Rules for Hasidic Jewish Summer Camp

[QAF_Rocks]

Friendly Atheist posted a list of rules for a Hasidic Jewish summer camp.

Here's a sample of the fundie craziness:

http://www.patheos.com/blogs/friendlyatheist/2012/06/20/the-summer-camp-rules-for-a-fundamentalist-jewish-sect

Just, ugh. :(

[QAF_Rocks]

More awful rules:

Until what age is a girl allowed singing in front of boys/men?

From the age of 11, a girl may certainly not sing in front of men (or boys over 9). Some Rabbonim are of the opinion that even girls from the age of 6 should avoid singing in front of men. Some are careful even from age 3.

Until what age is mixed swimming allowed?

Halachically, it is absolutely forbidden to arrange for boys over 9 years old to swim with girls that are age 3 and up. Even if the boys are under age 9, once they are over 5, one should strongly avoid having them swim with girls over 3. Moreover, it is highly appropriate that even extremely young boys and girls not swim together, therefore, parents are advised to take boys from 3 onwards to men only pools.

[terranova]

So if a 10 year old boy is drowning, a girl may not rescue him? He should just die? I don't get that.

Wouldn't it be easier just to have seperate summer camps?

[Mind UR own uteress]

sounds like fun

[darkplumaged]

So if a 10 year old boy is drowning, a girl may not rescue him? He should just die? I don't get that.

It makes no sense, particularly in light of the Jewish teaching that life, health, and safety must supersede law and custom. Maybe they don't among super-crazies. :roll:

I would really like to know what extremists like these think would happen if a girl rescued a boy from drowning, or even accidentally bumped into a boy on a crowded bus. Seriously, I'm asking anyone who has an idea: what are they afraid of? Spiritual impurity? Divine retribution?

[CanadianHippie]

So if a 10 year old boy is drowning, a girl may not rescue him? He should just die? I don't get that.

Wouldn't it be easier just to have seperate summer camps?

Silly, if a 10 year old boy is drowning, there are no females around because he'll be at the men's only pool. Otherwise he might be aroused by the 3 year old girls swimming in their clothes.

[Arete]

Saving a life supersedes keeping any other laws from my understanding of Judaism. I'm sure one of the FJ Jewish members can verify. The rest is any kind of religious fundementalism in a nutshell. Just the usual suspects out for their regular exercise. :roll:

[alaeangelorum]

Rule 21 is bizarre - eg a boy over bar mitzvah age (that's 13 right?) can't be alone with a girl over 3. I didn't know 4 year olds were such a temptation...

[Conuly]

Rule 21 is bizarre - eg a boy over bar mitzvah age (that's 13 right?) can't be alone with a girl over 3. I didn't know 4 year olds were such a temptation...

Well, given the allegations of molestation that are finally coming to light, you might not be too far off the mark here.

[Hevcoh]

So if a 10 year old boy is drowning, a girl may not rescue him? He should just die? I don't get that.

Wouldn't it be easier just to have seperate summer camps?

The girl may rescue a drowning boy of any age. The in need of help is about other activities. Saving a life is more important than not touching the opposite gender. That said, in chassidic circles an adoptive mother may not touch her adopted son over the age of 7.

The summer camps are practically seperate. There are financial and logistical reasons for having them in the same location, but kids don't really mix with the opposite gender. They even eat in different sides of the cafeteria, at least at the Breslev and Chabad camps my kids/nephews went to.

[Hevcoh]

More awful rules:

There was a big scandal in Israel a few months ago when religious soldiers in the IDF walked out without permission from an event where a female soldier was singing. In the national religious school my nephews attend, they have all the classes with girls, except PE and music, because they are not supposed to listen to girls sing. It's kind of funny when you consider that their school has an all girl rock band and the boys routinely attend their concerts.

[pomology]

So if a 10 year old boy is drowning, a girl may not rescue him? He should just die? I don't get that.

Wouldn't it be easier just to have seperate summer camps?

Honestly, I'm surprised they don't. They should. What gross rules. (Although, there would probably be men at the girls' camp because they need a Godly male Rabbi to make sure that everything is up to religious code--there obvs is no need for women at a boys' camp, though).

[Hevcoh]

Honestly, I'm surprised they don't. They should. What gross rules. (Although, there would probably be men at the girls' camp because they need a Godly male Rabbi to make sure that everything is up to religious code--there obvs is no need for women at a boys' camp, though).

Oh, but if there would be no women, who would cook and do laundry? You don't dare to think it'd be the men!

[pomology]

Oh, but if there would be no women, who would cook and do laundry? You don't dare to think it'd be the men!

Well, they'd probably have the girls and boys camps right next to each other and they'd ship the food into the boys' camp and the laundry out.

[rachelsmith1989]

Well, given the allegations of molestation that are finally coming to light, you might not be too far off the mark here.

That, and there was also a rule stating that, for transportation rules, a man over the bar mitzvah age (9 or 13) couldn't be in a car alone with a girl over the age of 3. The opposite genders apply too.

If this is so, what about family members? Like a father/daughter or mother/son? Are they exempt from this rule? It just seems too extreme...

[Hevcoh]

That, and there was also a rule stating that, for transportation rules, a man over the bar mitzvah age (9 or 13) couldn't be in a car alone with a girl over the age of 3. The opposite genders apply too.

If this is so, what about family members? Like a father/daughter or mother/son? Are they exempt from this rule? It just seems too extreme...

