Virginia doesn't even make sure homeschool kids are taught.

[Glass Cowcatcher]

I truly agree with you. I had a pal who was a former school teacher with a masters and she was rigorous when it came to lesson plans and benchmarks. This woman loved to teach and she was the first to admit that teaching your kids is a lot different than teaching in a classroom situation. When she anticipated teaching physics and felt she was weak in the subject she went back to school and took classes. Both of her girls went on to top tier universities with scholarships. In the end, she admits she had no life for all those years of home educating.

The other point I want to make regarding oversight is district contact with home schoolers. Here in Oregon we've seen kids murdered and neglected by their parents while they were home schooled. Lack of contact in some of these situations ends in tragedy. Every year I hear of a new case. Some years there are multiple kids neglected and abused from several different families. It's ugly and preventable.

And the homeschooling community refuses to admit that homeschooling could ever, possibly be used to aid abuse. It sickens me. :(

[Wolfie]

The push towards charter schools terrifies me.

I taught in one, but it was only part of my schedule, and was all fully credentialed, unionized teachers. Very rare for a charter school.

The fact that they don't have to be unionized or fully credentialed is what scares me when people push charter schools. Not to mention that people have tried to make them into for profit businesses.

[jesssnerch]

I'll go a step further. This kind of attitude is why I think that so many homeschooling parents are fucking lazy, and arrogant. Even the non-religious ones. They think that they are oh so much better than teachers who have gone through professional training to become certified, but balk at any regulations to ensure they are actually capable of competently teaching. They think they have the wherewithal to competently educate their children, which will affect the rest of their lives, but putting together records and paperwork for the state is too much to ask.

So few of them seem to get that yes, there are bad homeschoolers-- many, many of them-- and that the point of state regulations is not to unduly harass them but to make sure their child gets the education that they have a right to. Neither do they get that in most cases "The public school is of poor quality, or I don't like the curriculum they use," is irrelevant to how qualified they are to teach.

For my part I will not be a supporter of homeschooling until the parents are required to have the exact same certifications as public school teachers.

End rant.

I totally agree with this! There should be some kind of training for parents who want to homeschool. Let's face it, if the parents barely have a high school education, how the hell can they be expected to teach their kids through high school. Now granted, there are some people who are very smart and self educated and just don't have formal education under their belt, but how would any state entity know that unless they have some kind of training course? Teaching your kid is serious business and a parent could really hold a child back by not giving him or her a quality education.

[lilah]

"The public school is of poor quality, or I don't like the curriculum they use," is irrelevant to how qualified they are to teach.

For my part I will not be a supporter of homeschooling until the parents are required to have the exact same certifications

Yeah how about being held to the same standards?

I often hear about homeschooling parents who brag about how advanced their children are compared to public school educated children. (baker's dozen was the most recent)And sure kids who are educated at home are self-paced so they can work further along than a public school kid but often being advanced in one or two areas might mean they are normal to weak in others if their parents emphasize only one form of education. And I wonder if there's some pressure in homeschooling to prove how your kid is a total overachiever at it.

One example of this a homeschooling mom who enrolled her two children in my elementary school. She was dropping hints about how her kids might need to be advanced because they were reading far far ahead of grade level, which is true but their children's writing and math skills were average to their grade level. I suspect she really emphasized reading because maybe she thought that was what would be impressive. Or maybe she just thought elementary education = precocious reading.

[Glass Cowcatcher]

Yeah how about being held to the same standards?

I often hear about homeschooling parents who brag about how advanced their children are compared to public school educated children. (baker's dozen was the most recent)And sure kids who are educated at home are self-paced so they can work further along than a public school kid but often being advanced in one or two areas might mean they are normal to weak in others if their parents emphasize only one form of education. And I wonder if there's some pressure in homeschooling to prove how your kid is a total overachiever at it.

One example of this a homeschooling mom who enrolled her two children in my elementary school. She was dropping hints about how her kids might need to be advanced because they were reading far far ahead of grade level, which is true but their children's writing and math skills were average to their grade level. I suspect she really emphasized reading because maybe she thought that was what would be impressive. Or maybe she just thought elementary education = precocious reading.

That seems to be a popular one. I think homeschooling kids tend to be advanced readers because their parents simply do not challenge them in any other way, and they become bored.

"My 9-year-old read Lord of the Rings! Speshul Snowflake! Who cares if she doesn't know math or science?"

