Rules for Hasidic Jewish Summer Camp

[gardenvarietycitizen]

I was always taught that covering and modesty (along with yichud, fasting, praying, etc) were started early as a way of practice. That way you'd be used to it, and less likely to sin when you became a bar/bat mitzvah. Because there a lot of little boys wearing tallit kattan, well before they're of age. However, I doubt anyone in Orthodox circles would say otherwise.

I think it's a little closer to the Duggars views on things being "defrauding". Mental purity and all that. :angry-screaming:

Yeah. He can get aroused, which is bad enough because it's distracting him from holy thoughts and in particularly bad cases might induce him to masturbate, which is a very serious sin. If he sins, that means SHE has CAUSED him to sin, and that's a really big sin. Out there on the fringes there are those who make a special effort to never look at women (which can make them very rude, but the idea is they are never distracted by the female form at all, so it keeps that mental holiness going).

As far as I know yeah the dressing thing is for training. But the rules about men not being with girls/women of a certain age is a rule on him, and an actual rule, for those following it.

Of course a fascinating topic is why among all the various sins that people are transgressing daily as human beings, the ones involving women's dress are harped on so incessantly, but that's a topic for 130919486 threads...

[rollmeover]

Yes, immediate family members are exceptions, provided they are not step-or adopted family members. My brother will not stay alone with my daughters, because they are adopted.

OMG, as an adoptive mother, that is so heart-breakingly sad to me.

[PennySycamore]

Speaking of molestation, though... reading about yichud as related to cars in this post reminded me of some of the talk going on about case of Rabbi Nechemya Weberman. (He's the guy accused of molesting a girl starting at age 12, which made the regular news in a bigger way than usual when some of his supporters put up posters all over Brooklyn maligning the victim).

He had the girl in for "counseling" in his private office, and drove her places in his car. So while some supporters were posting all over the internet about how upstanding and religiously strict this guy was, other people did immediately point out, oh yeah? What about all his massive yichud violations?

...which, regardless of how I feel about those rules, you gotta admit it was a pretty big contradiction. You'd think a guy like him should follow those basic things if he's going to claim to be so religious!

But yeah, as for 3 year old girls, there are groups who hold that girls should be completely tzanua (modestly dressed) to adult standards by 3, so they put tights on the girls and require long sleeves by age 3. The two other common opinions among the very very strict are 6 and 9, or various combinations for different specific clothing issues.

Separate from that I've always been interested to see that the fundie Christians who go all out for long skirts (no calf length for them, no no!) never seem to care about elbows. They all happily wear short sleeve t-shirts.

[QAF_Rocks]

The girl may rescue a drowning boy of any age. The in need of help is about other activities. Saving a life is more important than not touching the opposite gender. That said, in chassidic circles an adoptive mother may not touch her adopted son over the age of 7.

[SisiL78]

LOL, perhaps knees are more evil than elbows?

I am Jewish and proud of it. And at one point I tried to become more religious. But, I could not get over a few things and one was the whole singing in public malarky. As if my praying or singing in public was going to arouse all these men and I had to be responsible for THEIR lack of self control? I simply was not going to be silenced like that. Now, I sing quite badly so I think there should be a ban on me singing in public, but not for religious reasons.

One thing that drove me nuts was a wedding I went to. Very nice ba'al teshuvah couple and their other ba'al teshuvah friend offered to play violin for processional music. THey had just graduated college and b/c their parents were very against the idea of them being religious they didn't get a cent for the wedding. Anyways, having free processional music by a good violinist was a wonderful gift and then a few days beforehand it was nixed b/c of "worries" from some of the women helping them arrange the wedding that it would be unseemly to have a woman play the violin in mixed company. For goodness sakes! So they had to tell their friend thanks but no thanks and she was hurt and they had no processional music b/c they didn't have a male musician friend who could fill in. The bride and groom were pretty pissed off but they were at the mercy of the older and "wiser" women in the community who went way too far in making sure all rules were followed.

