Smudging Ceremonies...

[Sinister Rouge]

Just wondering, does anybody know what is the general feeling about non-Native people practicing private smudging ceremonies? Background info - I consider myself an atheist, but am also quite deeply spiritual in a non-religious sense. I do have an abiding love and respect for aboriginal spiritual practices, and have taken part in smudging ceremonies in the past which I have found to be very spiritually meaningful and fulfilling. I guess my concern is of cultural appropriation, maybe? I know there was an uproar over non-Aboriginal women holding "Blessingways" instead of baby showers, so would this be the same thing?

[velly]

Oi I'm probably in a lonely silly corner but... I don't care either way about the whole 'cultural appropriation' thing. I am a third aboriginal, a third black and a third italian (this apparently makes me hispanic btw) and I love seeing people RESPECTFULLY learning from other people's cultures and even participating in them. I guess since I was raised VERY multicultural I see things like that. Respect is what matters the most to me because well, seeing someone making fun of another person's culture is something that bothers me GREATLY but... if it's done with a real interest and real fondness, eagerness to learn and experience I think 'cultural appropriation' is a WONDERFUL THING*.

* this is, of course, as long as 'cultural appropriation' means what I think it means... I don't live in the US and the terms might be used differently!

[Witsec7]

Lots of cultures 'smudge' not just the NAs. I consider myself a mystical atheist so my corner is particularly lonely :D I'm good with it. I'd prefer to honor all the gods and worship none.

[Conuly]

I am a third aboriginal, a third black and a third italian (this apparently makes me hispanic btw) and I love seeing people RESPECTFULLY learning from other people's cultures and even participating in them.

So, what, do you have three parents or something?

[Wolfie]

So, what, do you have three parents or something?

Well, I suspect that she has more than 3 grandparents, and great grandparents, ect....

[Noon]

For me the big question is this: How much are you truly investing in learning about these ceremonies before engaging, and is your participation sponsored by a person or persons with indigenous roots?

In other words:

Are you speaking with indigenous persons, learning about their tribes' unique spiritual practices and making a real effort to understand their traditions...then behaving respectfully if asked to join said ritual (or gracefully accepting it if you're told that you're interest is welcome–––but your presence during a sacred time is not appropriate)?

Or are you inviting yourself into religious traditions that have suffered tremendous violations from outside cultures, adopting it as your own when convenient or 'cool,'

and running around with a bunch of non-indigenous persons periodically throwing out canned statements about 'Mother Earth' and what 'all tribes' believe?

(Hint: You don't want to be part of group number two!)

Long story short: Don't ask us what you should do. Ask members of your local indigenous community, and follow their lead. These are peoples' spiritual beliefs, which are a part of cultures with rich traditions that need to be respected as much as any other community's. You wouldn't start dispensing Hindu, Christian, or Muslim rites from an About.com guide, would you? :naughty:

[julie paradox]

Well, I suspect that she has more than 3 grandparents, and great grandparents, ect....

Yebbut, you'd have to go back quite a way to get a number divisible by 3.

/me gets out pencil and paper...

[Conuly]

Yebbut, you'd have to go back quite a way to get a number divisible by 3.

/me gets out pencil and paper...

It doesn't matter how far back you go, you'll never get a number divisible by 3. However far back you go, the only prime factor you'll encounter is 2 - not 3.

2 parents, 4 grandparents, 8 great-grandparents, 16 gggrandparents, 32... well, you get the point. If we're doing binary it counts out 10, 100, 1000, 1000 and so on. Never any 3 (uh, 11). You can't be 1/3 anything.

Edit: Of course, that's assuming we're just talking biologically. Upon reflection, I suppose it's possible to be 1/3 anything if what you're doing is, say, attributing equal weight to the heritage of both adoptive parents and your birth mother (if you're adopted), or to both your parents' cultures and also your home culture where you were raised, that sort of thing.

But that's not really how most people would describe themselves, at least, not without an explanation.