[Mythicwings]

That seems to be a popular one. I think homeschooling kids tend to be advanced readers because their parents simply do not challenge them in any other way, and they become bored.

"My 9-year-old read Lord of the Rings! Speshul Snowflake! Who cares if she doesn't know math or science?"

YES. It's the only challenging thing. The only other place they seem to be pushed (the ones I know) are in revisionist U.S. history and bronze-age science. At least one set of my nieces and nephews were allowed to read all sorts of fiction (except Harry Potter sigh) but another isn't allowed to read anything, really. Maybe the American Girl books but I wouldn't even bet on that. And she LOVES to read, but self-censors to fairy tales.

[Glass Cowcatcher]

YES. It's the only challenging thing. The only other place they seem to be pushed (the ones I know) are in revisionist U.S. history and bronze-age science. At least one set of my nieces and nephews were allowed to read all sorts of fiction (except Harry Potter sigh) but another isn't allowed to read anything, really. Maybe the American Girl books but I wouldn't even bet on that. And she LOVES to read, but self-censors to fairy tales.

Reading is probably one of the easiest things for a parent to teach their kids, so a a kid that appears to be "advanced" in reading when they're really bored out of their skull might create a vicious gratification cycle.

[marmalade]

This is why I'm leary of private and charter schools as well. They don't have to have the certifications that public school teachers have. (though some do, but you really have to dig to find out.)

Wrong w/r/t charter schools, at least here in the Commie state. They're intrinsically tied to the public school district in which they're located. Teachers have to be fully credentialed, as a teacher at the public school down the street, to teach at them. I am currently in a concurrent grad school/credentialing program and was placed in a charter school to complete the first three quarters of my student teaching. The last quarter may be at a public school or another charter; the state recognizes both as equal.

[MissBeaufort]

Yeah how about being held to the same standards?

I often hear about homeschooling parents who brag about how advanced their children are compared to public school educated children. (baker's dozen was the most recent)And sure kids who are educated at home are self-paced so they can work further along than a public school kid but often being advanced in one or two areas might mean they are normal to weak in others if their parents emphasize only one form of education. And I wonder if there's some pressure in homeschooling to prove how your kid is a total overachiever at it.

I homeschooled through junior high and high school for a bunch of reasons, and there definitely is that pressure. My homeschooling was highly regulated in junior high - a detailed curriculum had to be presented and there were several facilitator visits a year - and in high school, I started online schooling so I had proper teachers for the more complicated subjects. Despite this, whenever I told someone that I was homeschooled, the reaction tended to be suspicious. The assumption was that I had to be getting a sub-par education. My Mom once had a fight with a friend because the friend insisted that I could not be taking the same year end exams as her daughter and getting the grades that I was (which was dumb, because the exam was the standardized province-wide Grade 12 diploma. It's the same for everyone, that's the point).

Now, after homeschooling for so long, I've seen lots of families where the system failed spectacularly, so... I tend to be wary of it. I firmly believe that more regulation is a very, very good thing, and that it's best to be as close to the provincial school curriculum as possible. I'm appalled that there are places where there are no rules whatsoever. But, in answer to your question, there definitely is a strong urge to tell anyone who asks that you are doing REALLY WELL AT EVERYTHING I PROMISE because of the assumption that you can't be home schooling and doing real work. I know all of my relatives thought my decision was bizarre and didn't hesitate to tell my parents so. The pressure to perform was always there because I always had something to prove.

[Wolfie]

Wrong w/r/t charter schools, at least here in the Commie state. They're intrinsically tied to the public school district in which they're located. Teachers have to be fully credentialed, as a teacher at the public school down the street, to teach at them. I am currently in a concurrent grad school/credentialing program and was placed in a charter school to complete the first three quarters of my student teaching. The last quarter may be at a public school or another charter; the state recognizes both as equal.

Can I ask what state you're in? Here they are not unionized and often use TFA people in the positions. They can be run by anybody, teachers hired and fired at will (no consistancy for the students) and run by for profit corporations.

ETA- they have to be tied to a school district in the state, but it doesn't have to be the local one. (most are tied to the local one, but not all)

[Megan]

I'm another pro-homeschooling regulation person. I remember being horrified while reading about FLDS and homeschooling in Carolyn Jessop's second book (though FLDS managed to get away with a lot when the local schools were open, since the teachers were all FLDS). Unfortunately homeschooling seems to have a huge lobbying bloc and politicians are unwilling to promote more legislation as a result.

re: reading and homeschooling. I feel like people who aren't doing so well can emphasize that, as it's easy to say a kid is reading something. Much harder to prove how well they understood the novels they were reading. It's a lot easier to tell if someone understands math and science than how much of a book they understood. My neighbor went on and on about how her kids were way ahead of public school... until they had to start going to public school, at which point she was freaking out about catching up.

