Woman who 'aborts' in 39th week sentenced to 8 years.

[ilovetchotchkes]

I think this woman is lying. Inducing labour at 39 weeks will - unless something goes wrong with the delivery - result in a live child. I think she killed the child after it was born and is now lying to save her skin.

THIS.

The reason I personally think this is because even if you use "old school" induction methods- castor oil, black/blue cohosh, sex, spicy foods etc, most of the time the baby ends up alive.

In my state it would make no sense to do something like this- my state has a thing where you can drop off an unwanted infant at ANY hospital or fire station. NO questions asked. Hell, i think ALL states have something like that (after I googled it)

I honestly think she was/is mentally ill. Nobody in their right mind, would do something like this- I feel sorry for her. It IS infanticide and its bugging me that its being billed as "abortion". Isn't the drug she used actually used in some L&D situations to induce labor?

[27randomscribbles]

So, she induced labor that resulted in a living, breathing infant, and then threw it away? That should be considered murder.

This. Like many of us are saying, this is no abortion and using the term causes a lot of issues (to me), since this is actually murder, and not in the anti-choicer idea of an embryo being "murdered".

[Mythicwings]

Maybe I'm reading wrong, but I don't see any of us saying this.

Oh one person here did, and some other people maybe elsewhere? Sorry, I can't remember who and didn't want to spend a bunch of time citing sources, I was just speaking to the opinion more than to actual persons.

ETA: Yeah sorry! I just re-read what I wrote and it sounds like I'm saying that many people are saying this, and really hardly anyone is - it was just shocking to me that anyone would and I worry that it plays into the hands of people who are adamentlly anti-choice. Yeah most here aren't saying this at all.

[Frumpalicious]

This. Like many of us are saying, this is no abortion and using the term causes a lot of issues (to me), since this is actually murder, and not in the anti-choicer idea of an embryo being "murdered".

I totally understand because using the terms "murder" and "abortion" are issues to me, too. It has to be a person in order to be murdered, so when does personhood legally begin?

ETA: I need to add that the last question isn't meant to be answered. I do not want to start some sort of flame war.

[emmiedahl]

This is the drug they give you to soften your cervix before they start the pitocin in inductions. I have had it in two out of four inductions. It will not harm the baby in any way.

[Burris]

The anti-choice crowd – those who support and engage in home-birth activities, in particular – would do well not to call this an abortion: Inducing at full term is not illegal. If it were, home-birthers and doctors all over the US would be facing charges for an oxymoron of criminal justice: 'Live abortion.'

The criminal act under discussion here differs even from the almost non-existent practice of “partial-birth abortion†in that there is no advantage in it – e.g., reduced labor impact – over the act of giving birth in the usual way and simply abandoning the baby.

Remove the fact of self-induction from this story and all that remains is the murder of a child – a being separate from its mother and no longer in need of her body as a source of life-support.

The judge is correct. This woman had options before the pregnancy began, and even until the 20th week of pregnancy. By week 39, she had a whole new set of options since she was at full-term and on the verge of delivering a viable child.

This individual sounds depraved and utterly without remorse. Quite frankly, I don't think eight years in prison is enough. We're not talking about some traumatized teenager, here. We're talking about a woman in her 30s who has been pregnant at least three previous times.

I've seen a few posters here arguing the woman may be mentally ill. So what? Unless she were so deluded that she could no longer tell right from wrong, it doesn't matter. She's still a murderer.

[Mythicwings]

The anti-choice crowd – those who support and engage in home-birth activities, in particular – would do well not to call this an abortion: Inducing at full term is not illegal. If it were, home-birthers and doctors all over the US would be facing charges for an oxymoron of criminal justice: 'Live abortion.'

The criminal act under discussion here differs even from the almost non-existent practice of “partial-birth abortion†in that there is no advantage in it – e.g., reduced labor time – over the act of giving birth in the usual way and simply abandoning the baby.

Remove the fact of self-induction from this story and all that remains is the murder of a child – a being separate from its mother and no longer in need of her body as a source of life-support.

The judge is correct. This woman had options before the pregnancy began, and even until the 20th week of pregnancy. By week 39, she had a whole new set of options since she was at full-term and on the verge of delivering a viable child.

This individual sounds depraved and utterly without remorse. Quite frankly, I don't think eight years in prison is enough. We're not talking about some traumatized teenager, here. We're talking about a woman in her 30s who has been pregnant at least three previous times.

I've seen a few posters here arguing the woman may be mentally ill. So what? Unless she were so deluded that she could no longer tell right from wrong, it doesn't matter. She's still a murderer.

Yeah, that's the thing - it's confusing about why the writer of this article is trying to call it an abortion. It's an odd choice of words. The woman could have induced labour, then dropped her kid off at a hospital while her husband was still out of town. (Did he not realize she was pregnant?) Maybe the writer used the word abortion from the woman googling "where can I get an illegal abortion". She just wanted the baby dead and I guess she figured she could get someone else to do it, which of course what were they going to do then?

