause they're having it.

It just seems parents are lost these days about the birds and the bees. There must be better ways than medicine.

I agree that most parents are clueless when it comes to sex ed. Not sure what it has to do with teens accessing Plan B through schools. Do you consider the copper IUD to be medicine? Because besides sterilization, it's one of the two most effective contraceptive options. It's not very teen-friendly, however.

And since when do you need sex or a partner to be empowered?

You don't. However, if you decide to have sex, which about half of teens do, you need to have information and the ability to protect yourself to make empowered decisions.

Still curious who should have chosen whether I give birth or abort if I had gotten pregnant as a teen. Still curious why you think the New York program is unsafe (Is it the medication thing? Because Plan B is neither addictive nor dangerous). Still curious how you want to make 15-year-olds not want to have sex, since you apparently have a problem with them desiring it at all.

[SpeakNow]

I love how people on the right always talk about how teens these days are so irresponsible. In my book, taking birth control so you don't become a teen parent is incredibly responsible. Pretending teens won't have sex if you just tell them to abstain...that's totally irresponsible.