Josh, Anna and the Ms 15: now with Mason

[SapphireSlytherin]

1 hour ago, luv2laugh said:

I think if she had a better social support system she may have left Josh.

Her brother offered to take her (and her kids) in. She chose to stay. For whatever reason.

[JenniferJuniper]

16 minutes ago, SapphireSlytherin said:

Her brother offered to take her (and her kids) in. She chose to stay. For whatever reason.

That was wonderful of him, but we cannot know in practical terms what that support would have been like for Anna and her small children.  Did he have the space for them?  The funds to support them long term?  

Anna can't even imagine what it would be like to eventually support herself.   With a new baby and three little ones at the time, she did exactly what I'd expect a fundie woman to do.  Stick with the wealthy in-laws who no doubt promised her Jesus jail would reform her husband and he'd be back to being what she'd believed him to be when he sang The Loyalty Song at her wedding.  We know he never was and never will be that, but it's probably easier for her to believe that than to even think about striking out without the Duggars. 

[singsingsing]

Again, we have absolutely no idea how serious her brother's offer was. We don't know her brother. We don't know what kind of person he is. We don't know if there were conditions attached to the offer, or even if the offer was real. Literally all we know is that, while ranting about Josh on social media, he declared that he would be willing to take her in. He could have been completely full of shit, or maybe going to live with him would have been even worse than staying with Josh. We can't know.

[Fascinated]

50 minutes ago, luv2laugh said:

Yes, I think it had a lot to do with her not wanting to be uncomfortable physically and uprooting the family. I think she personally wanted/wants out but wasn’t emotionally able to handle being on her own and having to support herself. I think it was too much for her to handle mentally. If it was a typical family, she might’ve been able to stay with supportive parents who could have encouraged her. I don’t think she could handle being on the “bad side” of her parents and her in-laws. I wish she would take “baby steps” like Whitney has done by getting her real estate license and job. If Anna was encouraged to take classes or find part-time to doing something she’d enjoy, it would allow her to become more emotionally independent. I used to say I didn’t feel sorry for her after she rejected her brother’s offer but I changed my mind. She would’ve upset the Duggars,her parents, get a job, and possibly put her kids in school. I don’t think she had the emotional maturity to do what she truly wanted—- leave Josh.

I’ve spoken about this before, and I know it’s an unpopular opinion.  We have no evidence that Anna wanted, or wants, to leave Josh.  None.  We have evidence that she stayed with him, but she has not publicly revealed her reasons for doing so.  The Duggars apparently rallied around Anna while Josh was in Jesus rehab so I honestly don’t think his family would have prevented her from feeling she could leave him.  I have not been privy to any of their conversations and, therefore, I don’t know.  

All I do know is that Anna has stayed with Josh.  I think she stayed because she loves him. I know most of you don’t agree.  I know most of you would not have stayed, were you in Anna’s position.  I don’t know if I would have because, thankfully, I’ve never been in the same situation.  

Josh was the idolized first son in this cult.  I blame his parents a great deal for his actions as a young teenager.  He may be a douche. He may not be.  I don’t know. We don’t know.  I always fall on the side of giving Anna agency to make an informed decision. She is a grown woman with a bunch of children.  As I’ve stated many times, I hope Anna is with Josh because they love each other. I hope Josh is ‘redeemed’. But. I just don’t know. We don’t know.  

[SamuraiKatz]

The whole Josh incident was finally verified and made public after Michelle made the "save the womenz and girlz from the transgendered folks" in public restrooms robocall. Someone local to the area finally used FOIA to verify the story and sold it to In Touch.

The LGBT folks in this part of Arkansas were pissed. My wife and and I are part of that community.

[llg1234]

This had been said before, but I feel sorry for Anna having grown up in an environment that views her as a second class citizen and for the fact that leaving Josh would have been very hard for her. BUT, she made her choice (a choice that she had, regardless of her brother's publicity grab offer) and had another child with Josh. At some point, you have to put your children's needs first. Anna still has awful beliefs, something that's she has had opportunity to change, she just doesn't want to. These Tweets that she liked exemplifies that:

(Sorry if I'm rambling. Men's figure skating at the Olympics has me worked up and... )

[SapphireSlytherin]

31 minutes ago, singsingsing said:

Again, we have absolutely no idea how serious her brother's offer was. We don't know her brother. We don't know what kind of person he is. We don't know if there were conditions attached to the offer, or even if the offer was real. Literally all we know is that, while ranting about Josh on social media, he declared that he would be willing to take her in. He could have been completely full of shit, or maybe going to live with him would have been even worse than staying with Josh. We can't know.

No, we don't.

And we have no idea why she stayed with the molester. 

But I can guarantee you that if my brother (or cousin, since I don't have a brother) had offered ME refuge and safety I'd have taken him up on it, and let HIM figure out how to make it work.

As I said though, "for whatever reason" she chose to stay with the (trying to find a term that's not name-calling) person she married.

[singsingsing]

3 minutes ago, SapphireSlytherin said:

No, we don't.

And we have no idea why she stayed with the molester. 

