the fundie royalty have a pow-wow

[Mjackson264]

From what I've heard from several on the fence fundies, is that Sam T is like the black sheep rebel.

He even apparently has a tattoo! :shock: Haha

[justlurking]

From what I've heard from several on the fence fundies, is that Sam T is like the black sheep rebel.

He even apparently has a tattoo! :shock: Haha

And he apparently drinks alcoholic drinks...well, at least wine, as evidenced by the following video captured by Doug during their last European vacation: http://vimeo.com/27309185

[redcurls]

From what I've heard from several on the fence fundies, is that Sam T is like the black sheep rebel.

He even apparently has a tattoo! :shock: Haha

"Rebel" as in his habits are a bit worldly for fundie tastes, or "Rebel" as in Sam T doesn't quite drink the Kool-Aid and sees women as more than housekeepers, cooks, and walking uteri?

[Kitty]

I enjoy how they have to modify the old designs to make them more modest. Their precious good old days were not quite good enough apparently.

That's what I noticed about the Tudor-era dresses: they're insanely high-necked. Real Tudor-era necklines would be just above the nipples, and the sleeves were sometimes off the shoulder.

[SpikedPeaches]

From what I've heard from several on the fence fundies, is that Sam T is like the black sheep rebel.

He even apparently has a tattoo! :shock: Haha

Um wait... didn't you say in an earlier post that you were surprised he was wearing a t-shirt? And here you say you have inside sources that he's a renegade with a tat? Doesn't add up. :? Sorry to be all suspicious, but it's just a little odd.

[fundie_junkie]

:shock: Check this one out of Sam Turley, what a find eh? Haha

Well, Hello there! I'm feeling very defrauded right now! I guess he really likes to speak on the Civil War, and TN secession. http://tnsecession2011.com/Speakers/

I wonder if he ever went to a real college or just the SOTDRT.

[Mjackson264]

Since your curious, I actually know an ex-Dougie worshipper who is a FJ reader and

For his sake he shall remain nameless. However, I found out more info about Sam through him.

He interests me, I think he might see or may have already seen to some extent, how effed

up the fundie community is.

He actually, according to this source, is going to the University of Texas and has a girlfriend.

For what that's worth, I don't know.

[OddlyAmused]

"Rebel" as in his habits are a bit worldly for fundie tastes, or "Rebel" as in Sam T doesn't quite drink the Kool-Aid and sees women as more than housekeepers, cooks, and walking uteri?

If he is a "rebel", it's probably the first one. I wouldn't hold out hope for the second. But yes, defrauding indeed!

[Naga Viper]

I will now measure all fundie fashion against this: [link=http://www.buzzfeed.com/peggy/35-untapped-fashion-trends-from-forgotten-decades]35 Untapped Fashion Trends from Forgotten Decades[/link]

I'm surprised/not surprised by how many of those the Duggars are guilty of. That said, the hidden message ring is pretty cool and I kind of want a giant neck bow for Halloween now.

[VintageJen1984]

I'm a full time reenactor- ie I don't play dress up at conferences, I play dress up damn near every weekend when I'm not gestating.

A well fitted corset is NOT uncomfortable, or as restrictive as everyone thinks. I can and have run pell mell in one. If you can't breathe, or can't eat? it does not fit you properly. Seriously, the corsets that are horrifically restrictive and screw up your insides come from later on in history- the 1890's- the infamous "spoon busk" and the "s bend" ones. The 1860's corsets are honestly, very comfortable if you get a properly fitted one- at least for me, I have back issues, and wearing one is actually REALLY comfortable for my poor arthritis ridden lower back. :) Really, its only supposed to be as tight as a pair of spanx- just enough to hold up the "girls" and smooth you out a bit, also, corsets have a VERY practical application- the weight of a 5-7 yard skirt + petticoats+ a hoop- if you have that just around your waist, its quite painful, corsets actually help redistribute the weight of all that clothing.

Also, there are patterns (i'm in the middle of making one) for "sensible stays" that basically hold up "the girls" but are not boned.

sewingcentral.com/cgi-bin/Web_store/web_store.cgi?page=705T.html&cart_id=6244_8419

Before anyone asks, I was still wearing mine until about 14-15 weeks pregnant (with my midwives' permission of course) I never got around to finishing the "sensible stays" but since they have a nursing option, i'll be finishing them and wearing them out next season. (I ended up sitting out most of this season due to the extreme heat in the Chicagoland area)

The girls in most of these shots need over the hoop petticoats, you're not supposed to see the lines of the hoop. Its the 1860's equal of a bra strap showing. The one in the purple and black, if she's wearing pagoda sleeves needs under sleeves... And what's funny, is I can pretty much tell which Simplicity pattern each one of them used...

