New York is Awesome and Anti-Choicers are Delusional

[roddma]

Exactly! For some girls parental notifications laws re: abortion and meds like Plan-B can ruin their life and push them to suicide. No joke...

And here I was, thinking that comprehensive sex-ed in US public high-schools being the norm since G-W Bush got out of office...Abstinence-only sex-ed is the best way to have sexually confused people in the long run.

What are these morons so affraid of ?

I must live in what fundies consider Sodom and Gommorah...I graduated high-school in 1991 and remember getting the morning-after pill from the h-school nurse (without any parental notification, at 14 yrs-old you're entitled to medical confidentiality here) 2 or 3 times when I felt more like napping than studying algebra (you had to lay down at the nursing station for an hour or so 'cuz the pill made you nauseous). It wasn't called "Plan-B" though.

Devious, I know...But hey, I was a brat during my teen years and said brat wanted to nap at the time. And that was in 1989! I can't believe fundie make that much noise about Plan-B in f-ing 2012!!

As I said these are minor children. Any sensible parent would be concerned about what goes on behind their back. Safety and concern for our country's children comes before sticking it to Fundies. Shouldn't we place more value on or kids than their sexuality? Noone would want their kids to drink and drive. We would not want them drinking or doing other drugs behind our back so why is this an exception? Why are those who disagree with the program called anti choice.Kids grow up way too fast these days as it is. Devils advocate but they should not be so concerned with sex.And I think some need to stop with the name calling. It does no good and makes you look immature.

[Minerva]

Safety and concern for our country's children comes before sticking it to Fundies.

And many of us have now listed the reasons parental notification puts kids in danger. Can you explain how the New York policy is unsafe?

Shouldn't we place more value on or kids than their sexuality?

What does this even mean?

Noone would want their kids to drink and drive. We would not want them drinking or doing other drugs behind our back so why is this an exception?

Because there's nothing wrong with having consensual, protected sex, whereas drug use and underage drinking is illegal?

[jjmennonite]

I raised my daughter with lots of education and freely spoke about sexual health issues to her. I encouraged her to make her own decisions about who she would hug and kiss, from an early age, hoping that this would help her avoid coersion into anything she did not want to do. I have told her that if she knows somebody well enough to have sex with them, she ought to first know them well enough to discuss birth control.

She would be free to talk to me about anything, and I have always told her that if she did get pregnant, I would support her decision to abort, adopt or keep her baby.

She is 19, and is away at university - starting her 3rd year. She is a very private person, and does NOT come to me with any concerns about anything to do with boyfriends.

I trust her implicitly, to make the right decision (not implying that other parents do not trust their kids.) Five years ago, if she had needed plan B, I would expect she would have availed herself of a school program offering it, and may not have talked to me about it. I am OK with that.

[emmiedahl]

I don't really know how I feel about this. I'm quite conflicted.

On one hand, I think it is awesome. Women getting access to what essentially becomes a health care need. I think knowing this exists will help a lot of teenagers.

On the other hand... I don't feel comfortable with it being dispersed in schools without notifying me. I know I could opt out, but I wouldn't WANT to, as I feel my child would need safe access to that, but I would want to know so I could help figure out how to create a better safe sex environment in our home. I would want notification so I could figure out how this happened... was she raped? pressured to not use condoms? taken advantage of in any way? was it just her being a sexually active teenager? Those are the questions I feel wouldn't be asked by the school nurse. Perhaps I'm wrong... but yeah. I would want to make sure we had the conversation about it after the fact (not to shame her) and we worked on a reasonable approach to make sure she doesn't find herself in this type of situation again.

Those are my feelings.. but I am glad that people are getting access to everything they need to make informed decisions for their own health care.

I think it is great to give girls some empowerment to work out their own contraception. This saves them having to skip school to go to a family planning clinic, which is what my friends and I did at that age. And our parents had no damn idea. I knew people who were late refilling their pills because they could not miss an AP test or they were worried the unexcused absence would keep them from cheerleading in that week's big game, and it did not stop them from having sex. So I support this wholeheartedly. As we have seen from the abstinence-only debacle, teens who are going to have sex will do so regardless of their access to or knowledge about birth control.

I don't think you have to worry, Blackhawk. I start the sex talks early in my house with regard to safety and choices, and my kids know the word condom before they know the word virginity. My teens have always talked to me honestly and let me know when they needed something in that area, whether it is information or supplies. I am pretty sure your children will be the same way. If you attach no moral weight to it, then they tend to involve you by choice. It's easier for them that way because there are no secrets to keep and pills to hide. I have been through 4 teenaged stepchildren and I have a teenager currently. Less than half have had sex while in high school, but those two were pretty open about it and talked about it with me.