[DarkAnts]

Provo, Utah has a charter school that is quasi homeschool. The parents are given weekly lesson plans and assignments. There is a teacher that supervises the child's learning and help the parent. The teacher calls each parent three times a week and just checks in. The students meet up at functions twice a week so they get some socialization with other kids. I think the charter school is a good compromise. Parents can teach at home but its supervised teaching.

[DarkAnts]

Can I ask what state you're in? Here they are not unionized and often use TFA people in the positions. They can be run by anybody, teachers hired and fired at will (no consistancy for the students) and run by for profit corporations.

ETA- they have to be tied to a school district in the state, but it doesn't have to be the local one. (most are tied to the local one, but not all)

In the states that I have lived in (Utah, Oregon, New Mexico) charter schools have to be tied to the local district.

[patsymae]

One problem with religious exemptions is showing up now with the Amish--the Supreme Court gave them a dispensation from compulsory schooling laws so that they legally stop education after 8th grade (teachers are young unmarried women from the community with that same education)--the rationale being they are a long-established group and they are farmers so their kids can learn the skills they need from their parents--except that now most Amish are not farmers, the kids are working in factories and those who want to leave are woefully unprepared for any but the most menial jobs (except for some guys who can work as carpenters) as they don't even have the basics to get a GED without further study.

In the town I lived in in NC there was a "charter school" that consisted of one lady, who was not a teacher, who took a group of kids to the public library every day, where they mostly ran around and made noise and drove everybody else nuts. The other was tied to the school district and was supposedly pretty good but admission was by lottery and there was no busing so parents who couldn't drive their kids to school and be available to pick them up weren't even considered. Another in Ohio was in the basement of a shelter where kids of all ages spent all their time in that basement doing who knows what--no recreation and probably very little education.

From what I see, charter schools are a way to further erode public education, a way for religious freaks to keep their kids from gaining actual knowledge, or a way for poverty pimps to collect state money for themselves and their friends. IT's very disheartening that so many states allow this to go on.

[formergothardite]

And teachers don't have to do this? Why shouldn't you tell them what you are planning on doing? If you go farther they're not going to hurt you. There are state standards that you should be making sure that your child is getting anyway.

My parents had friends who started homeschooling in NC in the early 80's and it was hard. Really, really hard. At the end of the year you had to go present each child's work to a board of educators (I could have this wrong, it has been awhile since we discussed it, it was some sort of board though) to prove that you were actually teaching them and that they were learning.

My parents, who were big homeschool supporters are now pretty horrified at it becaus of attitudes like Cannelle's. That you should be able to start the year with no idea of what you are even going to learn?! That is just lazy. I have to say, my mother (who was an educator and had a degree) actually gave us a very good education. But she also did things like send us off to be tutored in highschool on subjects she wasn't comfortable with teaching. She was tougher when it came to grading papers than my college professors.

[Guest Anonymous]

I...Illinois was completely unregulated in regards to homeschooling. We didn't need to do anything- didn't need to register or sign up for anything. I just didn't send my son to school at all, and we did all our stuff on our own. I liked that for us, because it allowed us to move at his pace, learning what he needed and what he wanted, and I didn't have anyone breathing down my neck....

When I was five, all I 'wanted' was to dig for worms and read story books all day long. Had I been a child of a fundie parent, their idea of what I 'needed' might have been sufficient reading skills to understand my chore chart, and bible memorisation to reinforce all that is godly about womanhood.

Thank the FSM for regulation.

[wendy-sparkles]

In the town I lived in in NC there was a "charter school" that consisted of one lady, who was not a teacher, who took a group of kids to the public library every day, where they mostly ran around and made noise and drove everybody else nuts. The other was tied to the school district and was supposedly pretty good but admission was by lottery and there was no busing so parents who couldn't drive their kids to school and be available to pick them up weren't even considered. Another in Ohio was in the basement of a shelter where kids of all ages spent all their time in that basement doing who knows what--no recreation and probably very little education.

From what I see, charter schools are a way to further erode public education, a way for religious freaks to keep their kids from gaining actual knowledge, or a way for poverty pimps to collect state money for themselves and their friends. IT's very disheartening that so many states allow this to go on.