About the stillbirth possibility mentioned before - maybe, it's always possible of course that the baby WAS stillborn, but it's really unlikely and she had the intent to kill him. Plus she's untrustworthy in general based on the litter trail from her whole life, so the judge had to come to some kind of decision. Maybe the 8 years was him considering that maybe a stillbirth possibly happened, no matter what her intent was.

[Sola]

Yeah, that's the thing - it's confusing about why the writer of this article is trying to call it an abortion. It's an odd choice of words. The woman could have induced labour, then dropped her kid off at a hospital while her husband was still out of town. (Did he not realize she was pregnant?) Maybe the writer used the word abortion from the woman googling "where can I get an illegal abortion". She just wanted the baby dead and I guess she figured she could get someone else to do it, which of course what were they going to do then?

About the stillbirth possibility mentioned before - maybe, it's always possible of course that the baby WAS stillborn, but it's really unlikely and she had the intent to kill him. Plus she's untrustworthy in general based on the litter trail from her whole life, so the judge had to come to some kind of decision. Maybe the 8 years was him considering that maybe a stillbirth possibly happened, no matter what her intent was.

Oh I'm not saying she shouldn't punished. I just think prison is inappropriate. In 5 or 6 years she'll be out and if any mental health issues haven't been addressed, what then? In all likelihood any mental health issues will get worse in prison, not better. I'd rather see her detained under the mental health act somewhere like Rampton http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rampton_Secure_Hospital, Broadmoor http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Broadmoor_Hospital or Ashworth http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ashworth_Hospital.

These hospitals are high security in a similar vein to high security prisons. Heck, the Yorkshire Ripper is in one of them. They are prisons, but also hospitals where if she does have mental health issues, those issues will be identified and treated.

Prison is supposed to punish and rehabilitate, but if she has mental health issues then that wont be addressed in prison.

[27randomscribbles]

Yeah, that's the thing - it's confusing about why the writer of this article is trying to call it an abortion. It's an odd choice of words. The woman could have induced labour, then dropped her kid off at a hospital while her husband was still out of town. (Did he not realize she was pregnant?) Maybe the writer used the word abortion from the woman googling "where can I get an illegal abortion". She just wanted the baby dead and I guess she figured she could get someone else to do it, which of course what were they going to do then?

It's not even just this article that I posted. Every single article you find on this story from bbc to lifenews calls it an abortion. No one even questions the story of the woman! They all simply say she took meds to cause a miscarriage and voila, abortion. How does no one reporting see how this doesn't make sense and that it's not an abortion?

[ilovetchotchkes]

Oh I'm not saying she shouldn't punished. I just think prison is inappropriate. In 5 or 6 years she'll be out and if any mental health issues haven't been addressed, what then? In all likelihood any mental health issues will get worse in prison, not better. I'd rather see her detained under the mental health act somewhere like Rampton http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rampton_Secure_Hospital, Broadmoor http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Broadmoor_Hospital or Ashworth http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ashworth_Hospital.

These hospitals are high security in a similar vein to high security prisons. Heck, the Yorkshire Ripper is in one of them. They are prisons, but also hospitals where if she does have mental health issues, those issues will be identified and treated.

Prison is supposed to punish and rehabilitate, but if she has mental health issues then that wont be addressed in prison.

I agree with this. She needs rehabilitation and mental health care. Prison alone may just exacerbate the mental issues already there.

[Mythicwings]

Are there methods to help sociopaths develop a conscience, or to un-repress one that was there but hidden from a super abusive childhood? People get rid of their empathy all the time in order to survive violent parents, and if that's the case she could hopefully be helped, but is there a way to actually do this?

[Beeks]

If the woman really did google searches for "illegal abortion" and bought the meds and took them in the attempt to abort the baby (maybe it was a super high dose or something? She bought them online, right? Who knows what she really got), and it worked, how is that not a very late abortion?

Also, aren't there ways for a medical examiner to tell if an infant took a breath outside the womb? They would know if she murdered the baby.

[Mythicwings]

If the woman really did google searches for "illegal abortion" and bought the meds and took them in the attempt to abort the baby (maybe it was a super high dose or something? She bought them online, right? Who knows what she really got), and it worked, how is that not a very late abortion?

Also, aren't there ways for a medical examiner to tell if an infant took a breath outside the womb? They would know if she murdered the baby.

Because the drug she used induces labour. It is used to bring on labour and produce a still-living child, if the mother is having trouble with delivery or needs to deliver earlier if the baby is big, etc.

ETA: also, the baby is missing, right? And she won't say where he is?

[Burris]

Oh I'm not saying she shouldn't punished. I just think prison is inappropriate. In 5 or 6 years she'll be out and if any mental health issues haven't been addressed, what then? In all likelihood any mental health issues will get worse in prison, not better. I'd rather see her detained under the mental health act somewhere like Rampton http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rampton_Secure_Hospital, Broadmoor http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Broadmoor_Hospital or Ashworth http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ashworth_Hospital.

These hospitals are high security in a similar vein to high security prisons. Heck, the Yorkshire Ripper is in one of them. They are prisons, but also hospitals where if she does have mental health issues, those issues will be identified and treated.

Prison is supposed to punish and rehabilitate, but if she has mental health issues then that wont be addressed in prison.

Good point. You're right.