There are ultra fundy Jews that have been seriously over-doing it b/c they feel that its the only way to get the Messiah to come. But, they aren't following the laws when they are making it more restrictive. They are helping to widen the rift between the religious and less religious and secular Jewry and its inexcusable. They are basically making sh*t up in order to pick fights within their own groups and with others. Its a holy version of one-upsmanship plain and simple.

[canela]

...But, I could not get over a few things and one was the whole singing in public malarky. As if my praying or singing in public was going to arouse all these men and I had to be responsible for THEIR lack of self control? I simply was not going to be silenced like that. Now, I sing quite badly so I think there should be a ban on me singing in public, but not for religious reasons.

I've never understood how this can be a one way street. If women's singing voices can "defraud" men (and I've no doubt that some can - just not mine), why don't fundamentalists accept that men's voices can cause feelings of excitement/romance/arousal/lust in women. As a woman, I can tell you that my favorite singer (a male) has been known to make me feel swoony.

Oh wait, I forgot. Women are pure vessels who have no unrighteous feelings or thoughts. Lust is a base emotion we are responsible for causing but cannot ourselves experience.

[SisiL78]

I've never understood how this can be a one way street. If women's singing voices can "defraud" men (and I've no doubt that some can - just not mine), why don't fundamentalists accept that men's voices can cause feelings of excitement/romance/arousal/lust in women. As a woman, I can tell you that my favorite singer (a male) has been known to make me feel swoony.

Oh wait, I forgot. Women are pure vessels who have no unrighteous feelings or thoughts. Lust is a base emotion we are responsible for causing but cannot ourselves experience.

In fact a fundy woman I know has expressed many times that her husband singing prayers turns her on (well at least before they were married) and that she got all hot and bothered when a handsome guy was singing particularly well. And there are always tons of women fawning over the cute Rabbi or Cantor, all the better if he has an amazing voice. I think some women only go when they know a particular guy will be reading Torah. Its not secret that this happens so whether they admit it or not there are women getting all flushed and excited over the "defrauding" male voices.

Way back when these restrictions were only practiced among the lower classes of uneducated Jews in the shtetls. Even then it was with far fewer barriers. Like in Fiddler on the Roof the division between male and female dancing was a rope on the ground, merely symbolic. Now its an 8ft tall trellis at most weddings/gatherings. Whereas my grandpa would remember men and women gathering around the musicians and singing together in the shtetl now the women just listen to the men. Its not just ludicrous but its fracturing and derailing the focus of Judaism from its inherent beauty and turning it into nothing more than a fundy look alike complete with phobias and right wing extremism. Jews helped free slaves and found unions, now the descendents of those same people are voting in politicians who would undue all that work if given the chance. Argh. It makes me so angry!!!

[RR88]

I grew up "learning" this crap in school. I didn't believe in that evil god then, and I don't believe in it now.

[RR88]

Like in Fiddler on the Roof the division between male and female dancing was a rope on the ground, merely symbolic. Now its an 8ft tall trellis at most weddings/gatherings. Whereas my grandpa would remember men and women gathering around the musicians and singing together in the shtetl now the women just listen to the men. Its not just ludicrous but its fracturing and derailing the focus of Judaism from its inherent beauty

Judaism is a religion like any other; it has its good parts and its bad parts. The same faith that possesses inherent beauty also holds sacred a text that requires rape victims to marry their attackers. The cruelty and irrationality are why I do not see any meaningful difference between religions and cults, no matter how much inherent beauty they may have..

And while you're correct that villages in "the old country" were more permissive than today's ultra-Orthodox communities are, Fiddler is hardly an accurate portrayal of the bad old days.

[2xx1xy1JD]

It makes no sense, particularly in light of the Jewish teaching that life, health, and safety must supersede law and custom. Maybe they don't among super-crazies. :roll:

I would really like to know what extremists like these think would happen if a girl rescued a boy from drowning, or even accidentally bumped into a boy on a crowded bus. Seriously, I'm asking anyone who has an idea: what are they afraid of? Spiritual impurity? Divine retribution?

If someone's drowning, that's a life and death situation, and any other religious rules are suspended under the over-riding principle of "pikuach nefesh". I've never seen anything, anywhere that said otherwise. These rules are only about planned swimming times.

