Rules for Hasidic Jewish Summer Camp

[Hevcoh]

Every adult , say in their 60's that grew up Orthodox and are now part of my Reform community say that its gotten way way way outta hand. That it was never like this when they were growing up.

My grandfather was from a Satmar Chassid background. Chassids have been like this for a long time, but they were marginal for the most part, at least in the Western countries. With the increasing popularity of Chabad in the Disapora and the general higher birth rate of haredim and chasids they are way way more visible. Because so many people leave regular Orthodoxy for more lax branches of Judaism, the haredim become the Orthodox. Not everywhere, though. We are also seeing an increasing number of Modern Orthodox youth, who are taking back the word "Orthodox" from frums.

[2xx1xy1JD]

My grandfather was from a Satmar Chassid background. Chassids have been like this for a long time, but they were marginal for the most part, at least in the Western countries. With the increasing popularity of Chabad in the Disapora and the general higher birth rate of haredim and chasids they are way way more visible. Because so many people leave regular Orthodoxy for more lax branches of Judaism, the haredim become the Orthodox. Not everywhere, though. We are also seeing an increasing number of Modern Orthodox youth, who are taking back the word "Orthodox" from frums.

Ironically, the Pill increased the relative strength of the more extreme movements. Once upon a time (ie. prior to 1960), there wasn't much difference in birth rates between different groups of Jews.

More recently, though, non-Orthodox Jews have married later and had lower birth rates. Meanwhile, groups that shun birth control have continued to grow, and are in fact growing at a faster rate because they are no longer dealing with war, starvation, illness and other factors that would have reduced family size in the past.

Although I have my quibbles with it, here's a chart that has made the rounds. It shows how much demographics alone are increasingly skewing ultra-Orthodox. [My quibbles are that this is just a projection, because we haven't in fact had 4 generations following this pattern. Instead, if you look back in time, you see trends and shifts that nobody predicted.]

http://www.simpletoremember.com/vitals/ ... -graph.htm

[Hevcoh]

Ironically, the Pill increased the relative strength of the more extreme movements. Once upon a time (ie. prior to 1960), there wasn't much difference in birth rates between different groups of Jews.

More recently, though, non-Orthodox Jews have married later and had lower birth rates. Meanwhile, groups that shun birth control have continued to grow, and are in fact growing at a faster rate because they are no longer dealing with war, starvation, illness and other factors that would have reduced family size in the past.

Although I have my quibbles with it, here's a chart that has made the rounds. It shows how much demographics alone are increasingly skewing ultra-Orthodox. [My quibbles are that this is just a projection, because we haven't in fact had 4 generations following this pattern. Instead, if you look back in time, you see trends and shifts that nobody predicted.]

http://www.simpletoremember.com/vitals/ ... -graph.htm

I completely agree with you on it being a projection only, and I've seen this chart before. I think one of the problems with this is that it only considers American data, and does not consider the move to and from ultra orthodoxy, and disregards a definition change in the secular and Reform circles about who is Jewish. It is a thought provoking chart, nevertheless.

Here one of the concerns is that the haredi and Arab populations have a lot higher birth rate than secular Jews. I am being asked all the time why I have so many kids when I'm not religious (as in Orthodox) and I keep replying that it's my contribution to balancing the Ultras by raising many science believing, open minded, moderately secular Jews.

[GeoBQn]

Yes. It doesn't have to be a definite life-and-death thing - if there is a situation where there's a reasonable possibility of irreversible harm in the event of a delay, you go.

[The irony, of course, is that I had to scream at hubby to get him to go to the hospital on a Jewish holiday when he finally admitted that he was seeing hundred of floaters in his eye. Doctors are the WORST patients!]

Chotchkes - please tell me you stopped being friends with these people. That's just nosy and rude.

A couple of weeks ago, I went to a workshop on addressing domestic violence from a Jewish perspective. One of the barriers to observant women receiving help is that there isn't enough awareness that an abusive relationship is a pikuach nefesh situation--there is absolutely no predicting when the abuse is going to escalate to serious injury or death. Observant women need to be told that it's ok to be driven in a car on Shabbat if that's the best time for escape. It's ok to call a domestic violence hotline on Shabbat if that is the only time you can call safely. (Shalva, the Jewish DV organization in Chicago, keeps their hotlines open 24-hours including Shabbat.) It's ok to stay in a women's shelter where they don't keep kosher. I think the old Yiddish saying needs to come back, "Better a Jew without a beard than a beard without a Jew."

[Ralar]

Re the OP:

I read over the whole PDF. It's the guidelines put out by Lubavitch for their camps. There are different opinions, even within the Orthodox world, for many of the questions addressed.

Here, tots and preschoolers attend the same camp, but they have separate camps once kids are school-age. Lubavitch sleepaway camps usually have separate sessions for boys and girls. The swimming pool in the Lubavitch community center near me has separate hours for men and women. They still put out the guidelines, though, because it's a worldwide movement and in some places (like the former Soviet Union, or in smaller Jewish communities in general) it may not be as feasible to run fully separate camps.

The full PDF document makes it pretty clear that they are giving general guidelines, and provide info on when and how to consult a rabbi for specific situations (such as helping a camper with special needs).

Lubavitch advocates modest dress from age 3, even though it isn't strictly mandatory until later, for education purposes. The idea is that if a 3 yr old gets used to doing something, they will continue to do it as they get older, but if you try to introduce rules later, it's harder.

The transportation rules in the document discuss only private vehicles, where a male and female may be secluded together. It doesn't say anything about public transit, which is used by Lubavitchers.

My daughter has attended Camp Gan Israel, a Chabad day camp, for the past 7 summers. They do not follow those rules and I have never seen that handbook. This summer my daughter will attend a Reconstructionist (Jewish) sleep away camp in addition to a couple weeks at Camp Gan Israel. She loves CGI, but we're not Orthodox and I want her to also experience a more liberal Jewish lifestyle.

[icecreamycakeycake]

Thanks :) I've heard that had I broken it, it would have healed faster. Which is probably true.

It sometimes gets sore when the weather changes, but the worst thing is the psychological FREAK OUTS I have if I step funny and feel it start to roll. I was supposed to get PT for it, but couldn't afford it. :? I've been really really worried that the pregnancy ligaments loosening would screw it the hell up again...

What made me laugh when I said "uh no, i like where I go, I like the mikveh lady, and i'm happy there" i got "stop making excuses". Uh? excuses? huH? It was pretty funny because as a Reform Jew, something like going to the mikveh monthly just isn't done.

I had a level 3 sprain (what ever the worst level is), and the DR said the same thing, "you wish it was broken". I didn't get PT either, and I had that mild pain for almost a year, and I couldn't sitindian style cris cross applesauce for a very long time because it rolled my ankle into a bad position. It will get stronger and heal but that ligament will never feel the same.

[SisiL78]

Some pretty interesting stuff.

It must be tough for any woman to leave an abusive relationship, especially when they are financially reliant on their husband. I've seen a few cases where women were encouraged to seek counseling and go to therapy with their husbands, as if abuse could be worked out. But, generally I've never seen anyone actually ostracized due to divorce etc.... I've seen a few daughters mysteriously return home with their kids to their parents house (oftentimes the parents still have lots of their own kids at home) and nothing is really said. I guess that its usually due to abuse or some other untenable situation within the marriage. Jews, on a cultural basis, seem to rarely talk about these things. There's an old joke about whispering the name of a disease lest the evil eye bring it down on you etc... I guess the same goes for divorce and abuse too.

[SisiL78]

I had a level 3 sprain (what ever the worst level is), and the DR said the same thing, "you wish it was broken". I didn't get PT either, and I had that mild pain for almost a year, and I couldn't sitindian style cris cross applesauce for a very long time because it rolled my ankle into a bad position. It will get stronger and heal but that ligament will never feel the same.

Its awesome that you go to the Mikveh and don't let the labels interfere with your practice and you do what you feel is right for you :clap: . I hate when i get asked what kind of Jew I am! I'm Jewish!!! I go to an Egalitarian synagogue but you'll find me shul hoping with friends to reform and orthodox too. I am not a fan of services, my ADD can't take it! But, it seems like there is too much focus on labels.

[Hevcoh]

My daughter has attended Camp Gan Israel, a Chabad day camp, for the past 7 summers. They do not follow those rules and I have never seen that handbook. This summer my daughter will attend a Reconstructionist (Jewish) sleep away camp in addition to a couple weeks at Camp Gan Israel. She loves CGI, but we're not Orthodox and I want her to also experience a more liberal Jewish lifestyle.

Chabad is a movement with the goal to make Jews more Jewish. They will reach out to seculars and less religious Jews, and will do everything not to scare the less religious away. My kids went to a Chabad school when we lived in Hungary, and while these rules weren't stated anywhere, they were adhered to in both the school and their summer camp. The school had a dress code with no elbows and knees showing for either gender from the first year of gan on. The nursery kids could have short sleeves. The camp requested modest clothing, not otherwise specified, but if the kid went to the school, they expected the same dress code.

That said, they had absolutely no issue with a gam man enrolling his kids in their school or camps. They knew we were nominally observant, and they always respected that. Kids from Chabad families were required to adhere to rules that mine weren't.

[countressrascal]

I went to an Orthodox summer camp when I was a child, early '70, we never had those type of rules. The girls camp was on one side of the lake and boys on the other. We got together every day for services and regilous school, best part of summer camp (8 weeks) was that we did not have to dress up for sevices and sit around inside an apartment on Shabbat, no activities but we were allowed outside.

[ilovetchotchkes]

I went to an Orthodox summer camp when I was a child, early '70, we never had those type of rules. The girls camp was on one side of the lake and boys on the other. We got together every day for services and regilous school, best part of summer camp (8 weeks) was that we did not have to dress up for sevices and sit around inside an apartment on Shabbat, no activities but we were allowed outside.

Hell, I've heard of secular camps where the boys and girls were across the lake and separated just for liability sake. But there wasn't a dress code. Or rules of conduct that said you can't touch your 7 year old adopted brother.

[countressrascal]

Hell, I've heard of secular camps where the boys and girls were across the lake and separated just for liability sake. But there wasn't a dress code. Or rules of conduct that said you can't touch your 7 year old adopted brother.

We had cute little camp uniforms-skirts and blouses with ties. Had wear closed toed shoes and socks. One piece swim suits and had to wear PJ's to bed. I never heard of the rules that this camp had. I need to talk to my SIL, who is still Orthodox and her children left for summer camp last week. She did not say anything about strict rules, only that she was looking forward to 6 weeks of peace and quiet.

[2xx1xy1JD]

Chabad is a movement with the goal to make Jews more Jewish. They will reach out to seculars and less religious Jews, and will do everything not to scare the less religious away. My kids went to a Chabad school when we lived in Hungary, and while these rules weren't stated anywhere, they were adhered to in both the school and their summer camp. The school had a dress code with no elbows and knees showing for either gender from the first year of gan on. The nursery kids could have short sleeves. The camp requested modest clothing, not otherwise specified, but if the kid went to the school, they expected the same dress code.

That said, they had absolutely no issue with a gam man enrolling his kids in their school or camps. They knew we were nominally observant, and they always respected that. Kids from Chabad families were required to adhere to rules that mine weren't.[/quote

This isn't a handbook that would ever be shown to parents. It's clearly designed for those who run the camps.

I sent my kids to Lubavitch day camps when they were younger. They are open to Jewish kids from any level of religious observance, so they purposely design them to have a minimal amount of rules. From a campers' perspective, they see that tots may be together, but that they have separate boys and girls groups for preschoolers, and separate sites for older kids. Boys and girls have separate swim times. With the basic structure in place, the campers can do what they like. It was the same with food: the camp provided all meals and snacks, so they didn't have to worry about making sure that the kids were bringing kosher lunches. IME, campers were allowed to wear whatever they liked, although the staff was expected to follow the Lubavtich dress code. They will hire non-Lubavitch lifeguards (I was offered a job there as a teen), but again, it would have been only girls and maybe little boys that I would have been supervising.

