Virginia doesn't even make sure homeschool kids are taught.

[Witsec7]

Charter schools are supposed to be better because there aren't any teacher unions. Teacher unions exists to keep bad teachers employed so removing them will create better education. -That's the thinking, anyway. Studies are coming out showing charter school perform no better, so who knows what the new justification will be.

Bullshit.

[Mythicwings]

Maybe people who are anti-teacher simply don't understand what they have to go through to become teachers. It probably depends on the state, but in a lot of areas they have to do VERY well in their college grades to be accepted into the teaching program in college. Then they have to go further to be certified, keep taking classes to keep up with certain things and then go through internships in places that are often the bottom of the barrel. There is a huge attrition rate of prospective teachers because to get there is so hard and often very nasty, not to mention the just normal crap the ones that make it need to put up with from all directions. And yet - some still manage to still want to be a teacher. And then they are dumped on and treated like it's just a babysitting job that a 16 year old could do. That so many people think it's better to homeschool, that THEY can teach better, shows how much people believe the crap the right puts out there about teachers. But of course, teachers represent knowledge and that was verboten in the Garden of Eden, so it's Godly to be anti-teacher.

BTW, I use to love the idea of homeschool because it was so great for kids who had trouble within the mainstream, but it's been taken over by people who act like real knowledge and curiosity is a bad thing - that God touched their heart to remove their child from the secularism of learning and questioning.

*edited to change "how little" to "how much". Kind of makes a difference :D

[Wolfie]

My uncle was a fisherman in his spare time, My absolute favourite thing was to play with his tins of fishing bait (live squirming maggots!) and weigh them in my grandma's kitchen scales. We were usually sent out to dig worms in the garden after she finished having a screaming fit at the maggots spilled around the pantry. :D

I remember bringing some worms in from the garden to wash. My mom does not like worms/maggots/anything that resembles them. She came into the kitchen as I was washing them in the kitchen sink and I got a lecture on how we don't wash worms in the kitchen sink. So I took them to the bathroom. It resulted in a we don't wash worms in the house. Then when I used the hose, it was we don't need to wash worms at all!

[Wolfie]

I don't understand charter schools that aren't run through a school district. There are several charter schools in my old city/county and they operate wonderfully; basically all a charter school is there is permission for the school to decide how to spend money and how to teach curriculum. All the same standards for teachers and students apply.

Is it possible these "charter schools" are just calling themselves that? I have just never heard of a school that's a legal charter school with unlicensed teachers and staff... now I have heard of private schools with unlicensed teachers, which is scary, but not charter schools - those are publicly funded.

Charter schools have to be affiliated with a school district, but they are very, very, very rarely run by one. Generally it's only the affiliation. Sometimes it can be counties away- some states have tried to pass laws to change that, but not many. There also have been some shut down because of the abysmal education they provide, and otherwise they tend to not attract very good teachers because they are not unionized, so unless it's something special like a Waldorf charter, they tend to attract the ones who have a hard time holding a job in a regular school, or who are just starting and very idealistic, but not experienced.

[marmalade]

Maybe people who are anti-teacher simply don't understand what they have to go through to become teachers. It probably depends on the state, but in a lot of areas they have to do VERY well in their college grades to be accepted into the teaching program in college. Then they have to go further to be certified, keep taking classes to keep up with certain things and then go through internships in places that are often the bottom of the barrel. There is a huge attrition rate of prospective teachers because to get there is so hard and often very nasty, not to mention the just normal crap the ones that make it need to put up with from all directions. And yet - some still manage to still want to be a teacher. And then they are dumped on and treated like it's just a babysitting job that a 16 year old could do. That so many people think it's better to homeschool, that THEY can teach better, shows how little people believe the crap the right puts out there about teachers. But of course, teachers represent knowledge and that was verboten in the Garden of Eden, so it's Godly to be anti-teacher.

BTW, I use to love the idea of homeschool because it was so great for kids who had trouble within the mainstream, but it's been taken over by people who act like real knowledge and curiosity is a bad thing - that God touched their heart to remove their child from the secularism of learning and questioning.

This. As a grad student in a top-tier program, I can attest to the fact that one has to do more than just scrape through college. Education programs today work with problem-posing, and putting theories into practice long before a candidate receives their credential. Just because the NASA engineer may have a PhD in engineering does not guarantee that he/she can TEACH.

Bottom line, teaching is a LEARNED SKILL that encompasses much more than subject mastery.