[lilwriter85]

I live in New Mexico and some Native Americans here are ok with non Natives do smudging ceremonies. I know one NA woman who smudges houses for her non-NAs all the time.

[julie paradox]

ah, duh, unique prime factorisation (I haven't done this for over 20 years).

All factors of powers of two are themselves powers of two, ie not 3.

Maybe it's great-grandparents 3,3,2 - that's approximately a third. Or great-greats 5,5,6, or great-great-greats 11,11,10.

/derail

[snarkbillie]

It doesn't matter how far back you go, you'll never get a number divisible by 3. However far back you go, the only prime factor you'll encounter is 2 - not 3.

2 parents, 4 grandparents, 8 great-grandparents, 16 gggrandparents, 32... well, you get the point. If we're doing binary it counts out 10, 100, 1000, 1000 and so on. Never any 3 (uh, 11). You can't be 1/3 anything.

Edit: Of course, that's assuming we're just talking biologically. Upon reflection, I suppose it's possible to be 1/3 anything if what you're doing is, say, attributing equal weight to the heritage of both adoptive parents and your birth mother (if you're adopted), or to both your parents' cultures and also your home culture where you were raised, that sort of thing.

But that's not really how most people would describe themselves, at least, not without an explanation.

If you had a parent that was 1/2 black and 1/2 white and then another parent who was Hispanic...you could be 1/3 of something...right? I never understand this stuff. I'm like fractions of things so I just say I'm white and ignore it.

[Witsec7]

Teh maths is killing me :o

[Coconut Flan]

Not quite. The person would be 1/4, 1/4, and 1/2.

I was tending to think the 1/3 was perhaps due to a language issue.

[velly]

Yebbut, you'd have to go back quite a way to get a number divisible by 3.

/me gets out pencil and paper...

Since you ask... My mother's parents and my granfather's mother were Italian while my grandfather's father was wayuu and black, the son of a black man and a wayuu aboriginal. My father is mostly Spaniard and italian (there was a spaniard in there somewhere but we're not entirely sure WHERE as you know, sometimes the records get lost) but we DO know that said spaniard came in before my grandfather's father thus why I rarely count the Spaniard side. Sorry for not giving you the whole she-bang and exact percentages of my heritage.

[velly]

Since you ask... My mother's parents and my granfather's mother were Italian while my grandfather's father was wayuu and black, the son of a black man and a wayuu aboriginal. My father is mostly Spaniard and italian (there was a spaniard in there somewhere but we're not entirely sure WHERE as you know, sometimes the records get lost) but we DO know that said spaniard came in before my grandfather's father thus why I rarely count the Spaniard side. Sorry for not giving you the whole she-bang and exact percentages of my heritage.

If you want to make it exact I'd say I'm mostly italian, black and wayuu but I am also of spaniard heritage... my point still stands... respect in ceremonies and things are cool.

[snarkbillie]

Not quite. The person would be 1/4, 1/4, and 1/2.

I was tending to think the 1/3 was perhaps due to a language issue.

Ah! I get it now. Thanks. My head gets spinny when we talk about stuff like this. In fact, I still can't understand the phrase "second cousin twice removed"......removed from what?! :lol:

[Godlesspanther-2-]

I have participated in smudging, sweats, peyote, pow-wows, sundances, and other tribal ceremonies.

I am not a believer, I consider it polite to accept an invitation to do so and respect the tradition of the people. For myself I would not consider it to be genuine for me to appropriate those rituals.

Yes, I do politely accept the invitation of Native ceremonies and not those of Mormons, Fundies, Moonies, etc. Is this biased? Yep.

I don't know the mathematical formula for that.

[pomology]

Ah! I get it now. Thanks. My head gets spinny when we talk about stuff like this. In fact, I still can't understand the phrase "second cousin twice removed"......removed from what?! :lol:

Don't know if you genuinely want to know the answer, but removed speaks to generations. So, my mom's first cousins are my first cousins once removed. Their children are my second cousins because we are in the same generation. My second cousins' children are my second cousin's once removed, but would be my cousin's third cousins because they are in the same generation.