Rabbi Moses Feinstein, who was a considered one of the leading Orthodox rabbis in the United States, ruled that accidental contact on public transit wasn't a problem. Some more extreme groups will have buses with separate sections, but it's a pretty recent innovation/craziness.

[ilovetchotchkes]

Every adult , say in their 60's that grew up Orthodox and are now part of my Reform community say that its gotten way way way outta hand. That it was never like this when they were growing up.

[BabyFullOfSin]

How unspeakably cruel. :cry:

So sad for mom and the little boy :(

[guidedbybobafett]

Separate from that I've always been interested to see that the fundie Christians who go all out for long skirts (no calf length for them, no no!) never seem to care about elbows. They all happily wear short sleeve t-shirts.

As someone who is very familiar with the rules of several Orthodox sects and just recently even learned of fundamentalist protestantism (as it were), I am always a little shocked by how lax the Christians seem in comparison. Of course, I think both situations are completely out of hand, but the modesty issues in Jewish communities can be almost all-encompassing in their stringency. In a lot of these Orthodox communities, if your dress is down to your feet but sleeveless that is still a complete and massive violation of the rules of tznius, no matter what.

They just don't know how to do modesty like the Hasids. ;)

[Conuly]

Every adult , say in their 60's that grew up Orthodox and are now part of my Reform community say that its gotten way way way outta hand. That it was never like this when they were growing up.

Well, maybe that's the problem. The reasonable people who weren't all that obsessively observant left for Reform synagogues (or became totally unobservant altogether) and are no longer around to be a mitigating influence on the remainder, who were probably inclined to excess in the first place but held back by the majority being, well, sane.

[ilovetchotchkes]

Well, maybe that's the problem. The reasonable people who weren't all that obsessively observant left for Reform synagogues (or became totally unobservant altogether) and are no longer around to be a mitigating influence on the remainder, who were probably inclined to excess in the first place but held back by the majority being, well, sane.

Makes a LOT of sense, but lemme tell you, none of these people are willing to go back... especially as CRAZY as its gotten.

We spent a weekend w/ a Modern Orthodox, not Hassidic, but Modern Orthodox family I used to know, and lemme tell you.... it was.... surreal. I ended up almost breaking my ankle (tore a ligament badly "only" ) and we COULDN'T USE THE PHONE OR DRIVE TO THE HOSPITAL (they had a neighbor call 911). I now owe $900 to the City of Chicago for ambulance transport because of that cluster fuck and am COMPLETELY soured on the concept of being insanely observant.

[Conuly]

Makes a LOT of sense, but lemme tell you, none of these people are willing to go back... especially as CRAZY as its gotten.

We spent a weekend w/ a Modern Orthodox, not Hassidic, but Modern Orthodox family I used to know, and lemme tell you.... it was.... surreal. I ended up almost breaking my ankle (tore a ligament badly "only" ) and we COULDN'T USE THE PHONE OR DRIVE TO THE HOSPITAL (they had a neighbor call 911). I now owe $900 to the City of Chicago for ambulance transport because of that cluster fuck and am COMPLETELY soured on the concept of being insanely observant.

*hugs*

Ouch! And none of this constituted an exception to the rule against driving?

Are you still on speaking terms with them?

[ilovetchotchkes]

*hugs*

Ouch! And none of this constituted an exception to the rule against driving?

Are you still on speaking terms with them?

*laughs* oh no. Oh no no no no no.

There were other non religious issues going on,- as in, religion aside, they were fucking crazy. My inlaws and us- we're on the same family cell plan to save $- we just give em our share of the bill. The wife, called me SO MUCH, she ran through our ENTIRE allocation of minutes in the first 15 days of the month. MIL was LIVID and so was I. Told her to stop calling to text instead because I had no minutes. And then there was the weekly asking us for $100 for the electric bill, or $200 for the phone bill. And the expectation that I'd somehow pull GOBS of money out of my ass to fund a business venture of hers. I got to feeling like I was really used.

The response to my civil reasonable request to NOT call but text instead? a bunch of weepy texts and phone calls saying "ARE YOU MAD AT ME?!?!?!?!?".

