Theocracy in Israel

[RR88]

Something's gotta give. One of these days, Israelis will be forced to deal with the population bomb that is the ultra-religious public, who by and large dodge the draft, do not work for a living, and attempt to push theocracy on their fellow citizens:

vosizneias.com/post/read/107234/2012/06/02/jerusalem-in-photos-hundreds-of-charedim-block-jerusalem-junction-to-traffic/all_comments

[Glass Cowcatcher]

Only one of very many issues that nation needs to "deal with."

[gardenvarietycitizen]

Ooh. Thanks for the link.

I've had to wonder for a while now (and I'm not alone, there' various MO people in forums wondering too) how if in 2012 Israel were to become a complete theocracy run by halacha, how certain modern functions of a state would happen. Sure, there's stuff that would end up permitted due to the potential need to save a life, and what not, but not EVERYTHING.

So it's an interesting mental exercise, whether you're religious or not, to think of how some rules/loopholes/fences/whatever might be used.

Obviously the extreme out there "no secular education!!!" thing would have to die (at least for some large chunk of people), but that's not strictly religious. (This is in contrast to say, the Amish - I can't imagine them having a full country of their own, given their more strict beliefs on education.)

Back to the original topic though yeah I have to agree that the big population demographic bomb isn't only the situation with the occupation and non-Jewish population. The ultra-religious bomb is a serious issue too. And of course, so much of the extremism is a relatively new thing - once again, for many people it's a "we didn't grow up this way, this extreme, but we're restricting our kids" and so the "previously stored capital" so to speak, be it educational/experience capital or just plain money (of the "the in-laws will buy us an apartment" variety) is going to dry up.

[RR88]

Only one of very many issues that nation needs to "deal with."

This is a message board where we snark on fundies, correct?

[Glass Cowcatcher]

This is a message board where we snark on fundies, correct?

[Guest Anonymous]

For the first time, the Israeli state has recognised and funded a Reform rabbi, Rabbi Miri Gold, (*gasp* a woman!) So there are some tiny steps in the right direction in terms of religious diversity.

[RR88]

Funding rabbis (of any stripe) is not a step in the right direction. There's a bumper sticker that says, "Medinat halakha, halkha hamedina." Loosely translated, it means, "Under theocracy, the state will vanish."

[Guest Anonymous]

Funding rabbis (of any stripe) is not a step in the right direction. There's a bumper sticker that says, "Medinat halakha, halkha hamedina." Loosely translated, it means, "Under theocracy, the state will vanish."

Is that a 'all state involvement with religion is wrong' thing or a 'Israel should focus on its other religions' thing? Or something else?

A state can support religious institutions without being a theocracy. The recognition of Miri Gold could be a major move against the Orthodox/ultra-Orthodox stranglehold on Israeli politics.

[RR88]

It's my fed-up reaction to the Israeli government's bipolar behavior. Israel (and perhaps Lebanon and Jordan) is a secular state in many ways, but it spends too much of its money funding religious institutions. I'm of the opinion that governments shouldn't "support", fund, encourage (or discourage) religion, but that's a personal view.

The recognition of Miri Gold looks nice to those who are concerned about creeping theocracy, but ultimately it's symptomatic of the same problem. Also, I think that "Orthodox/ultra-Orthodox" is a misnomer. Most Orthodox Israelis serve in the military, support their families responsibly, and do not attempt to push their religious lifestyle on secular Israelis. They are not in the same category as those ultra-Orthodox Israelis who dodge the draft, refuse to get jobs, spit on women/throw shit-filled diapers at secular Jews/start riots, and deny the legal existence of the government while being all-too-happy to accept its assistance and support.

[Cran]

A state can support religious institutions without being a theocracy. The recognition of Miri Gold could be a major move against the Orthodox/ultra-Orthodox stranglehold on Israeli politics.

Isn't the Anglican Church at lest partly supported by the state? In Germany, too, the state pays a good deal to the churches in wages, contributions to social services they run etc., and last time I checked, Europe was pretty free of theocracies, minus the little spot on the map called Vatican.

Funding the "normal" rabbis would probably make them more wide-spread and accessible, to form a counter-balance to fundiedom.

[saraelise]

Isn't the Anglican Church at lest partly supported by the state? In Germany, too, the state pays a good deal to the churches in wages, contributions to social services they run etc., and last time I checked, Europe was pretty free of theocracies, minus the little spot on the map called Vatican.

Yep, this is normal in most of Europe. Denmark's official religion (which is not synonomous with the only recognised religion) is the Lutheran church.

[Guest Anonymous]

RR88, until now, Israel has accepted Orthodox Judaism as the only form of Judaism. If you convert Reform or Conservative then you are a non-Jew and your civil rights are impinged upon (re marriage, burial, etc). I, therefore, stand by my choice of words.

[RR88]

I'm happy being the odd one out in this case. :)

[Glass Cowcatcher]

The series of tubes ate the post I was trying to make earlier.

I was trying to respond, I think this is just one of many areas that the government of Israel is turning a blind eye to, that I think will be to their detriment in the future.

This article shows the strains between the different aspects of Judaism.

There's the whole Gaza issue. Don't want to sidetrack the thread, but, I think the world is just getting tired of the problem.

There's the double standard when it comes to nuclear weapons. The intents of other countries aside, I think it reflects very badly on Israel that they expect their neighbors to submit to treaties and weapons inspections, but largely refuse to do the same.

There's the very dodgy human rights record.

The problems with the Israeli government do not exceed those of many other countries. However, SO much of US policy, and modern Christian theology, is designed around "protecting Israel," that I find the contradictions especially frustrating.