In terms of personal observance, I've seen a range among even very frum Jews. Part of the reason that you see organizations put out guidelines is because they see a need to do so. In other words, if someone is saying "summer is no different", you can bet that it's because people are acting as if the regular rules don't apply when they go on vacation. For example, I've seen Satmar Hasidim staying in the same condo building as us at Mont Tremblant, and men and women (modestly dressed) were using the pool together.

[contrary]

okay, well i really thought that nothing i read here at FJ could shock me, but that bit about a mother not being able to touch her 4 year old son, if he is adopted?

that is just upsetting the hell out of me.

There is NO WAY that my nearly-four-year old could ever comprehend the idea that she couldn't get a hug or a lap-sit from momma. Or be held when she's tired. Or comforted. Or tickled, or given a zzrbt.

There is just no planet on which ANY child could understand that without some serious fucked-upedness ensuing.

Not to mention, the mother! Dear God, there is just NO WAY I could NOT touch one of my four year old children.

Okay, and so this hypothetical four year old boy? I am assuming he also cannot be touched by a sister? or aunt? or female cousin? (that he is not related to by blood, so let's just assume here that he has been adopted into this hypothetical family and is related to no one by blood).

So, is it correct to say that this child, after the age of four, will NEVER experience a nurturing, maternal, female touch?

God, this is upsetting me.

[2xx1xy1JD]

There are different opinions among contemporary Orthodox sources.

Rabbi Moses Feinstein took a lenient view that if the adoption took place when the child was young, the child is treated as a biological child for the purposes of rules that allow close relatives to be exempt from the general rules against touch by the opposite sex and being alone with a person of the opposite sex. The Lubavitcher Rebbe took a stricter position.

One unfortunate consequence of the stricter position is that I don't see a lot of advocacy for adoption or foster care in some circles. In my city, there is a separate child protection agency for Jewish kids, but there is also a chronic shortage of foster homes for them. We have close friends with a foster son and they don't observe the restrictions. The Chabad synagogue has been supportive, but it's a situation where they haven't asked what would be permitted in terms of touch, and the rabbi would never offer an opinion if he wasn't asked directly. I do know that I haven't seen notices from Jewish Family and Child Services encouraging people to become foster parents posted up, as I have with some other congregations.

[contrary]

Honestly, for households that DO subscribe to the belief that a mother cannot touch an adopted son over the age of 4, I'd be glad there wasn't an adoption available for them.

I just can't understand how that's not abuse.

[Hevcoh]

Honestly, for households that DO subscribe to the belief that a mother cannot touch an adopted son over the age of 4, I'd be glad there wasn't an adoption available for them.

I just can't understand how that's not abuse.

To be honest, the youngest age I've heard was 7, not 4. It does make a difference, however small. It's still crazy crazy. That is, however, a great reason why Orthodox families tend to adopt girls if they adopt.

That said, Orthodox Judaism is not very adoption friendly. The whole issue of conversion--whether the child can be converted at all--is an issue. And when it comes to fostering... oy. In Israel the communal reaing of children without parents is still the ideal over fostering, or at least in our experience it is.

[contrary]

I can understand that...on some level. At least on the same level i can understand anything we discuss here on FJ.

If any group is not down with adoption, better to own it, than to adopt and then treat your child badly.

(says the mother who actually had to apologize to her children yesterday, for being a shrieky shrew.)

[Conuly]

The whole issue of conversion--whether the child can be converted at all--is an issue.

But wouldn't Jews primarily adopt Jewish children? I mean, the alternative (outside of Israel, I suppose) is that the kids get shuttled around in foster care and, if lucky, eventually adopted... by non-Jewish families. Is that really better? (Well, I figure from my secular perspective that it's probably moot if the adoption is early enough, but if you're talking about an older child, one who's somewhat observant....)

[2xx1xy1JD]

Honestly, for households that DO subscribe to the belief that a mother cannot touch an adopted son over the age of 4, I'd be glad there wasn't an adoption available for them.

I just can't understand how that's not abuse.