This was JUST as I found out about girl fetus' existence and I simply SIMPLY could not deal with their DRAMAZ anymore. So... I pulled a total dick move and changed our phone numbers and blocked her on FB and email after one last email telling her I didnt' want any contact w/ her anymore.

[2xx1xy1JD]

Makes a LOT of sense, but lemme tell you, none of these people are willing to go back... especially as CRAZY as its gotten.

We spent a weekend w/ a Modern Orthodox, not Hassidic, but Modern Orthodox family I used to know, and lemme tell you.... it was.... surreal. I ended up almost breaking my ankle (tore a ligament badly "only" ) and we COULDN'T USE THE PHONE OR DRIVE TO THE HOSPITAL (they had a neighbor call 911). I now owe $900 to the City of Chicago for ambulance transport because of that cluster fuck and am COMPLETELY soured on the concept of being insanely observant.

Oy. We deal with these situations a lot, because hubby is the doctor on the street and our religious neighbors will knock on the door and ask for his opinion on whether a bump on the head or a rash is serious enough to warrant a trip to the hospital immediately. A few times, he's had to be pretty forceful with the "now means NOW, not 12 hours from now." The actual rules, though, say that if it's serious enough to warrant breaking Shabbat, it's serious enough to allow you to drive to the hospital.

There's truth to the idea that splintering into movements caused a rightward shift. I often say that where the mainstream is Orthodox, Orthodox is mainstream. In the United States, only around 11% of Jews are Orthodox. It's not a religion of the masses, but of a fairly select group that increasingly defines itself as being distinct from the other 89%. In contrast, my parents grew up in Montreal, where the overwhelming majority of synagogues are Orthodox. Their Orthodoxy, though, included almost everyone - even my Communist grandmother. Montreal's oldest synagogue, the Spanish and Portuguese, is one of the most progressive Orthodox synagogues. It's the same with South African Jewish community, and with the Sephardic Jewish community.

There's an issue of people not knowing the actual rules and texts well enough to know when they can be lenient. There's also an issue with legitimate lenient opinions being left out, so that there's a false belief that someone who follows them isn't "really" religious. I've also seen the newly-religious and going overboard phenomenon.

[Conuly]

Oy. We deal with these situations a lot, because hubby is the doctor on the street and our religious neighbors will knock on the door and ask for his opinion on whether a bump on the head or a rash is serious enough to warrant a trip to the hospital immediately. A few times, he's had to be pretty forceful with the "now means NOW, not 12 hours from now." The actual rules, though, say that if it's serious enough to warrant breaking Shabbat, it's serious enough to allow you to drive to the hospital.

Do the actual rules say "Err on the side of caution"? Because that seems like what they should say. :shock: Head injuries - not something to wait on!

[ilovetchotchkes]

Oy. We deal with these situations a lot, because hubby is the doctor on the street and our religious neighbors will knock on the door and ask for his opinion on whether a bump on the head or a rash is serious enough to warrant a trip to the hospital immediately. A few times, he's had to be pretty forceful with the "now means NOW, not 12 hours from now." The actual rules, though, say that if it's serious enough to warrant breaking Shabbat, it's serious enough to allow you to drive to the hospital.

There's truth to the idea that splintering into movements caused a rightward shift. I often say that where the mainstream is Orthodox, Orthodox is mainstream. In the United States, only around 11% of Jews are Orthodox. It's not a religion of the masses, but of a fairly select group that increasingly defines itself as being distinct from the other 89%. In contrast, my parents grew up in Montreal, where the overwhelming majority of synagogues are Orthodox. Their Orthodoxy, though, included almost everyone - even my Communist grandmother. Montreal's oldest synagogue, the Spanish and Portuguese, is one of the most progressive Orthodox synagogues. It's the same with South African Jewish community, and with the Sephardic Jewish community.

There's an issue of people not knowing the actual rules and texts well enough to know when they can be lenient. There's also an issue with legitimate lenient opinions being left out, so that there's a false belief that someone who follows them isn't "really" religious. I've also seen the newly-religious and going overboard phenomenon.