I do worry that for whatever reason my children might hide details of their life from me and make bad decisions. So far that has not happened, but it is a concern. My concern would be, why not involve an empathetic and nonjudgmental parent? What would I have done to close lines of communication? And, as you said in different words, what happened that they cannot talk to me about? But I consider their access to birth control more important than my right to know.

Ideally, teens would not have such a crazy sex drive, because they are not generally known for being good decision makers as a group. But that is not how it is. We have to work to keep them all safe as a group, most especially the ones who feel they cannot talk to their parents. Because those are the kids making decisions without adult input, often not very good decisions.

[jjmennonite]

As I said these are minor children. Any sensible parent would be concerned about what goes on behind their back. Safety and concern for our country's children comes before sticking it to Fundies. Shouldn't we place more value on or kids than their sexuality? Noone would want their kids to drink and drive. We would not want them drinking or doing other drugs behind our back so why is this an exception? Why are those who disagree with the program called anti choice.Kids grow up way too fast these days as it is. Devils advocate but they should not be so concerned with sex.And I think some need to stop with the name calling. It does no good and makes you look immature.

WTF

I count myself as a sensible parent, but I did not think of being 'concerned about what goes on behind my back', but rather trusted her and honoured her privacy, in an age appropriate manner. It would certainly be a lot safer for her to have plan b than to have an abortion or a baby.

Also, as another poster pointed out, the school has no way of knowing what the parental situation is.

[TinyDancer87]

I applaud New York. I think it's wonderful that they are taking steps toward an issue that is critical in NY public school systems. Instead of old men debating in their rocking chairs on whether abstinence-only curriculem (sp?) is best, NY actually did something! This allows young women to approach school nurses and doctors without fear, who might otherwise be hesitant because of their economic or social status. And as a result, young teens will recieve valuable information and dialog that might have been missed otherwise.

I recognize that this is a HUGE and WONDERFUL step for women. Actually, this is a sigh of relief, because for a moment I was nervous where our future was heading with women's healthcare. But this is a good sign, and I hope NY doesn't back down from all the negative feedback.

[TinyDancer87]

I don't really know how I feel about this. I'm quite conflicted.

On one hand, I think it is awesome. Women getting access to what essentially becomes a health care need. I think knowing this exists will help a lot of teenagers.

On the other hand... I don't feel comfortable with it being dispersed in schools without notifying me. I know I could opt out, but I wouldn't WANT to, as I feel my child would need safe access to that, but I would want to know so I could help figure out how to create a better safe sex environment in our home. I would want notification so I could figure out how this happened... was she raped? pressured to not use condoms? taken advantage of in any way? was it just her being a sexually active teenager? Those are the questions I feel wouldn't be asked by the school nurse. Perhaps I'm wrong... but yeah. I would want to make sure we had the conversation about it after the fact (not to shame her) and we worked on a reasonable approach to make sure she doesn't find herself in this type of situation again.

Those are my feelings.. but I am glad that people are getting access to everything they need to make informed decisions for their own health care.

This isn't directed towards you, just in general. If a daughter is too nervous to go to a parent and talk about sexual experiences with that parent, then they would be too scared to go to such parent and ask for Plan B pill. So elliminating the choice for the student to get meds from the school does not automatically guarentee that dialog would just take place in the home.

[Witsec7]

...

As I said these are minor children. Any sensible parent would be concerned about what goes on behind their back. Safety and concern for our country's children comes before sticking it to Fundies. Shouldn't we place more value on or kids than their sexuality? Noone would want their kids to drink and drive. We would not want them drinking or doing other drugs behind our back so why is this an exception? Why are those who disagree with the program called anti choice.Kids grow up way too fast these days as it is. Devils advocate but they should not be so concerned with sex.And I think some need to stop with the name calling. It does no good and makes you look immature.

My POV as a parent was that teens were allowed to have private lives. I had no expectation of knowing 100% of what my teens did when they were out of my presence. I had confidence that they would behave ethically, responsibly and thoughtfully, but they were teens and mistakes were part of that learning curve they had to experience on the road to maturity.

I concur with Emmie about early education about sex and choices and relationships. Start early and converse often, to ensure the conversations are comfortable for everyone. And yes let them know you value the use of condoms, perhaps even alternatives to penetrative sex (mutual masturbation) so if they choose they can comfortably delay intercourse while still having physical intimacy in a relationship.

From Emmie D

If you attach no moral weight to it, then they tend to involve you by choice.

Without the moral weight, or slut shaming the conversations will continue. It is the moral weight, the condemnation, slut shaming and biblical platitudes that keep these dialogs from happening. When a child is raised in a sex negative home, the simplest conversations about desire, human reproduction and STDs are likely not to occur.