Yes, immediate family members are exceptions, provided they are not step-or adopted family members. My brother will not stay alone with my daughters, because they are adopted.

[bananacat]

Wow, if a boy starts raping because he hears a female child singing, he has gigantic mental issues that need professional help. This is all so ridiculous and simply a way to isolate and control women. It has nothing to do with sexuality and everything about obedience and limitation. Any society that wouldn't let me do a fun activity with my nephew is not something I would ever want to be part of.

[adidas]

It makes no sense, particularly in light of the Jewish teaching that life, health, and safety must supersede law and custom. Maybe they don't among super-crazies. :roll:

I would really like to know what extremists like these think would happen if a girl rescued a boy from drowning, or even accidentally bumped into a boy on a crowded bus. Seriously, I'm asking anyone who has an idea: what are they afraid of? Spiritual impurity? Divine retribution?

The women aren't allowed near men on the bus.

gothamist.com/2011/11/14/is_that_hasidic_bus_company_still_o.php

[Esther]

Saving a life supersedes keeping any other laws from my understanding of Judaism. I'm sure one of the FJ Jewish members can verify. The rest is any kind of religious fundementalism in a nutshell. Just the usual suspects out for their regular exercise. :roll:

Yes, even Orthodox Jews can break the Shabbos rules of not working etc. if a life is in danger. These people are simply fringey fundamentalists.

[gardenvarietycitizen]

Well, given the allegations of molestation that are finally coming to light, you might not be too far off the mark here.

Speaking of molestation, though... reading about yichud as related to cars in this post reminded me of some of the talk going on about case of Rabbi Nechemya Weberman. (He's the guy accused of molesting a girl starting at age 12, which made the regular news in a bigger way than usual when some of his supporters put up posters all over Brooklyn maligning the victim).

He had the girl in for "counseling" in his private office, and drove her places in his car. So while some supporters were posting all over the internet about how upstanding and religiously strict this guy was, other people did immediately point out, oh yeah? What about all his massive yichud violations?

...which, regardless of how I feel about those rules, you gotta admit it was a pretty big contradiction. You'd think a guy like him should follow those basic things if he's going to claim to be so religious!

But yeah, as for 3 year old girls, there are groups who hold that girls should be completely tzanua (modestly dressed) to adult standards by 3, so they put tights on the girls and require long sleeves by age 3. The two other common opinions among the very very strict are 6 and 9, or various combinations for different specific clothing issues.

Separate from that I've always been interested to see that the fundie Christians who go all out for long skirts (no calf length for them, no no!) never seem to care about elbows. They all happily wear short sleeve t-shirts.

[fakepigtails73]

Wow, if a boy starts raping because he hears a female child singing, he has gigantic mental issues that need professional help. This is all so ridiculous and simply a way to isolate and control women. It has nothing to do with sexuality and everything about obedience and limitation. Any society that wouldn't let me do a fun activity with my nephew is not something I would ever want to be part of.

No kidding!

[sea_gale]

I think if you teach boys that four year old girls are voluptuous Jezebels that need to be covered lest they tempt men to sin, they are more likely to view them as arousing. Many Orthodox laws seem like they're designed to be overly strict, to avoid people slipping up in borderline cases. But taking it that far in the case of a little girl who doesn't look much different from a little boy is ridiculous.

[Little_Eyes]

Yeah, I've wondered at that, too. I remember JB trotting out some verse to explain why they all jogged in jeans (and workout pants wouldn't be better? Oh, wait, guess they'd defraud... :roll: ) Anyway, are not elbows the knees of the arm, for lack of a better expression? I can see some pastor using that argument to say they ought to be covered, as well...

But it brings up how sick fundies can be about issues of being defrauded, especially on the level that it might even be remotely possible to be defrauded by a little child, who is not a sexual being, in any way, shape or form. You want to worry about being defrauded by someone like the J'slaves, fine, that's your deal, but a four year old? They're kids.

[pomology]

I think if you teach boys that four year old girls are voluptuous Jezebels that need to be covered lest they tempt men to sin, they are more likely to view them as arousing. Many Orthodox laws seem like they're designed to be overly strict, to avoid people slipping up in borderline cases. But taking it that far in the case of a little girl who doesn't look much different from a little boy is ridiculous.

That's exactly how Orthodoxy (and much of Jewish law in general works). For example, how "Don't cook a kid in it's mother's milk" (or maybe it's lamb--I don't remember) is interpreted to mean: Don't eat meat and dairy together or eat dairy within hours of having eaten meat or eat them on the same plate or use the same plate for both dairy and meat or cook them in the same pots etc. etc. Generally, I don't have a problem with it, except in cases like this, where it clearly just imposing fucked up sexual mores.

[lexiloumarie]

I was always taught that covering and modesty (along with yichud, fasting, praying, etc) were started early as a way of practice. That way you'd be used to it, and less likely to sin when you became a bar/bat mitzvah. Because there a lot of little boys wearing tallit kattan, well before they're of age. However, I doubt anyone in Orthodox circles would say otherwise.

Wow, if a boy starts raping because he hears a female child singing, he has gigantic mental issues that need professional help. This is all so ridiculous and simply a way to isolate and control women. It has nothing to do with sexuality and everything about obedience and limitation. Any society that wouldn't let me do a fun activity with my nephew is not something I would ever want to be part of.

I think it's a little closer to the Duggars views on things being "defrauding". Mental purity and all that. :angry-screaming: