The Great Chick-fil-A Snake Oil "Faith" Hustle

[Koala]

I found spanking to be most effective for children between 3 and 6

Hitting children is NOT effective, unless by effective you mean "too damn scared of being hit to disobey". What about that do you not understand? What does a 3-6 year old do to deserve violence from a grown woman?

And again:

How does the divorce rate in your family relate to the fact you all hit children?

How do you claim you come from a non-violent family when 3 generations (at least) have a history of hitting small children in their care?

[Witsec7]

What kind of circumstances make it necessary for an adult to hit a child. What was the reason for you to spank that one child? What behaviors are so egregious that you would lift a hand to hit a child?

[She Who Laughs]

Why is it a crime to hit an adult? Even a fairly tame slap is enough to sue for assault. Why is that?

Because in the eys of the law, no adult is under the disciplinary authority of another adult. Children are under their parent's authority since they are not adults yet.

Parents can also take their child's hand and force them to get in the car and take them home or take them to school or take them anywhere. If an adult does that to another adult it's called kidnapping. Trying to compare adults to children is beyond ridiculous.

And just for the record, I found it interesting in my reading that when Sweden banned spanking, just a year later the number of child abuse cases skyrocketed. The instances of teenage violelence against other teenagers also skyrocketed after spanking was banned.

[Koala]

I guess you missed the old thread where I stated that I haven't spanked my granddaughter yet because she is too young, in my opinion. And whether or not I spank will largely be determined by whether my son and daughter-in-law decide they will spank. They haven't made that decision yet, but when they do, I will respect their wishes for matters of discipline. And I will always choose the least harsh method that works in the situation.

You completely missed it didn't you? You missed the entire point. You have clearly stated that you will hit your granddaughter (if her parents allow it and don't bother denying it because I will just quote you). You have further stated that not only do her parents plan to hit her, but her pediatrician (supposedly) agrees. I am trying to warn of the damage this will inevitably do to her. You have no right to be violent with that child, no matter who tells you it's okay. She does not deserve to be hit.

[Witsec7]

Because in the eys of the law, no adult is under the disciplinary authority of another adult. Children are under their parent's authority since they are not adults yet.

Parents can also take their child's hand and force them to get in the car and take them home or take them to school or take them anywhere. If an adult does that to another adult it's called kidnapping. Trying to compare adults to children is beyond ridiculous.

And just for the record, I found it interesting in my reading that when Sweden banned spanking, just a year later the number of child abuse cases skyrocketed. The instances of teenage violelence against other teenagers also skyrocketed after spanking was banned.

What kind of circumstances make it necessary for an adult to hit a child. What was the reason for you to spank that one child? What behaviors are so egregious that you would lift a hand to hit a child?

[scarygirl]

You haven't answered my questions about Catholics, divorce, and remarriage. Do y

ou believe non-Catholics should be able to re-marry after divorce?

ETA: Should divorced Catholics be able to marry divorced people in a non-Catholic ceremony?

I don't know enough about the Catholic faith to answer that question. If you are asking if divorced people in general should be allowed to remarry? Yes. Provided there was infidelity involved the innocent party is allowed to remarry. I also think it is permissable to divorce in cases of marital abuse.

[Coconut Flan]

Pardon me for being dense, but even if I were to allow that it's the grandchild's parents' decision about whether they spank or not, I can not ever remotely see a license for a grandmother to spank. That is not your child.

[She Who Laughs]

Hitting children is NOT effective, unless by effective you mean "too damn scared of being hit to disobey". What about that do you not understand? What does a 3-6 year old do to deserve violence from a grown woman?

And again:

How does the divorce rate in your family relate to the fact you all hit children?

How do you claim you come from a non-violent family when 3 generations (at least) have a history of hitting small children in their care?

Funny how my siblings and I were never afraid of our parents. We knew that certain behaviors resulted in punishment, sometimes spanking sometimes a different form of punishment. I've actually had this discussion with my siblings and none of us were ever afraid of our parents and we all felt that spanking was both effective and beneficial in our upbringing.

I mentioned divorce simply because I've read people argue that spanking is so damaging that kids won't have normal relationships because of it when they become adults. I just don't buy it.

[Coconut Flan]

I don't know enough about the Catholic faith to answer that question. If you are asking if divorced people in general should be allowed to remarry? Yes. Provided there was infidelity involved the innocent party is allowed to remarry. I also think it is permissable to divorce in cases of marital abuse.