Sorry to threadjack.

[ilovetchotchkes]

":mnk81kmo]I have participated in smudging, sweats, peyote, pow-wows, sundances, and other tribal ceremonies.

I am not a believer, I consider it polite to accept an invitation to do so and respect the tradition of the people. For myself I would not consider it to be genuine for me to appropriate those rituals.

Yes, I do politely accept the invitation of Native ceremonies and not those of Mormons, Fundies, Moonies, etc. Is this biased? Yep.

I don't know the mathematical formula for that.

I think its a little bit different. Maybe because we're in danger of losing these cultures, and they're so important and so in danger of being lost. Even if you're not of the culture, the fact that you will remember them is significant.

[snarkbillie]

Don't know if you genuinely want to know the answer, but removed speaks to generations. So, my mom's first cousins are my first cousins once removed. Their children are my second cousins because we are in the same generation. My second cousins' children are my second cousin's once removed, but would be my cousin's third cousins because they are in the same generation.

Sorry to threadjack.

Thanks! :D

[Witsec7]

Don't know if you genuinely want to know the answer, but removed speaks to generations. So, my mom's first cousins are my first cousins once removed. Their children are my second cousins because we are in the same generation. My second cousins' children are my second cousin's once removed, but would be my cousin's third cousins because they are in the same generation.

Sorry to threadjack.

My family addresses generations and consanguinity in the same manner. On forums I won't distinguish since it's not relative to most folks. If I say favorite cousin, she's a first. Which reminds me I should call today.

We can all learn from the sweats and ceremonies of others if we are open. And accepting the invites with grace and gratitude is a fine thing.

[lilith]

Lots of cultures 'smudge' not just the NAs. I consider myself a mystical atheist so my corner is particularly lonely :D I'm good with it. I'd prefer to honor all the gods and worship none.

Sometimes I would swear you are a female, American version of my father.

[Phyllis Styne]

OP, as long as you do this privately, don't go public and don't present yourself as a native person and try to sell your services, smudge smudge smudge. It's good for the soul. Thats from one of my better friends who is a NA church member (peyote) and 100 FBI, fulllblooded Indian.

[Guest Anonymous]

Re: cultural appropriation. The word 'appropriation' implies taking something for yourself and is therefore different from standard multicultural interaction. I see it as the difference between going to your friend's Bar Mitzvah even though you are not Jewish and engaging in 'Torah observant', Lina-style, head-covering, DIY, faux Judaism.

[Sinister Rouge]

Oh, it's definitely a private thing, although occasionally I have done it in small groups of other like-minded individuals of various cultural backgrounds, but always with deep respect for the ceremony. I'm not imposing myself into any Aboriginal communities or anything like that, or claiming to be First Nations or even to share any specific beliefs or practices. I think that's why I was wondering whether it is actually okay to smudge even though I'm about as "biologically" non-Native as you can get (biologically in quotes because I believe we are one, and on a strictly biological level I know there is no difference, we are all Homo Sapiens after all), I guess I was just wondering if it would be terrible that a first generation British Canadian, all blonde and blue-eyed, who freckles even in the shade and has no Native background whatsoever, smudges herself and her house and teaches her kids why, and how, about the relationships that are being acknowledged, and where the ceremony comes from. I do have personal spiritual beliefs that align with much of what I have come to learn of Aboriginal spirituality(spiritualities)and I have profound respect for First Nations cultures and beliefs. I am heartsick when I hear/read/learn about the hardships faced by such a beautiful, wise people; I yearn for the day our nation wakes up and sees the incredible value of our First Nations citizens and that Native and non-Native communities can (should) work together for mutual benefit.All this to say, I would never dream of intentionally disrespecting their traditions or culture in any way, let alone blatantly exploiting it. Smudging feels right, I feel a connection through that, and I guess I feel like that's the right reason to do it, I just don't want to be doing it if I shouldn't be.

Also, experiencedd: "I'd prefer to honor all the gods and worship none." TRUTH! I love that.