But I can guarantee you that if my brother (or cousin, since I don't have a brother) had offered ME refuge and safety I'd have taken him up on it, and let HIM figure out how to make it work.

As I said though, "for whatever reason" she chose to stay with the (trying to find a term that's not name-calling) person she married.

Well yeah, but in this hypothetical situation you know your own brother or cousin and have already decided that staying with him would be better than staying with Josh.. You don't know Daniel Keller. He could be an even shittier person than Josh. That's my point. It's kind of hard to judge Anna for not taking her brother up on his offer when we have no idea whether living with him would have been any better, or if the offer was even real.

[SapphireSlytherin]

7 minutes ago, singsingsing said:

cousin

LOL - you don't know my cousin. He'd likely have been in jail, actually, so... 

 

haha

[FloraKitty35]

Maybe Anna looks at her life and looks at the life of Esther and thinks that comparatively speaking Josh was better to be stuck with than being stuck with Prince John of Zambia.  

[tabitha2]

I don’t guess she would have wanted to live in somebody else’s house and be dependent on them with 4 small children for an indefinite period of time even if her brother  happened to be very supportive or protective or nonjudgmental And she might feel justly it was an imposition on him as well. 

[Fascinated]

At the risk of being repetitive, maybe Anna stayed because she wanted to. She had quite a long time to consider her options. We were not included in any discussions she had with Josh, her family or his family. We have absolutely no idea what her thought process was. Or is.  I just hope she’s happy. And I hope Josh worships the ground on which she walks, for staying. 

[lizzybee]

26 minutes ago, Fascinated said:

 And I hope Josh worships the ground on which she walks, for staying. 

Yes. Yes yes yes. 

[CorruptionInc.]

Leaving your husbands in this cult is not a thing. You don't even get to consider it. You are taught to blindly obey. 

If he cheats, it is the woman's fault. Anna has only been blaming herself for this and was probably thinking the whole time how she could make up for it and make sure he didn't leave her.

[tabitha2]

Within their limits . If your husband tells you he wants you to do something they consider ungodly like have a threesome or watch porn as well as clearly illegal things a women may and I think are supposed say no and try to prevent/ dissuade him as it would be abetting the sinful act. 

[BlackSheep]

Another way to look at it: Josh might be a lot more miserable than Anna. She’s living the fundie dream. She got her husband back, their family is intact, and she can remain the fully-dependent wife and child-bearer that she was raised to be, within an extended family that is doing well financially.

Meanwhile, Josh has been publicly outed for committing multiple molestations, for looking at porn, and for seeking (and maybe finding) extra-marital relations. He lost his career and any politcal hopes that he may have had, and yet it’s still his responsibility to keep earning money for his growing brood. He’s back in a marriage that, based on his actions, didn’t meet all of his needs. He’s surely being closely watched by Anna, his parents, and his church/cult. One wrong move - or something that looks like a wrong move - and the press will be all over him again. His marriage and family are intact, and his church and siblings and adoring fundie fans have forgiven him, but his public image - which is so important to the Duggars - will remain “molester and general scumbag”.

[JordynDarby5]

I do wonder what options she had if any at the time. Didn't the Duggars move her into their home and she remained their until Josh left Jesus Jail? Was she ever alone at any point after Josh was outed? I really can't see JimBob letting Josh or Anna be alone whether at TTH or at their house in the early days after the scandals broke. I could see him convincing Anna to come stay with them while Josh was in Jesus Jail using the help she'd get with the kids and be around other people. But also as a way to make sure she isn't around anyone who would encourage her to leave or alone that she might consider it on her own. That she doesn't reach out to family who left the fold. But make sure she's always around Duggars or like minded people. Did JB try to convince her to stay base on the perks? A house, money and help with her kids? Remind her the evils of divorce? Suggest how hard it would be for her to raise them on her own? If she called someone well who would she call? Her parents who didn't want her to leave her husband, the Duggars who didn't want her to leave her husband? Would any of her friends listen or would they encourage her to stay? Would she have been able to call Daniel and talk to him? Did Anna have anyone to talk to who would listen who would be unbiased or wouldn't blame her for Josh's actions? Did anyone blame her for what Josh did? If so does she believe that it was her fault or does realize that's a load of crap? Does she really believe or does she not know nothing else since she was raised. Did she want to leave? Or is she stuck and trying to make the best of it?  Did she really ever have the option of leaving? Or staying with anyone else but the Duggars? Or Daniel? Or staying in the house by herself?  If so would she have made different decisions? Maybe I'm wrong but how hard is it to consider leaving when your surrounded by everyone who doesn't want you to do so.   

[nokidsmom]

Lots of interesting takes on the reasons Anna may have stayed.  Or (maybe) wanted to leave.

LIke @FascinatedI didn't see anything that indicated that Anna wanted to leave Josh.  Even with Daniel Keller's offer to take her in, there was no response from her or the Duggar family to this, at least in public.   Daniel may have been sincere, he may have just been spouting off because he was (understandably) angry over his BIL's behavior.  Who really knows.

In any case, she stayed and my feeling on this was that she loved him.  Just my feeling, I could be wrong.  There may have been a lot more going on behind the scenes but we don't know.  During Joshley's stint in Jesus Jail, IIRC she did say she wanted things to be "as they were before".   My take is she wanted the Josh she thought she married back.   She certainly seemed to be in emotional pain, which was understandable.