[Minerva]

When a child is raised in a sex negative home, the simplest conversations about desire, human reproduction and STDs are likely not to occur.

Or if they do occur, it'll be with the teen pretending to agree wholeheartedly that abstinence is best!!! and kids are having sex too soon these days!!! and then doing what they want on their own time, as was the case with me.

I knew a fundie lite girl whose parents locked her in the house when she wasn't at school and even had bars put on her window, and she still managed to have sex on the lunch hour. And her parents thought they were raising a virginal little angel!

[Minerva]

Ooh, I missed some of roddma's edits:

Why are those who disagree with the program called anti choice.

Because being opposed to people's reproductive rights is usually seen as the definition of anti-choice, and people's reproductive rights include access to emergency contraception.

Kids grow up way too fast these days as it is. Devils advocate but they should not be so concerned with sex.

Well they are, and [link=http://www.nytimes.com/2009/01/27/health/27well.html]not just "these days"[/link]. Thank mother nature. We can pretend they don't do it and they'll suffer the consequences, or we can equip those who want to have sex with the ability to do it safely. You talk about sex as though there's something wrong with it. What is that?

[Anxious Girl]

Ooh, I missed some of roddma's edits:

Because being opposed to people's reproductive rights is usually seen as the definition of anti-choice, and people's reproductive rights include access to emergency contraception.

Well they are, and [link=http://www.nytimes.com/2009/01/27/health/27well.html]not just "these days"[/link]. Thank mother nature. We can pretend they don't do it and they'll suffer the consequences, or we can equip those who want to have sex with the ability to do it safely. You talk about sex as though there's something wrong with it. What is that?

Maybe she's 1 of those types where people have to listen to her idea of have to respect her idea of Wait 'till marriage to have sex!advice for everybody, even though the rest of the world doesn't work that way. :roll:

[Buggaboo]

There's something about comment sections that attracts all all the stupid.

QFT

And many of us have now listed the reasons parental notification puts kids in danger. Can you explain how the New York policy is unsafe?

What does this even mean?

Because there's nothing wrong with having consensual, protected sex, whereas drug use and underage drinking is illegal?

Minerva, I think you are reading my mind. You responded to every point I wanted to and you did it more eloquently than I would've.

And Roddma, free jinger isn't about worrying what people think of us. It isn't about "seeming immature". It's about being as we are. Being real. As I stated before, the things you say might look pretty and morally superior on paper, but they illustrate a severe shortage of reality. We are dealing with what IS, not what SHOULD BE.....or more to the point what you think should be.

Edited for over thinking :roll:

[Anxious Girl]

QFT

Minerva, I think you are reading my mind. You responded to every post I wanted to and you did it more eloquently than I would've.

And Roddma, free jinger isn't about worrying what people think of us. It isn't about "seeming immature". It's about being as we are. Being real. As I stated before, the things you say might look pretty and morally superior on paper, but they illustrate a severe shortage of reality. We are dealing with what IS, not what SHOULD BE.....or more to the point what you think should be.

Don't persecute her for her ideas, you big meanie!!!

[Buggaboo]

Don't persecute her for her ideas, you big meanie!!!

Awww, thanks Anxiousgirl! That's the sweetest thing anybody's said to me all day! :mrgreen: And also it makes me think of my favorite cartoon, I posted it before but I'm posting again now in honor of my big meanie-ness!

[Witsec7]

Or if they do occur, it'll be with the teen pretending to agree wholeheartedly that abstinence is best!!! and kids are having sex too soon these days!!! and then doing what they want on their own time, as was the case with me.

I knew a fundie lite girl whose parents locked her in the house when she wasn't at school and even had bars put on her window, and she still managed to have sex on the lunch hour. And her parents thought they were raising a virginal little angel!

Longitudinal data studies at my DD's HS showed that purity ballers had higher instances of STDs and teen pregnancy than the kids whose parents provided them with comprehensive sex ed from an early age.

[Buggaboo]

Longitudinal data studies at my DD's HS showed that purity ballers had higher instances of STDs and teen pregnancy than the kids whose parents provided them with comprehensive sex ed from an early age.

Who needs longitudinal data studies when you have the bible and a belly full of righteous zeal? :roll:

[Witsec7]

Who needs longitudinal data studies when you have the bible and a belly full of righteous zeal? :roll:

Since the right wing won the culture war in my small Boregon town, it now has some of the highest rates of teen pregnancy and STDs in the state. I'm sure it's got nothing to do with them adopting Gothard's Character First :roll:

[Buggaboo]

Since the right wing won the culture war in my small Boregon town, it now has some of the highest rates of teen pregnancy and STDs in the state. I'm sure it's got nothing to do with them adopting Gothard's Character First :roll:

That is horrible. :o Truly. No snark. That's bullshit, Gothard.....ruining lives on a daily basis. That makes me mad.