Can someone explain to me why parents send their kids to charter schools? Specifically substandard ones like those described, where teachers aren't trained. I can understand why some parents would rather keep their child at home to educate, even though they themselves don't have a degree, but why on earth would you send your child to school to be taught by an unqualified teacher??? It seems like it combines all of the disadvantages of poorly done homeschooling with very few of the advantages. Are they the only option in some areas? My country is in the process of bringing in charter schools ( :( ), and I just don't see what sort of advantage they have, other than in very specific cases - non-private montessori or steiner schools would be one, I guess, but in that situation there would be teacher training, right? Why does anyone think people who haven't trained to be teachers should be teaching classes of kids????

[smores]

Can someone explain to me why parents send their kids to charter schools? Specifically substandard ones like those described, where teachers aren't trained. I can understand why some parents would rather keep their child at home to educate, even though they themselves don't have a degree, but why on earth would you send your child to school to be taught by an unqualified teacher??? It seems like it combines all of the disadvantages of poorly done homeschooling with very few of the advantages. Are they the only option in some areas? My country is in the process of bringing in charter schools ( :( ), and I just don't see what sort of advantage they have, other than in very specific cases - non-private montessori or steiner schools would be one, I guess, but in that situation there would be teacher training, right? Why does anyone think people who haven't trained to be teachers should be teaching classes of kids????

I don't understand charter schools that aren't run through a school district. There are several charter schools in my old city/county and they operate wonderfully; basically all a charter school is there is permission for the school to decide how to spend money and how to teach curriculum. All the same standards for teachers and students apply.

Is it possible these "charter schools" are just calling themselves that? I have just never heard of a school that's a legal charter school with unlicensed teachers and staff... now I have heard of private schools with unlicensed teachers, which is scary, but not charter schools - those are publicly funded.

[CynicMom]

Charter schools are supposed to be better because there aren't any teacher unions. Teacher unions exists to keep bad teachers employed so removing them will create better education. -That's the thinking, anyway. Studies are coming out showing charter school perform no better, so who knows what the new justification will be.

[flojo]

Charter schools are supposed to be better because there aren't any teacher unions. Teacher unions exists to keep bad teachers employed so removing them will create better education. -That's the thinking, anyway. Studies are coming out showing charter school perform no better, so who knows what the new justification will be.

Not just not better, but oftentimes worse. The Stanford CREDO report is the langest investigation into Charter schools. tHey found that, compared to contemporary public school students, students in charter schools outperformed 17% of the time, underperformed 37% of the time, and made no difference the rest of the time. Personally, I'm not for them. I don't like systems that undermine public schools, and don't do as well.

[Mythicwings]

When I was five, all I 'wanted' was to dig for worms and read story books all day long.

OMG you're the twin I always wished I had had! :lol: A neighbor told me I had to stop digging for worms in the front yard or I'd make the house fall down. :(

[Guest Anonymous]

OMG you're the twin I always wished I had had! :lol: A neighbor told me I had to stop digging for worms in the front yard or I'd make the house fall down. :(

My uncle was a fisherman in his spare time, My absolute favourite thing was to play with his tins of fishing bait (live squirming maggots!) and weigh them in my grandma's kitchen scales. We were usually sent out to dig worms in the garden after she finished having a screaming fit at the maggots spilled around the pantry. :D

[Independent Thinker]

I homeschool my child and support some regulation but not others.

First, of all hybrid schools and online schools are now options when it comes to homeschooling. Online school do not suit children well third grade and under because they need to develop good reading and writing skills before switching to a solely online program. Hybrid schools allow the child to attend school part time but do the bulk of the work at home. Some children do not belong in public schools. My child was injured by a teacher the school suspended her without pay for three weeks and stuck her back in the classroom. That was at an A rated magnet school. Most teachers graduate in the bottom 40 percent of their graduating class in college. So even with certification that doesn't mean they are the most well educated or most highly qualified to teach children. An engineer at NASA even without a teaching certificate can run circles around a high school science teacher who graduated toward the bottom of his or her class. By the way I went to college for five years and also went to vocational school for one year.