Thank goodness you aren't in charge of divorce and marriage laws anywhere. Back to the 50s with us all!!!

Perhaps that's the solution. We build a time machine and send you back to the 50s where you'd be much more comfortable.

[She Who Laughs]

Pardon me for being dense, but even if I were to allow that it's the grandchild's parents' decision about whether they spank or not, I can not ever remotely see a license for a grandmother to spank. That is not your child.

It would only happen if her parents were not there to discipline her and it would only be with her parents approval. If the parents are with her, it is their job to discipline or not discipline.

[wtfrenchtoast]

Because in the eys of the law, no adult is under the disciplinary authority of another adult. Children are under their parent's authority since they are not adults yet.

Parents can also take their child's hand and force them to get in the car and take them home or take them to school or take them anywhere. If an adult does that to another adult it's called kidnapping. Trying to compare adults to children is beyond ridiculous.

And just for the record, I found it interesting in my reading that when Sweden banned spanking, just a year later the number of child abuse cases skyrocketed. The instances of teenage violelence against other teenagers also skyrocketed after spanking was banned.

That's not necessarily true. Adults are under the authority of the law, so why can't cops spank people? Also, a parent can't just take a child anywhere. Parents can and do kidnap their own children. While I concede to you that we can't treat children and adults exactly the same, that doesn't mean hitting children is right. You seem to think that since hitting tends to stop behavior from repeating, it's acceptable. If my boyfriend smacks me for doing something wrong, I likely won't do it again for fear of being hit. Is that acceptable too?

[Koala]

And whether or not I spank will largely be determined by whether my son and daughter-in-law decide they will spank. They haven't made that decision yet, but when they do, I will respect their wishes for matters of discipline. And I will always choose the least harsh method that works in the situation.

My kids have come to me and told me they appreciated the parenting they received, including the spankings and that is why they have chosen to also spank and I support them 100%.

Even my granddaughter's pediatrician agrees and he's an atheist (so you can't blame it on him being a fundie).

But for my children who have also chosen to spank, I will follow their wishes when it comes to any times when I might have to discipline their children when they are with me without their parents.

if the time came where I was watching their kids for them than I would use the method they chose for discipline in my house as well.

[Witsec7]

...We knew that certain behaviors resulted in punishment, sometimes spanking sometimes a different form of punishment. I've actually had this discussion with my siblings and none of us were ever afraid of our parents and we all felt that spanking was both effective and beneficial in our upbringing.

....

What kinds of behaviors make it necessary for an adult to hit a child?

[Koala]

And just for the record, I found it interesting in my reading that when Sweden banned spanking, just a year later the number of child abuse cases skyrocketed. The instances of teenage violelence against other teenagers also skyrocketed after spanking was banned.

Can you site the statistics on this? Did you ever think that perhaps the child abuse cases skyrocketed because people who hit their children were being charged with abuse where as before they wouldn't have been? Or are you insinuating that if we let parents defuse by hitting their kids they will be less likely to "really" hurt them?

[scarygirl]

Thank goodness you aren't in charge of divorce and marriage laws anywhere. Back to the 50s with us all!!!

Perhaps that's the solution. We build a time machine and send you back to the 50s where you'd be much more comfortable.

Wow, I said divorce was permissible in cases of infidelity and marital abuse. I forgot to add that I think the marital abuse victim should be allowed to remarry. How is that so 1950s? The 1950s were so the opposite. In the 1950s divorce was unthinkable in any manner, including cases of abuse.

For any other reason, people should be careful before they marry. People shouldn't marry just to marry, thinking oh, I have an out. Marriage is a serious indeavor.

[She Who Laughs]

You completely missed it didn't you? You missed the entire point. You have clearly stated that you will hit your granddaughter (if her parents allow it and don't bother denying it because I will just quote you). You have furthered stated that not only do her parents plan to hit her, but her pediatrician (supposedly) agrees. I am trying to warn of the damage this will inevitably do to her. You have no right to be violent with that child, no matter who tells you it's okay. She does not deserve to be hit.