[Independent Thinker]

The bolded is not only wrong, it is stunningly offensive. Please look at the attached link:

http://shankerblog.org/?p=4395

I highly doubt a NASA enginer is going to be a better teacher than someone who is actually trained to be an educator. In fact, skilled professionals who enter the teaching profession as a second career without going through a teacher certification program or taking advanced coursework in education tend to have worse student outcomes.

http://www.eeraonline.org/journal/files ... _et_al.pdf

I'm sorry your son had a bad experience with a teacher, but you are painting with an awfully broad brush here.

A blog post defending teachers isn't going to change my point of view. Offending teachers isn't something I worry to much about. On a daily basis I here stories similar to my own.

On every university campus studied, the average SAT score of students in the college of education is lower (usually by about 100 points) than the average SAT score of the entire university.

On every university campus studied, the college of education gives the HIGHEST grades as compared to all other colleges!

This means Our WORST students are going into teaching, and they are being held to the LOWEST standard.

Results of a study released by a 19-member commission that was appointed and funded by Louis Gerstner, a former IBM chairman:

Those who score poorly on college entrance exams are TWICE as likely to go into teaching compared to those who score well on the exams.

61% of middle school math teachers do not even have a minor in math!

At least a third of entry-level teachers quit within five years. In urban schools, the rate is even higher.

As a result, these statistics should not surprise us:

In a test used to screen job applicants, 59% of prospective teachers in Massachusetts failed a test said to be on the eighth grade level.

The mandatory test of basic reading and writing skills was taken by 1,795 prospective teachers in April. A panel of educators recommended 77% as the passing mark. After the results were made known, the passing score was lowered to 66%, so only 44% of the prospective teachers would be denied employment.

Though this attracted much national media discussion, it shouldn't be too surprising.

According to a Scripps Howard News Service report, in the 43 other states which also use such pre-employment testing, at least 30% of the candidates have consistently failed.

Homeschooling facts show plainly that the quality of a homeschooled student’s education is independent of the parents “qualifications†to teach!

K-12 Basic Battery for those whose parents are certified teachers: 88

K-12 Basic Battery for those whose parents aren’t certified teachers: 85

This compares to 50% for public schools

http://www.homeschooling-family.com/hom ... facts.html

[gardenvarietycitizen]

Trust me, the LAST person you probably want teaching kids math is an actual math major.

Have you ever attended university classes at large research universities where Nobel Laureates are teaching freshmen? Remember how TERRIBLE that is? Yeah.

There's something to be said for teaching itself as a skill. Having subject knowledge is very much not the same thing as being able to transmit knowledge of a subject to other people. (Of course that's not to imply that a certain level of subject knowledge isn't necessary, but it is definitely NOT the only thing involved.)

[Glass Cowcatcher]

Independent Thinker, that post is an excellent example of the false dichotomy rampant in the homeschooling community I mentioned yesterday.

How "bad" the public schooling teachers are has absolutely no bearing on how qualified homeschooling parents are.

If they can't teach math, or science, or reading, that won't change, whether the average public schooling teacher is in the top or bottom 10 percent.

And just as a point of reference, as my SO recently graduated with a teaching certificate, very little of what you learn in education college is actually the details of the subject matter they hope to teach, it's more pedagogy and methods of teaching.

[meda]

The blog post I linked to was a summary of the statistical analysis that led to the sound bite. The post had links to numerous research organizations. You also completely ignored my second link to a peer reviewed study in The Journal of Research in Education. By contrast, you linked to a Christian homeschooling site with a bunch of unsupported assertions. I would expect something a little more substantial from a NASA scientist, but I guess if you just want to troll threads spew shit about teachers then you've accomplished your goal.

[SpeakNow]

A blog post defending teachers isn't going to change my point of view. Offending teachers isn't something I worry to much about. On a daily basis I here stories similar to my own.

I'm glad you don't worry about offending teachers. I work really hard every day just like you. I don't want to offend people, and I hope you don't think it's ok to bash and/or offend teachers. There are some bad teachers, just like their are bad homeschooling parents.

I just hate it when people rag on teachers without thinking about the amount of education and daily planning and problem solving we have to do. Just because their are bad teachers, doesn't mean all teachers are bad. Sorry for ranting but it really really really pisses me off when people rag on teachers. We work hard, get a low salary, and are generally under appreciated.

[Wolfie]

The bolded is not only wrong, it is stunningly offensive. Please look at the attached link:

http://shankerblog.org/?p=4395

I highly doubt a NASA enginer is going to be a better teacher than someone who is actually trained to be an educator. In fact, skilled professionals who enter the teaching profession as a second career without going through a teacher certification program or taking advanced coursework in education tend to have worse student outcomes.

http://www.eeraonline.org/journal/files ... _et_al.pdf

I'm sorry your son had a bad experience with a teacher, but you are painting with an awfully broad brush here.