QFT. I've worn corsets for Renaissance faires and Shakespeare plays and find them actually to be far more comfortable than a bra. I have actually wondered why we haven't ditched bras for corsets.

And I recognized those patterns right away. (They tend to be more modest than is historically accurate in the breast/chest area, but I think those the Botkins are wearing have been modified to be even slightly more modest than the Simplicity.)

[Drunkenbutterfly]

If he is a "rebel", it's probably the first one. I wouldn't hold out hope for the second. But yes, defrauding indeed!

Speaking of tattoos, I recently discovered one on Mr.Disharoon(posted on his twitter). It seems to be an ordinary cross with no frills, but still.

[Miggy]

Joshie & Justice Phillips, Lawson Bates, Sam Turley, Charles Vernier, John & Joseph Maxwell and possibly, in a few years time, Josiah Duggar & Trace Bates. Plenty of pretty boys for the girls to choose from. (Pity they don't actually get to choose and just have to put up with whichever loser impresses their father.)

Shall we play matchmaker and try and pair them all up? I am thinking the Michaella Bates would make someone a lovely wife but she is too good for any of these boys. Erin Bates is pretty but useless so I think one of the Maxwell boys can have her. Erin admits she can't cook but it won't matter as she has Sarah, Anna & Mary to teach her. For Joshie Phillips, I am thinking Jessa Duggar. Jessa always seems a bit smug to me and we have seen her turn tyrant when looking after siblings. This strong personality will serve her well as future queen of VF. Lawson Bates can have Elizabeth Munck, now that she has broken up with Joseph Maxwell. They both come from families that get along and know how to have fun.

Anyone got any other suggestions?

[formergothardite]

Since your curious, I actually know an ex-Dougie worshipper who is a FJ reader and

For his sake he shall remain nameless. However, I found out more info about Sam through him.

He interests me, I think he might see or may have already seen to some extent, how effed

up the fundie community is.

He actually, according to this source, is going to the University of Texas and has a girlfriend.

For what that's worth, I don't know.

KISA? :lol:

[Lady_M]

That's what I noticed about the Tudor-era dresses: they're insanely high-necked. Real Tudor-era necklines would be just above the nipples, and the sleeves were sometimes off the shoulder.

Anne Boleyn was considered to be a trend-setter and very fashionable in the Tudor court...she would definitely have had her dresses cut far lower than what the Botkin girl is wearing.

If the inaccuracy of the dresses isn't annoying enough, I once found the article/blog post that went along with the costume, where the Botkins essentially wrote how Anne Boleyn was a martyr for the Protestant faith, was totally virtous, etc. Drove me nuts. I've read a great deal about the Tudor period (Alison Weir, Antonia Fraser, Eric Ives, and David Starkey just to name a few), and while Anne Boleyn was many things, totally virtuous wasn't among them. There's the fact of Anne's well-documented cruelty towards her stepdaughter Mary and her ugly treatment of Katherine of Aragon. The Botkins make it sound as though Anne died as a martyr for the Reformation, but that really seems to have had very little do do with her execution (Anne's faith is a subject of some debate among historians, and not producing the desired son probably had far more to do with her eventual death than any faith matter). Anne didn't deserve to die the way she did and was almost certainly innocent of the charges of adultery brought against her that lead to her execution, but she wasn't a saint either.

[Markie]

Anyone got any other suggestions?

Mary Maxwell can have Josiah Duggar, since the Duggars enjoy having fun and Mary needs to escape from doom and gloom.

Sarah Maxwell can have Donald Staddon - a very boring man, but he likes to travel and so she could help him with his "ministries."

Tori Bates can have Madison Munck. She likes animals and he knows how to take care of them properly.

Jinger Duggar can have Jon, the exchange guy. Why? The Duggars need some ethnic mix and she would enjoy doing some photo shoot in Indonesia.

Anna Maxwell can have one of the Arndt men; I like Mark, so she can have Mark. She will switch to wearing pants, start playing baseball and when her older brothers visit, get them hooked on sport once agian so they allow their little Maxwells to play without guilt.

John Maxwell can marry and join Sarah Reith's family. The Reiths will allow him to play the guitar as much as he wants - they'll even allow him to read music with the words!

I still haven't come up with grooms for the Botkinettes. Any ideas?

[emeraldskull]

Does anyone know if the girls made their costumes or ordered them? They look expensive and I figure the girls all put in some work to produce the end results. I wonder if these fundie girls start acquiring a range of costumes after attending multiple conferences' costume balls? Making them seems a "feminine" thing to do as a SAHD.