She stayed but I am not sure she's happy.  @BlackSheep raised some interesting points.  Anna may be living the dream as a right proper fundie wife who remained faithful, kept her family intact and has remained in the good graces of her family and in-laws for doing so. Maybe that was the best option, then again maybe there was no question/choice in what she was going to do.  However, she can't unlearn what she now knows about her husband, as much as she may try.  A number of years after the Joshgates, another baby later, maybe she is finding that things haven't quite gone back to the way they were before.  Josh may be behaving but there's now that little bit in her that is not the same.  Then again, denial is a powerful thing.

[Evangeline]

I feel like Anna did tell us why she stayed: because divorce would be worse. She may or may not be happy, she may or may not love Josh, but those things don't matter. She believes divorce would harm her, Josh, and her children more than anything else he's done. This is 100% in line with her family's beliefs. 

[Glasgowghirl]

I think Anna ultimately decided to stay because she still loved Josh and hoped things would change, like a lot of people do when they discover their partner cheated. She has been raised to believe that marriage is for life and cheating is the woman's fault. 

While I think the thought maybe have crossed her mind to leave him after discovering he cheated, she probably didn't want to move again with her kids after just moving from Washington and as well meaning as her brother was she isn't that close to him and he probably couldn't have supported her and four kids for long. He also only said it publicly and he didn't directly contact her.

I do hope for all their sakes they are happy but Josh will eventually slip up again either because he hasn't had proper counselling or just because he doesn't care about his family. Maybe eventually their marriage will fail but she probably doesn't want the stigma of being divorced fundie.

[Four is Enough]

I hoped like crazy that Anna would leave Josh, but i truly never expected it to happen. Think about it. Here's her husband, that she married with a COVENANT11!!! She'd be breaking the covenant if she left him!

Besides, BABEEZ! If they're separated, she can't get any more BABEEZ! and She Wants BABEEZ!

Not only that, a flawed Josh gives her a PROJECT! And who doesn't love a project! She can either "win him without a word" or make his life a living hell by reminding him daily that she's praying for all his transgressions.

And STATUS..... her status as a married woman, married to a DUGGAR.... fwiw.... that used to carry some weight... and apparently it still does in those circles... her status will only improve if he starts testifying about his travails and how he was SAVED again and how his GODLY woman (can women be Godly?) stood by his side while he was in the depths of darkness...

[viii]

Of course women can be godly. To a fundie girl, being called a "godly woman" is like the highest compliment. 

And she stayed for "whatever reasons"?? Anna had more reasons to stay than to leave. I mean, I know a lot of people see it as a black and white issue and how she should have left, and how did she not leave, etc but from Anna's perceived perspective, she had more reasons to stay than to leave.

[Carm_88]

Honestly, Anna isn't alone in staying in a marriage because she loves him. There are plenty of people in the secular world who aren't getting all that they need from their relationship but that person is their "best friend" and they "love them." Much like these people, Anna may have thought that she couldn't do any better, she didn't want to split up her family, she thinks she can fix him, and so on. 

Anna isn't the first wife to stay in a marriage for the kids and she won't be the last. Add in a cult that stomps on women, religion, don't believe in divorce, 4 kids, and it's a lot. 

I'm going to add in that I'm iffy about Daniel Keller's offer, I feel like it was said at the spur of the moment and he didn't really think about what it would have meant. It's nice to say but realistically, it would take a lot for Anna to be self sufficient. Yep, Josh would have to pay her but her money comes from Jim Bob and if Josh isn't make much at the car lot. What would she get? They quickly put the house in a trust, I fully believe Jim Bob can be shady. 

[AnnEggBlandHer?]

This isn’t specific to Josh and Anna, but I don’t think I would leave my husband if I found out he cheated on me. To me personally, it’s just not an automatic relationship ending transgression. So I don’t think it’s fair to assume that she absolutely would have left if not for the cult. 

That being said, I don’t think leaving ever even occurred to her. She wasn’t raised to think divorce is a possibility and she has been taught that struggles bring you closer to God, and she needed to dig deeper in her faith to get through this and then everything would be fine. She probably felt some level of responsibility that any of it even happened, and she literally knows no other coping mechanism than prayer and blind trust in whatever the men in your life tell you to do. 

 

About her brother...assuming he did contact her privately and offer to take her in, *what if* he said something along the lines of “we’ll help watch the kids while you look for a job.” Pure speculation on my part, but I think Anna would have been terrified of that possibility. Someone else watching her kids, working outside the home, being responsible for her own life? She’d never go for it. 

[freethemall]

Sorry if this is off-topic and has already been discussed but I saw it on the duggars.tumblr blog today and was wondering about it - the picture of Anna with the panda anti-abortion sign and the "fact" of "abortions go down up to 70% when there are people on the sidewalks holding signs". The duggars.tumblr blogger (still Tiffany?) said she cannot/will not fact check it. Has anyone heard this before? Is this just a truly made up assertion? Sounds like total BS to me.