Yeah. I think you are absolutely right here. Because i've spoken to a few Orthodox folks online since and the consensus was "WTF?!?!?! are you KIDDING ME?! " Never mind that my husband is a Reform convert, so TECHNICALLY according to the absolute letter of the law, he's not "kosher" and would have been the equal of having the dang ambulance driver drive me. (I'm a Reform convert too, but there's a possible family connection that I can't prove so even if they were playing it EXTRA safe...).

These people were nuts though. It wasn't good enough that I was going to a kosher mikveh every month, since it was a CONSERVATIVE one, it was NOT GOOD ENOUGH and they endlessly nagged me about going to the Orthodox one. (the mikveh lady is MO, no questions there, I've never met a conservative Jew who followed the family purity laws to the point where they won't shake hands w/ the opposite sex)

[Conuly]

These people were nuts though. It wasn't good enough that I was going to a kosher mikveh every month, since it was a CONSERVATIVE one, it was NOT GOOD ENOUGH and they endlessly nagged me about going to the Orthodox one.

Yeah, that was gonna convince you.

Good riddance to them. I hope your ankle healed, I know from experience that they can be trickier than most people realize.

[ilovetchotchkes]

Yeah, that was gonna convince you.

Good riddance to them. I hope your ankle healed, I know from experience that they can be trickier than most people realize.

Thanks :) I've heard that had I broken it, it would have healed faster. Which is probably true.

It sometimes gets sore when the weather changes, but the worst thing is the psychological FREAK OUTS I have if I step funny and feel it start to roll. I was supposed to get PT for it, but couldn't afford it. :? I've been really really worried that the pregnancy ligaments loosening would screw it the hell up again...

What made me laugh when I said "uh no, i like where I go, I like the mikveh lady, and i'm happy there" i got "stop making excuses". Uh? excuses? huH? It was pretty funny because as a Reform Jew, something like going to the mikveh monthly just isn't done.

[2xx1xy1JD]

Do the actual rules say "Err on the side of caution"? Because that seems like what they should say. :shock: Head injuries - not something to wait on!

Yes. It doesn't have to be a definite life-and-death thing - if there is a situation where there's a reasonable possibility of irreversible harm in the event of a delay, you go.

[The irony, of course, is that I had to scream at hubby to get him to go to the hospital on a Jewish holiday when he finally admitted that he was seeing hundred of floaters in his eye. Doctors are the WORST patients!]

Chotchkes - please tell me you stopped being friends with these people. That's just nosy and rude.

[ilovetchotchkes]

Yes. It doesn't have to be a definite life-and-death thing - if there is a situation where there's a reasonable possibility of irreversible harm in the event of a delay, you go.

[The irony, of course, is that I had to scream at hubby to get him to go to the hospital on a Jewish holiday when he finally admitted that he was seeing hundred of floaters in his eye. Doctors are the WORST patients!]

Chotchkes - please tell me you stopped being friends with these people. That's just nosy and rude.

I did. :) It was the first unhealthy friendship that I nipped in the bud and it actually felt really empowering to not deal with them anymore instead of you know, the passive aggressive tactic of letting it die on its own.

[2xx1xy1JD]

Re the OP:

I read over the whole PDF. It's the guidelines put out by Lubavitch for their camps. There are different opinions, even within the Orthodox world, for many of the questions addressed.

Here, tots and preschoolers attend the same camp, but they have separate camps once kids are school-age. Lubavitch sleepaway camps usually have separate sessions for boys and girls. The swimming pool in the Lubavitch community center near me has separate hours for men and women. They still put out the guidelines, though, because it's a worldwide movement and in some places (like the former Soviet Union, or in smaller Jewish communities in general) it may not be as feasible to run fully separate camps.

The full PDF document makes it pretty clear that they are giving general guidelines, and provide info on when and how to consult a rabbi for specific situations (such as helping a camper with special needs).

Lubavitch advocates modest dress from age 3, even though it isn't strictly mandatory until later, for education purposes. The idea is that if a 3 yr old gets used to doing something, they will continue to do it as they get older, but if you try to introduce rules later, it's harder.

The transportation rules in the document discuss only private vehicles, where a male and female may be secluded together. It doesn't say anything about public transit, which is used by Lubavitchers.