I'm pretty positive they made them. I found Elizabeth's dress pattern in walmart. :-D On Simplicity website: http://www.simplicity.com/p-1547-costumes.aspx

Anne Boleyn was considered to be a trend-setter and very fashionable in the Tudor court...she would definitely have had her dresses cut far lower than what the Botkin girl is wearing.

If the inaccuracy of the dresses isn't annoying enough, I once found the article/blog post that went along with the costume, where the Botkins essentially wrote how Anne Boleyn was a martyr for the Protestant faith, was totally virtous, etc. Drove me nuts. I've read a great deal about the Tudor period (Alison Weir, Antonia Fraser, Eric Ives, and David Starkey just to name a few), and while Anne Boleyn was many things, totally virtuous wasn't among them. There's the fact of Anne's well-documented cruelty towards her stepdaughter Mary and her ugly treatment of Katherine of Aragon. The Botkins make it sound as though Anne died as a martyr for the Reformation, but that really seems to have had very little do do with her execution (Anne's faith is a subject of some debate among historians, and not producing the desired son probably had far more to do with her eventual death than any faith matter). Anne didn't deserve to die the way she did and was almost certainly innocent of the charges of adultery brought against her that lead to her execution, but she wasn't a saint either.

Exactly. Um... she was the King's mistress before she ever married him. From my readings of her, yes, her death was undeserved because she was not committing adultery. King Henry VIII was pretty much a sicko who just wanted a son. :-P

But yes, it does confuse me greatly that the Botkinettes would find Anne Boleyn to be a woman that they would want to emulate and/or cosplay as. :shock:

[medievalist1980]

If I remember correctly, in Eric Ives's book on Anne Boleyn, he argues that she was executed because she felt that all the money gained after the dissolution of the monasteries should go to founding education centers at Oxford and Cambridge that would promote Protestant beliefs. Allegedly, the higher ups made it look like she was having an affair and acting "traitorously" because they wanted to keep the cash.

I seriously doubt the Botkinettes have ever read this work, though.

[Kitty]

I'm pretty positive they made them. I found Elizabeth's dress pattern in walmart. :-D On Simplicity website: http://www.simplicity.com/p-1547-costumes.aspx

Exactly. Um... she was the King's mistress before she ever married him. From my readings of her, yes, her death was undeserved because she was not committing adultery. King Henry VIII was pretty much a sicko who just wanted a son. :-P

But yes, it does confuse me greatly that the Botkinettes would find Anne Boleyn to be a woman that they would want to emulate and/or cosplay as. :shock:

Well, if you don't do your research, Anne Boleyn is the kind of woman an SAHD would look up to. She was fashionable (though not modest, not that they care anyway), pretty smart and quite well-educated, refused to have sex with Henry before marriage (yeah, that marriage was totally Henry getting into her pants) and yes, pretty devout.

On the flip side, yes she was cruel to Katherine and Mary, and don't forget, she was Henry's mistress before she was his wife. Meaning, Henry was cheating on Katherine with her, and Anne was okay with that. You'd think the fundies would hate Anne for being the "other woman" and Henry for being an adulterous SOB, but noooo....

Oh, and at the time of Henry founding the Church of England, he never intended for it to be Protestant, per se. He was a devout Catholic himself who wrote several treatises on why Martin Luther should go suck a bag of dicks. He split with the Roman Catholic Church because he couldn't divorce Katherine or marry Anne. Anne's execution was more about court politics and Henry REALLY wanting a son than to do with her faith.

[Mjackson264]

Re: the fundie royalty have a pow-wow

Quote:

Anyone got any other suggestions?

Mary Maxwell can have Josiah Duggar, since the Duggars enjoy having fun and Mary needs to escape from doom and gloom.

Sarah Maxwell can have Donald Staddon - a very boring man, but he likes to travel and so she could help him with his "ministries."

Tori Bates can have Madison Munck. She likes animals and he knows how to take care of them properly.

Jinger Duggar can have Jon, the exchange guy. Why? The Duggars need some ethnic mix and she would enjoy doing some photo shoot in Indonesia.

Anna Maxwell can have one of the Arndt men; I like Mark, so she can have Mark. She will switch to wearing pants, start playing baseball and when her older brothers visit, get them hooked on sport once agian so they allow their little Maxwells to play without guilt.

John Maxwell can marry and join Sarah Reith's family. The Reiths will allow him to play the guitar as much as he wants - they'll even allow him to read music with the words!

I still haven't come up with grooms for the Botkinettes. Any ideas?