Thank you- I have always scored at the top of my class when tested- Kinder through grad school. The idea that those who can't teach is false, and most of us did well in our classes, but CHOSE to teach. When parents pass this idea off to their children, it causes a lack of respect for their teachers, and less success in school for them.

(I have a friend who is a rocket scientist. She knows that she would not be a good teacher for her children, so she sends them to school.)

[Mommy22alyns]

I'm sorry your son had a bad experience with a teacher, but you are painting with an awfully broad brush here.

Just as homeschooling is being painted with an awfully broad brush here. :roll:

[Wolfie]

A blog post defending teachers isn't going to change my point of view. Offending teachers isn't something I worry to much about. On a daily basis I here stories similar to my own.

What a great example of a home educator.

[Glass Cowcatcher]

Just as homeschooling is being painted with an awfully broad brush here. :roll:

No it's really not. There are more than enough examples of bad homeschooling parents to earn the suspicion. If "Good" ones object to the broad brush they should take a more proactive stance against the bad ones.

[meda]

Just as homeschooling is being painted with an awfully broad brush here. :roll:

How so? Has anyone said that all homeschooling parents are stupid and apparently violent? That is what Independant Thinker said about school teachers. Most people here have said that there should be some oversight of homeschooling. Whereupon all the hyper defensive homeschoolers come out of the woodwork with ancedata about their own little snowflakes and how all of their teachers were mean and stupid. Stupid? For licensed professionals with Master's degrees? Is that really the best you've got? :roll:

[Rosa]

Charter schools often want to be exempt from teacher licensing rules. In my state (Minnesota) they are not exempt. There are plenty of unaccredited private schools, though, and parents seem to choose them out of pure idiocy - like it's easier to teach academics at home if the school covers all the important Bible stuff, rather than do the religion and values at home and let pros teach history and chemistry.

In some cases it makes a lot of sense to have teachers who weren't formally trained, though, or not trained in our university system - children from some communities NEVER see a teacher who looks like them or speaks their native language, and one way to fix that is to hire unlicensed teachers and give them a few years to get licensed or an alternate licensure track. There used to be a program for inner-city teachers here where if you'd commit to a specific school, you got to teach for a certain amount of time while earning your degree. A friend of mine did it in St Paul (she had a BFA, so she did have a degree, just not a teaching one.) I can see the value in having people who have been there, done that in a nontraditional/second chance school, too, with or without a 4 year degree.

When my grandmother got her teaching degree it was a 1 year program and she got it before she turned 18. But also, rural teachers at that time earned a pittance and sometimes still had to board with families - she went to normal school because when she was a teen her teacher was living with her family and they became good friends. Can you imagine? But sometimes I wonder if we've gone too far towards "professionalism" instead - so many formally educated teachers burn/wash out in the first few years, it seems like there must be a better system possible.

[Spartan89]

It may not be a popular opinion, but I don't believe that parents need to have any form of higher education to homeschool if they are willing to utilize the many resources available. It's a common misconception that homeschooling parents actually sit down and teach their children every subject. My family used the local community college, homeschool co-ops, and our public schools as part of our curriculum. I also self-taught some subjects. I didn't have any problem transitioning to college (actually, I think I had an easier time than many of my public school peers because I was used to working independently), and I'm currently the top student in my nursing program. Most homeschoolers that I met in the community, even the Christian ones, used a similar system and went on to do very well in college. It's great if homeschooling parents are highly educated and know how to teach, but I don't view it as a necessity if they are willing to use additional resources.

[Independent Thinker]

How so? Has anyone said that all homeschooling parents are stupid and apparently violent? That is what Independant Thinker said about school teachers. Most people here have said that there should be some oversight of homeschooling. Whereupon all the hyper defensive homeschoolers come out of the woodwork with ancedata about their own little snowflakes and how all of their teachers were mean and stupid. Stupid? For licensed professionals with Master's degrees? Is that really the best you've got? :roll:

Where exactly did I say ALL teachers are violent? That's right I didn't.

[Independent Thinker]

What a great example of a home educator.

Since we are grading each others papers. You should have written "What a great example, of a home educator." Congrads, on finding a typo. I found one, too.

[Independent Thinker]

Thank you- I have always scored at the top of my class when tested- Kinder through grad school. The idea that those who can't teach is false, and most of us did well in our classes, but CHOSE to teach. When parents pass this idea off to their children, it causes a lack of respect for their teachers, and less success in school for them.

(I have a friend who is a rocket scientist. She knows that she would not be a good teacher for her children, so she sends them to school.)

Then, I am sure your rocket scientist friend is well aware that NASA has a homeschool program taught by rocket scientists and not certified teachers.

Kevin Kregel a NASA astronaunt teaches part of the program. Apparently, some scientist can teach.