Second, every state has different laws and every family is a different size. I will openly admit there is no way in heck I could educate a Bates size or Duggar size family. I have an only child so that is a non-issue. He is a year and half ahead in school. I am also not his only educator he has in the past or is currently been involved in art classes, swimming lessons, homeschool pe, workshops at the science mueseum, homeschooling groups, karate, classes at the history museum, church, and scouts. He also frequently goes with my husband on business trips and he made it to 22 states last year. Had he have been strapped to a chair in a classrooom all day he would have missed out on most of that. Public school is a one size fits all education. If it were a perfect system it would have perfect results.

Third, about regulation. Some states like New York and North Dakota are highly rated. Other states like Texas have little to no regulation. I live in Texas and have no oversight from the state what so ever. Studies have been done on homeschoolers to figure out if more regulation equals better results. Those studies have found that there is no correlation. However, going forward I am actually concerned that may change. I feel there is an attitude among some homeschooling families that "It will all work itself out in the end" or "My child doesn't need to know that". I personally am concerned about that mindset. If you are not educating your child to be his or her personal best I don't think you should be teaching them period. This is the reason I support some regulation. I see no reason why parents should not keep copies of the child or children's work, meet once or twice a year for testing or an educational review, and parents should to use teaching materials that meet state and national standards. I have read much of the Gothard, ATI, fundie curriculum. It scares me. I use the book Home Learning Year by Year by Rebecca Rump. Feel free to read the Amazon reviews. Several homeschoolers complain "It's too much" or "I can't cover ALL that material" It really isn't fair to lump all homeschoolers in the same group. There are good homeschooling families and bad ones. There are good schools and horrible schools.

[Mythicwings]

I wonder what happens if a child is being homeschooled in a state with oversight, but isn't keeping up - does anything happen? My sister has to turn in a portfolio every year, but I really get the strong idea that my niece is simply not being shown or taught anything my sister would feel was against her religious beliefs in some way. They are extremely sheltering of her, way more even than the Duggars. And yet the homeschooling goes on seemingly unfettered, as long as she turns in the portfolio. I wonder if anyone actually looks at it.

[meda]

I homeschool my child and support some regulation but not others.

First, of all hybrid schools and online schools are now options when it comes to homeschooling. Online school do not suit children well third grade and under because they need to develop good reading and writing skills before switching to a solely online program. Hybrid schools allow the child to attend school part time but do the bulk of the work at home. Some children do not belong in public schools. My child was injured by a teacher the school suspended her without pay for three weeks and stuck her back in the classroom. That was at an A rated magnet school.

Second, every state has different laws and every family is a different size. I will openly admit there is no way in heck I could educate a Bates size or Duggar size family. I have an only child so that is a non-issue. He is a year and half ahead in school. I am also not his only educator he has in the past or is currently been involved in art classes, swimming lessons, homeschool pe, workshops at the science mueseum, homeschooling groups, karate, classes at the history museum, church, and scouts. He also frequently goes with my husband on business trips and he made it to 22 states last year. Had he have been strapped to a chair in a classrooom all day he would have missed out on most of that. Public school is a one size fits all education. If it were a perfect system it would have perfect results.

Third, about regulation. Some states like New York and North Dakota are highly rated. Other states like Texas have little to no regulation. I live in Texas and have no oversight from the state what so ever. Studies have been done on homeschoolers to figure out if more regulation equals better results. Those studies have found that there is no correlation. However, going forward I am actually concerned that may change. I feel there is an attitude among some homeschooling families that "It will all work itself out in the end" or "My child doesn't need to know that". I personally am concerned about that mindset. If you are not educating your child to be his or her personal best I don't think you should be teaching them period. This is the reason I support some regulation. I see no reason why parents should not keep copies of the child or children's work, meet once or twice a year for testing or an educational review, and parents should to use teaching materials that meet state and national standards. I have read much of the Gothard, ATI, fundie curriculum. It scares me. I use the book Home Learning Year by Year by Rebecca Rump. Feel free to read the Amazon reviews. Several homeschoolers complain "It's too much" or "I can't cover ALL that material" It really isn't fair to lump all homeschoolers in the same group. There are good homeschooling families and bad ones. There are good schools and horrible schools.

The bolded is not only wrong, it is stunningly offensive. Please look at the attached link:

http://shankerblog.org/?p=4395

I highly doubt a NASA enginer is going to be a better teacher than someone who is actually trained to be an educator. In fact, skilled professionals who enter the teaching profession as a second career without going through a teacher certification program or taking advanced coursework in education tend to have worse student outcomes.

http://www.eeraonline.org/journal/files ... _et_al.pdf

I'm sorry your son had a bad experience with a teacher, but you are painting with an awfully broad brush here.