[Burris]

Also, aren't there ways for a medical examiner to tell if an infant took a breath outside the womb? They would know if she murdered the baby.

From the HuffPo article:

She said the child was not breathing or moving and that she had buried his body but has not revealed the location.

From what I understand, the substance she took is supposed to induce labor without harming the child about to be born.

The rest of Catt's story sounds like just so much bullshit. She says she had three pregnancies before this one - all unwanted. One she aborted. One ended with a child whom she gave up for adoption. One ended with a child whom she decided to keep. And this latest pregnancy ended with a dead child. (She is, apparently, a huge fan of variety.)

She can read well enough to google, "how to get an illegal abortion" and yet couldn't find time in her busy schedule for some form of birth control? Irresponsible, stupid, mean - this woman has it all.

[Minerva]

Oh one person here did, and some other people maybe elsewhere? Sorry, I can't remember who and didn't want to spend a bunch of time citing sources, I was just speaking to the opinion more than to actual persons.

ETA: Yeah sorry! I just re-read what I wrote and it sounds like I'm saying that many people are saying this, and really hardly anyone is - it was just shocking to me that anyone would and I worry that it plays into the hands of people who are adamentlly anti-choice. Yeah most here aren't saying this at all.

I re-read and still didn't find anyone calling it an abortion or a legitimate reproductive choice. Are you referring to the Huffington Post article's author by any chance?

[Mythicwings]

I re-read and still didn't find anyone calling it an abortion or a legitimate reproductive choice. Are you referring to the Huffington Post article's author by any chance?

On the first page I was confused about what Wandering said, and I still think I may have misunderstood, but it also reminded me of a couple other things I heard (not here).

[Spartan89]

This is the drug they give you to soften your cervix before they start the pitocin in inductions. I have had it in two out of four inductions. It will not harm the baby in any way.

It is used to induce if given vaginally, or it can be given orally in low doses. Misoprostol can cause fetal demise if given in high doses. If that is the case, I think calling it an abortion is appropriate.

[LadyBlue]

This is the drug they give you to soften your cervix before they start the pitocin in inductions. I have had it in two out of four inductions. It will not harm the baby in any way.

No Cervadil is the drug they give before Pitocin and it has a slight risk of harm, just as Pitocin does. Cytotec aka misoprostol has a manufacturer's black box warning not to use to induce labour because it frequently results in uterine hyperstimulation and fetal demise. OBs still use it because it is incredibly cheap and some seem to think they are above the rules. Many women have become aware of how dangerous Cytotec is, so they have started calling it "miso" in hospitals. If she self-induced with Cytotec, it's highly possible it caused the baby to die before birth. The mystery would be how she wasn't killed as well. Cytotec is responsible for a lot of maternal deaths too.

[Beeks]

Because the drug she used induces labour. It is used to bring on labour and produce a still-living child, if the mother is having trouble with delivery or needs to deliver earlier if the baby is big, etc.

ETA: also, the baby is missing, right? And she won't say where he is?

Ah you're right. I wonder then if they're calling it an abortion because without the body, there was no way to prove murder, and this got her a worse sentence than manslaughter.

Edit riffles

[Mythicwings]

No Cervadil is the drug they give before Pitocin and it has a slight risk of harm, just as Pitocin does. Cytotec aka misoprostol has a manufacturer's black box warning not to use to induce labour because it frequently results in uterine hyperstimulation and fetal demise. OBs still use it because it is incredibly cheap and some seem to think they are above the rules. Many women have become aware of how dangerous Cytotec is, so they have started calling it "miso" in hospitals. If she self-induced with Cytotec, it's highly possible it caused the baby to die before birth. The mystery would be how she wasn't killed as well. Cytotec is responsible for a lot of maternal deaths too.

Why do they make it then, of it is killing people off?

[Rosa]

It has other uses - most importantly in medical abortion, as the second pill that causes you to expel what's in your uterus after the first pill stops the pregnancy. Wikipedia lists 4 uses, but 3 of them are actually just "induced labor" in different circumstances:

"Misoprostol is a drug that is used for the prevention of nonsteroidal anti-inflammatory drug (NSAID) induced gastric ulcers, to treat missed miscarriage, to induce labor, and as an abortifacient. "

[Spartan89]

Why do they make it then, of it is killing people off?

It's used for a lot of other purposes, such as preventing ulcers and inducing first trimester abortion, and is known to be relatively safe in those cases.

[Mythicwings]

It has other uses - most importantly in medical abortion, as the second pill that causes you to expel what's in your uterus after the first pill stops the pregnancy. Wikipedia lists 4 uses, but 3 of them are actually just "induced labor" in different circumstances:

"Misoprostol is a drug that is used for the prevention of nonsteroidal anti-inflammatory drug (NSAID) induced gastric ulcers, to treat missed miscarriage, to induce labor, and as an abortifacient. "

oooh ok, right. Man that sounds so much better for miss miscarriage than the old D&C thingy. Thanks!

ETA: Thanks also, Spartan!

[keen23]

I was given Misoprostol before my IUD was placed. Because while I'd had three children, they were all c-sections and I never dilated. The Misoprostol supposedly made it easier to place the IUD.