[Witsec7]

I went off to college to become a teacher, pedagogy was not as advanced in those days. I taught for a brief time under a special program and got my loans forgiven. I never went back to teaching, I didn't have the desire or commitment. Simply because I loved learning didn't mean I loved teaching or was any good at it.

It does get a bit tiring hearing folks say anyone can teach kids. No they can't. I've known some gifted well educated home school parents who devoted a large part of their lives to teaching their own children.They produced excellent students and later went back to their professions in public schools. For the life of me, I don't understand the folks that think anyone can teach their kids at the dining room table and provide a quality education. Some can with good resources and mentoring, but certainly not all.

ETA: I'd like a link to the NASA home school program.

totally edited since I effed up Wolfie's quotes.

[Independent Thinker]

I'm glad you don't worry about offending teachers. I work really hard every day just like you. I don't want to offend people, and I hope you don't think it's ok to bash and/or offend teachers. There are some bad teachers, just like their are bad homeschooling parents.

I just hate it when people rag on teachers without thinking about the amount of education and daily planning and problem solving we have to do. Just because their are bad teachers, doesn't mean all teachers are bad. Sorry for ranting but it really really really pisses me off when people rag on teachers. We work hard, get a low salary, and are generally under appreciated.

If you read what I my first post I did say there are bad homeschooling families. I will not pretend the school system is a flawless system and all children would be better off in it. I do not worry about saying negative things about teachers because in cities like Oakland, Detroit, and Chicago less than half the kids will even graduate high school. If you are a good teacher, good for you. If you are a bad teacher, change careers. I never said anywhere all teachers are bad but I also never said all teachers are good either.

[Independent Thinker]

I went off to college to become a teacher, pedagogy was not as advanced in those days. I taught for a brief time under a special program and got my loans forgiven. I never went back to teaching, I didn't have the desire or commitment. Simply because I loved learning didn't mean I loved teaching or was any good at it.

It does get a bit tiring hearing folks say anyone can teach kids. No they can't. I've known some gifted well educated home school parents who devoted a large part of their lives to teaching their own children.They produced excellent students and later went back to their professions in public schools. For the life of me, I don't understand the folks that think anyone can teach their kids at the dining room table and provide a quality education. Some can with good resources and mentoring, but certainly not all.

ETA: I'd like a link to the NASA home school program.

totally edited since I effed up Wolfie's quotes.

We agree on that point. I do not believe ANYONE can homeschool. Again, if you read my first post in this thread I said it needs to be regulated so good homeschooling families don't get thrown under the bus with the bad ones.

As for the NASA homeschool program they have several events and classes throughout the year not all are posted on the website but I will show you some of the links associated. It is not a comprehensive list of all activities offered to homeschoolers for the whole year.

http://www.spacecenter.org/HomeSchool.html

http://www.spacecenter.org/HomeSchoolDetails.html

[DarkAnts]

Not just not better, but oftentimes worse. The Stanford CREDO report is the langest investigation into Charter schools. tHey found that, compared to contemporary public school students, students in charter schools outperformed 17% of the time, underperformed 37% of the time, and made no difference the rest of the time. Personally, I'm not for them. I don't like systems that undermine public schools, and don't do as well.

My neices are in a charter school. Its part of the school district. Its better then the school they were going to. The district they live in is the lowest funded district in Utah. The school they were going to was built in the 70's. It had no internal walls. There were sliding partitions between the class rooms. This made teaching and learning distracting because you could hear what was going on in the classes next to yours. In this situation, the charter school is better. The teachers have a year long contract so no rotating teachers.

[Witsec7]

We agree on that point. I do not believe ANYONE can homeschool. Again, if you read my first post in this thread I said it needs to be regulated so good homeschooling families don't get thrown under the bus with the bad ones.

As for the NASA homeschool program they have several events and classes throughout the year not all are posted on the website but I will show you some of the links associated. It is not a comprehensive list of all activities offered to homeschoolers for the whole year.

http://www.spacecenter.org/HomeSchool.html

http://www.spacecenter.org/HomeSchoolDetails.html

Thanks for the NASA links, I'd quite forgotten that I knew faculty who contributed to the curriculum reviews, some on the content side and some on the pedagogy. I'm sure you realize that there are trained educators who formulate the curricula. NASA also has curricula that is delivered in public schools, online, and some of it is also available to students if they live near a Space Grant University. Actually anyone in the US has ready access to NASA curricula.

It is rather disingenuous for you to allude that the curricula is developed by an engineer or as you would call them, rocket scientist. The production of NASA curricula is well thought out, and has high production values. It is certainly not something a homeschool parent could develop independent of trained educators and scientists delivering content.