For those that follow these rules, it's no physical contact between adoptive mother and son after age 9, and no physical contact between adoptive father and daughter after age 3. There's no limit on physical contact between parent and child of the same sex. It could be a logical nightmare if, for example, an adoptive mother of a daughter was to pass away when the child was young, since a 4 yr old girl needs physical contact from a parent. I don't know what special exceptions might be given.

I understand some of the logic behind making "fences" so that there is no possibility of impropriety or even the appearance of a problem, but just like some secular zero-tolerance policies, it can go too far and have the effect of depriving kids. The right foster or adoption placement can literally make a life-or-death difference to a child in need.

Conuly - I've seen some rabbis actually advocate adoption of non-Jewish kids, because it avoids certain religious complications (like concern about the child marrying a close relative, or needing to find out of the child was the product of an adulterous relationship). Again, I strongly disagree, because it ignores the needs of the children in need of homes.

[Hevcoh]

But wouldn't Jews primarily adopt Jewish children? I mean, the alternative (outside of Israel, I suppose) is that the kids get shuttled around in foster care and, if lucky, eventually adopted... by non-Jewish families. Is that really better? (Well, I figure from my secular perspective that it's probably moot if the adoption is early enough, but if you're talking about an older child, one who's somewhat observant....)

In my experience... and it's only my experience, the attitude towards non-infant adoption is about the same as in other religious groups: not very popular. The thing is...Jewish infants are hardly ever available for adoption. As soon as a child is perceived as a mamser, the child will not be adopted by religious couples, because they are not Jews. Picking a child in foster care for adoption based on religion is not possible in many countries.

Some Rebbes advocate divorce and remarriage for infertile couples because of the whole complication of adoption.

Older child adoption in Israel is usually international adoption, because simply there ar eno children available for adoption. Parental rights are rarely terminated. There are Jewish orphanages in Ukraine and Russia, and you'd think Jewish parents would adopt from there, but these private orphanages have kids that are not adoptable: if they are registered to be adoptable, they can be adopted by anyone, and the religious community prefers to raise them Jewish.

I'm not 100% sure how many Jewish children are in foster care in the States, but I know that there are Jewish agencies involved with them. And then here... as I said, communal child raring: children's villages, group homes, even kibbutz children's houses seem to be the standard solution.

[Hevcoh]

Conuly - I've seen some rabbis actually advocate adoption of non-Jewish kids, because it avoids certain religious complications (like concern about the child marrying a close relative, or needing to find out of the child was the product of an adulterous relationship). Again, I strongly disagree, because it ignores the needs of the children in need of homes.

There are some pretty good Ask the Rabbe type of Q&A's about adoption and conversion on the Chabad website. They, for one group, are normally pro-adoption, with the assumption of a child of unknown parentage is a non-Jew. Therefore closed adoptions are often preferred.

[VintageJen1984]

Judaism is a religion like any other; it has its good parts and its bad parts. The same faith that possesses inherent beauty also holds sacred a text that requires rape victims to marry their attackers. The cruelty and irrationality are why I do not see any meaningful difference between religions and cults, no matter how much inherent beauty they may have..

And while you're correct that villages in "the old country" were more permissive than today's ultra-Orthodox communities are, Fiddler is hardly an accurate portrayal of the bad old days.

Do the Orthodox practice this??? And if they do, what happens if a woman is raped by more than one man? It just seems really complicated. Even if they think women should never leave the house because of the danger, don't they have to buy groceries, go to synagogue? What if their attacker lives in their house? Please tell me these ultra-fundies don't do this!

[2xx1xy1JD]

Do the Orthodox practice this??? And if they do, what happens if a woman is raped by more than one man? It just seems really complicated. Even if they think women should never leave the house because of the danger, don't they have to buy groceries, go to synagogue? What if their attacker lives in their house? Please tell me these ultra-fundies don't do this!

NO! This is NOT a modern practice in ultra-Orthodox Judaism. All of the "criminal law" portion of the Hebrew Bible ceased to be operational with the destruction of the Sanhedrin around 2,000 years ago.