[2xx1xy1JD]

There's the double standard when it comes to nuclear weapons. The intents of other countries aside, I think it reflects very badly on Israel that they expect their neighbors to submit to treaties and weapons inspections, but largely refuse to do the same.

Well, it does all come down to the intentions of the countries. Israel hasn't threatened to wipe other countries off the map.

[Personally, I'd love to see the Iranian nuclear program dismantled from within. I think that the world, including and especially the United States, fucked up in a major way 3 years ago by failing to support the Iranian people as they were standing up to a murderous regime. I know, CNN didn't think the story was as interesting as 24/7 coverage of Michael Jackson's death. I fear that the average American has no idea how Iranians may be different from Arabs, or that Iran is full of young people who grew up after the revolution and now want a government that is truly democratic, not anti-western, not corrupt and not insane.]

[RR88]

Hell, most Americans think that the Iranians ARE Arabs.

[lilah]

It's funny, I am a reform Jew and descended from Chassidics who immigrated to the US and canada and yet I know very little about how Orthodox and Ultra-orthodox live.

How do the Charedi make a living if they do not work? Is the isreali welfare system that good?

[Beeks]

It's funny, I am a reform Jew and descended from Chassidics who immigrated to the US and canada and yet I know very little about how Orthodox and Ultra-orthodox live.

How do the Charedi make a living if they do not work? Is the isreali welfare system that good?

Often the women will work so the men can learn full time. The state systems are also pretty good.

[xDreamerx]

Yep, this is normal in most of Europe. Denmark's official religion (which is not synonomous with the only recognised religion) is the Lutheran church.

Yes, at least in England.

[gardenvarietycitizen]

Also quite a few newer Chareidi adherents (new to it entirely - yes, they have their share of BTs) and even people who have identified that way for some generations in their family but only recently slid quite THAT far to the "right" have money coming in from parents and in-laws, some with higher educations others in well-established careers that didn't need it to get started at the time. But with exponential growth in families, tons of people definitely point out that a crisis is going to happen at some point. There are various programs now trying to increase work participation but it's all tied in with the question of army service too which is ideological so it can get complicated - think of it as sort of like endless educational deferments for the Vietnam war, if you were not able to apply for work unless you'd served in the war already OR hit upper middle age.

Meanwhile England has the Anglican Church, but doesn't it also have secular marriage? The issue in Israel is that there's religious marriage only - so if you're Jewish, you better be qualified to marry by the rabbinate (meaning the rabbinate accepts that both partners are Jewish, and it can be a sticky issue), otherwise you can have a Christian marriage or Muslim marriage, but if you're secular or the state doesn't agree that you're Jewish and you want to marry Jewish, you have to do it abroad. Tons of people would go to Syria, etc. Once married abroad it's valid in Israel though, as far as I know (hence the popularity of marriage abroad).

[2xx1xy1JD]

Also quite a few newer Chareidi adherents (new to it entirely - yes, they have their share of BTs) and even people who have identified that way for some generations in their family but only recently slid quite THAT far to the "right" have money coming in from parents and in-laws, some with higher educations others in well-established careers that didn't need it to get started at the time. But with exponential growth in families, tons of people definitely point out that a crisis is going to happen at some point. There are various programs now trying to increase work participation but it's all tied in with the question of army service too which is ideological so it can get complicated - think of it as sort of like endless educational deferments for the Vietnam war, if you were not able to apply for work unless you'd served in the war already OR hit upper middle age.

Meanwhile England has the Anglican Church, but doesn't it also have secular marriage? The issue in Israel is that there's religious marriage only - so if you're Jewish, you better be qualified to marry by the rabbinate (meaning the rabbinate accepts that both partners are Jewish, and it can be a sticky issue), otherwise you can have a Christian marriage or Muslim marriage, but if you're secular or the state doesn't agree that you're Jewish and you want to marry Jewish, you have to do it abroad. Tons of people would go to Syria, etc. Once married abroad it's valid in Israel though, as far as I know (hence the popularity of marriage abroad).

I think you meant to say Cyprus - trust me, Israelis are NOT going to Syria!

One of the odd side-effects of this policy of not having civil marriages in Israel but recognizing those performed abroad is that Israel was fairly quick to recognize same-sex marriages performed in Canada.

[gardenvarietycitizen]

I think you meant to say Cyprus - trust me, Israelis are NOT going to Syria!

Ha!!! Yes indeed that is what I meant to say! Considering that I probably made the slip of the tongue based on listening to the radio news while typing that, it makes it all the more obviously crazy, too.

Major brain flatulence up in here today, sorry about that...

[Eclipse]

Also quite a few newer Chareidi adherents (new to it entirely - yes, they have their share of BTs) and even people who have identified that way for some generations in their family but only recently slid quite THAT far to the "right" have money coming in from parents and in-laws, some with higher educations others in well-established careers that didn't need it to get started at the time. But with exponential growth in families, tons of people definitely point out that a crisis is going to happen at some point. There are various programs now trying to increase work participation but it's all tied in with the question of army service too which is ideological so it can get complicated - think of it as sort of like endless educational deferments for the Vietnam war, if you were not able to apply for work unless you'd served in the war already OR hit upper middle age.

Meanwhile England has the Anglican Church, but doesn't it also have secular marriage? The issue in Israel is that there's religious marriage only - so if you're Jewish, you better be qualified to marry by the rabbinate (meaning the rabbinate accepts that both partners are Jewish, and it can be a sticky issue), otherwise you can have a Christian marriage or Muslim marriage, but if you're secular or the state doesn't agree that you're Jewish and you want to marry Jewish, you have to do it abroad. Tons of people would go to Syria, etc. Once married abroad it's valid in Israel though, as far as I know (hence the popularity of marriage abroad).

Yes, England has secular marriage performed in a civil ceremony.