I picture Joshua Phillie joining the two dynasties of Phillips and Botkin by hooking up with Elizabeth. It would seem so appropriate for that to happen. I imagined Sam with one of the Duggars, but if its true he has a girlfriend outside the fundie compound, maybe there is hope for him :lol:

[Sister Mozz]

KISA? :lol:

That was my first thought, as well!

[Mjackson264]

K, I'm fairly new and lost, what the hell is KISA? Knight in Shining Armor? :? lol

[starfish]

The Botkinettes need to get hitched. Pappy Botkin is doing a crap job of matchmaking so it's up to us.

I want them to marry so they will stop with the "girlhood" books.

They can move on to housewifely topics but the girlhood books need to end.

It's getting ridiculous.

[Lady_M]

If I remember correctly, in Eric Ives's book on Anne Boleyn, he argues that she was executed because she felt that all the money gained after the dissolution of the monasteries should go to founding education centers at Oxford and Cambridge that would promote Protestant beliefs. Allegedly, the higher ups made it look like she was having an affair and acting "traitorously" because they wanted to keep the cash.

I seriously doubt the Botkinettes have ever read this work, though.

The Botkinettes (based on their blog post) seem to have only consulted John Foxe's Book of Martyrs for their beliefs on Anne Boleyn's influence on the Protestant Reformation, and Foxe definitely isn't unbiased in his writings.

When I read the Ives book, I understood it that Anne did want to use the money for Protestant and other charitable causes (as Ives notes, "Anne - along with most other prominent reformers - had counted on the endowments being allocated to education or other charitable causes; after all, they represented the charitable donations of past generations" - p. 309) while the powerful Cromwell saw Henry VIII's chronic money problems coming to an end. It didn't really seem to be about Anne's faith - Protestant or otherwise - because Cromwell himself was a strong supporter of the break with Rome and the Reformation. From what I gathered from Ives, Anne's fall appears to come down to money and power games. But if you have a different take on it, I'd love to hear it, I'm a total geek for Tudor history and really enjoy discussing it :D .

I hear you about the Botkinettes never having read Ives...

[fundies_like_zombies]

The Botkinettes need to get hitched. Pappy Botkin is doing a crap job of matchmaking so it's up to us.

I want them to marry so they will stop with the "girlhood" books.

They can move on to housewifely topics but the girlhood books need to end.

It's getting ridiculous.

Girlhood goes on forever in fundyville. 40 year old girls .....

[Lady_M]

Well, if you don't do your research, Anne Boleyn is the kind of woman an SAHD would look up to. She was fashionable (though not modest, not that they care anyway), pretty smart and quite well-educated, refused to have sex with Henry before marriage (yeah, that marriage was totally Henry getting into her pants) and yes, pretty devout.

On the flip side, yes she was cruel to Katherine and Mary, and don't forget, she was Henry's mistress before she was his wife. Meaning, Henry was cheating on Katherine with her, and Anne was okay with that. You'd think the fundies would hate Anne for being the "other woman" and Henry for being an adulterous SOB, but noooo....

Oh, and at the time of Henry founding the Church of England, he never intended for it to be Protestant, per se. He was a devout Catholic himself who wrote several treatises on why Martin Luther should go suck a bag of dicks. He split with the Roman Catholic Church because he couldn't divorce Katherine or marry Anne. Anne's execution was more about court politics and Henry REALLY wanting a son than to do with her faith.

See, and that's the thing I never understood either about the Botkins being all about Anne Boleyn. Honestly, if they wanted to emulate one of Henry VIII's queens, Katherine of Aragon and all of her wifely virtuous piety really is far better, but of course, an ebul Catholic as far as the Botkins are concerned.

Really, the wife they want is Katherine Parr, wife #6, who was truly reformist in her thinking, extremely well learned (I've gotten to read a few of her essays), a good wife to an incredibly difficult husband, loving to her stepchildren, and passed on her Protestant beliefs to her stepdaughter (the future Elizabeth I). Katherine Parr also came dangerously close to being executed by Henry VIII and various henchmen for being too Protestant at one point. But of course, that would involve the Botkinettes actually doing research. Like from actual, historical sources.

And if the Botkinettes had done research on Anne Boleyn from actual, historical sources, they'd probably have learned that despite all her reforming beliefs, she still very much believed in the bodily presence of Christ in communion and spent her last night on earth praying in front of the Eucharist (per Eric Ives) and died a Catholic (per Alison Weir). Which to the Botkins would be heretical to say the least.

Ok, I'll try to quit thread-jacking here ;) . The Botkinette's portrayal of Anne Boleyn just irritates me (clearly).

That's what gets me with all the VF costume stuff - they don't have even the smallest sense of history, and it's all about "I have my opinion, don't confuse me with the facts".