[Arete]

This program is not encouraging anyone to have sex or lie to their parents. The issues have to be seperate out here. Some parents may expect that their children to not have sex until they get married, but why are they asking everyone else to create a punitive environment for them? Either what you teach is so good and self explanatory that your daughter will never need to buy a condom or consider Plan B, or what you teach may not be realistic. I'll go with the later. It's also just been my observation that the stricter and more dogmatic the parents are, the more likely the kids are sneaking around and lying to their faces. That reflects badly on the parentin technique, not the child who is sneaking around and lying. They do it to protect themselves.

Everybody has skin in this game. It is to nobody's advantage to leave their children ignorant of human reproduction. The only thing it assures is the reproduction of more humans who are born into poverty and homes that did not want them.

[Sprocket]

Who needs longitudinal data studies when you have the bible and a belly full of righteous zeal? :roll:

:lol: I like you more and more every, single day.

[roddma]

Maybe she's 1 of those types where people have to listen to her idea of have to respect her idea of Wait 'till marriage to have sex!advice for everybody, even though the rest of the world doesn't work that way. :roll:

As I say THEY ARE MINOR children. I am all for reproductive educaton but Reproductive rights apply when you are old enough and responisble enough to making those decisions. Those who 'want to have sex' need not include 15 year olds. When you are under 18, parents still have legal control over you and should be informed of anything. No i am not one of those who says everyone should wait until marriage. I have seen kids who think they know it all. It only further promotes the religious right's agenda against public schools.

[Witsec7]

As I say THEY ARE MINOR children. Reproductive rights apply when you are old enough and responisble to making those decisions. Those who 'want to have sex' need not include 15 year olds. It only further promotes the religious right's agenda against public schools.

To the bold. I'm somehow hearing denial in this phrase. Their hormones tell them they need sex, sex positive parents don't shame kids out of exploring their own bodies and enjoying masturbation. But teens will have sex and I preferred mine to be educated in contraception, understand consent and withdrawal of same and have a working knowledge of STD transmission. Openly conversing with teens about using dental dams and barriers of STD's may get the fundies all wound up. But frankly I could care less. We need to reduce teen pregnancy rates, that means education and availability of contraceptives.

[samurai_sarah]

As I say THEY ARE MINOR children. Reproductive rights apply when you are old enough and responisble to making those decisions. Those who 'want to have sex' need not include 15 year olds. It only further promotes the religious right's agenda against public schools.

Let's not provide 15 year-olds who may have sex with the means to protect themselves, because that might upset the religious right? Maybe that's me, but I'd be more concerned about keeping teens safe, than about upsetting the religious right. In my books, providing emergency contraception is part of a bigger, educational deal. And emergency contraception, is just that: it's for when things go wrong. Denying someone that to pander to the religious right, needlessly endangers them.

[Minerva]

As I say THEY ARE MINOR children. I am all for reproductive educaton but Reproductive rights apply when you are old enough and responisble enough to making those decisions. Those who 'want to have sex' need not include 15 year olds. When you are under 18, parents still have legal control over you and should be informed of anything. No i am not one of those who says everyone should wait until marriage. I have seen kids who think they know it all. It only further promotes the religious right's agenda against public schools.

What does them not legally being adults have to do with this? Is there something about turning 18 that makes you suddenly competent to have sex?

How do you propose making 15-year-olds not want to have sex, since that's apparently your answer to this controversy?

You think teens shouldn't have reproductive rights? That's fucked up. I'm curious, though, if I had gotten pregnant when I was 15, who should have decided whether or not I was having an abortion?

Why should parents have legal control over you before you turn 18? I'll remind you that children aren't property, and that their rights therefore have to be balanced with their parents' authority.

Why do you feel that the New York program is a threat to teens' safety?

[roddma]

Being a parent that keeps tabs on them and teaches pros and cons of certain behaivors is what keeps them safe. Is it good for 15 year olds to have sex when they cannot legally drink or vote or even get tattos? I am fairly liberal but I would not want my teen engaging in risky behaivors behind my back when I am still providing for them. Even as adults I would hope I gave them enough knowledge. Teens are not adults yet. And 18 doens't mean to sleep with everyone. Well at least it is legal. Just because you can do something never means you should. Right? I could get drunk at bar tonight but it may not be in my best interest. As far as exploring bodies dildos are made for that.