Sorry, in the USA that decision is up to the parents and not you. Where do you get off trying to force your beliefs on to someone else? You don't want fundies trying to force their beliefs on you and you have no right trying to force you beliefs on others. Have my son and his wife consulted their pediatrician? Yes, they have and the pediatrician said it was ultimately their decision but he believed that spanking in moderation was effective and not harmful. And as I said, they have yet to decide if they will spank. Prior to having children they said that they would but they wanted to wait until they actually had children to decide. Now they will need to make that decision. And how can you say the damage is "inevitable" when hundreds of my family members don't believe there was ever any damage done as a result of spanking? You're somehow the authority on this for all children and parents in the entire world? Talk about arrogance.

[Koala]

Funny how my siblings and I were never afraid of our parents. We knew that certain behaviors resulted in punishment, sometimes spanking sometimes a different form of punishment. I've actually had this discussion with my siblings and none of us were ever afraid of our parents and we all felt that spanking was both effective and beneficial in our upbringing.

I mentioned divorce simply because I've read people argue that spanking is so damaging that kids won't have normal relationships because of it when they become adults. I just don't buy it.

I don't believe that when your parents were hitting you that you weren't afraid.

You and possibly your siblings (if they are part of the 90%) did go on to hit your own children. Hitting children is not the mark of normal behavior.

[She Who Laughs]

What kinds of behaviors make it necessary for an adult to hit a child?

There is no specific behavior. It was in circumstances when other methods were not working. I didn't keep a record book to document all the different things my kids did and how I disciplined them for different things. Get over it.

[wtfrenchtoast]

Is it okay for my boyfriend to slap me, or hell, even spank me, to stop me from doing something he doesn't like?

[Coconut Flan]

It would only happen if her parents were not there to discipline her and it would only be with her parents approval. If the parents are with her, it is their job to discipline or not discipline.

Oh, no, no, no, no. You are grandma. Your job is to be a safe refuge, an enjoyment in life not a disciplinarian or a substitute cop. I can not imagine any behavior so heinous that a normal three to six year old would commit (and I have taught nursery school) that would require an experienced grandma to even consider spanking. You have heard of child rearing techniques that try to set up the environment such that the child is guided to positive activities and behaviors such that the need for coercive discipline is minimized? My grandparents would never have considered doing more than removing an object of interest and replacing it with something more acceptable. My parents or in-laws would have hit my children with a view of never seeing them again. To me you sound quite happy with and expecting to usurp your own children's parental responsibilites. There are boundaries in life and to me grandma thinking discipline especially corporal discipline is in her purview is crossing a big one.

[Witsec7]

What does a parent do when mere hitting isn't enough? Withhold food? Tie them in place? Put the child in a cage? Where does a hitter draw the line.

Rhetorical questions, all of them.

I'm gonna let the two attention whores mutually masturbate each other since simple questions have been avoided.

FWIW I did an amazing pedicure today.

[Koala]

Wow, I said divorce was permissible in cases of infidelity and marital abuse. I forgot to add that I think the marital abuse victim should be allowed to remarry. How is that so 1950s? The 1950s were so the opposite. In the 1950s divorce was unthinkable in any manner, including cases of abuse.

For any other reason, people should be careful before they marry. People shouldn't marry just to marry, thinking oh, I have an out. Marriage is a serious indeavor.

Are you out of your mind? It is none of your business to decide who does or does not remarry.

[She Who Laughs]

I don't believe that when your parents were hitting you that you weren't afraid.

You and possibly your siblings (if the are part of the 90%) did go on to hit your own children. Hitting children is not the mark of normal behavior.

I hate to break it to you but 65% of Americans approve of spanking so they must see it as normal behavior. That percentage has stayed the same since 1990. I guess you're in the minority when it comes to what people see as acceptable and normal.

[Coconut Flan]

The 1950s were so the opposite. In the 1950s divorce was unthinkable in any manner, including cases of abuse.

Not quite. In the 50s there was divorce aplenty and it was based on grounds such as you list. Grounds that had to be proven so that someone was at fault and necessitated all kinds of dirty laundry airing. It seems you prefer that to the more mundane statement of irreconcilable differences.

[Koala]

Have my son and his wife consulted their pediatrician? Yes, they have and the pediatrician said it was ultimately their decision but he believed that spanking in moderation was effective and not harmful. And as I said, they have yet to decide if they will spank.

She Who Laughs wrote:

My kids have come to me and told me they appreciated the parenting they received, including the spankings and that is why they have chosen to also spank and I support them 100%.