Fundieism done right

[chiccy]

So, I found this cool community in Israel called Bat Ayin. They're mostly first- or second-generation-religious Orthodox Jews with Hasidic leanings. They are involved in cooperative organic agriculture and are into holism and herbal wisdom, though not to the exclusion of traditional medicine. Scholarship and the arts are encouraged. Personal differences in religious expression and interpretation seem to be tolerated, at least up to a point. Everyone there seems pretty blissfully happy.

Anyone else have examples of fundieism done right?

[Guest Anonymous]

Is the wiki entry on this group accurate? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bat_Ayin

[deelaem]

Ah, but how are the women treated?

[Alecto]

Yeah, except for that whole trying to bomb schools bit...

[freejoytoo]

Fundieism done right is an oxymoron.

[holierthanyou]

Fundieism done right is an oxymoron.

Exactly.

[SpeakNow]

Fundieism done right is an oxymoron.

QFT

[chiccy]

Is the wiki entry on this group accurate? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bat_Ayin

I don't know.

Ah, but how are the women treated?

They are leaders in the community and seem to have a very vibrant, vocal, outspoken role--although "role" makes it sound like they're second-class citizens in the first place, which it doesn't seem that they are at all. Unless you think Orthodox Judaism in itself makes women second-class citizens, which is definitely arguable no matter the community.

[chiccy]

Yeah, except for that whole trying to bomb schools bit...

It looks like there were exactly four people involved in that. Citing it as a condemnation of the whole community seems like sloppy judgment...unless you have evidence to suggest that the community at-large in fact condoned the plot.

[Witsec7]

Fundieism done right is an oxymoron.

This^

[Elle]

Fundieism done right is an oxymoron.

Yup. The core of fundyism is women being submissive to men. That's wrong. Period.

[2xx1xy1JD]

My daughter was "twinned" with a girl from that community when she had her Bat Mitzvah in Israel this past December. We met the family for dinner and they were great. The mother is an artist, and the late father had been a musician. It's a very artsy, spiritual and somewhat hippie-like community, with a mix of Breslov, Chabad and other Orthodox.

[Guest Anonymous]

I don't know.

What research led you to conclude that this is an example of 'fundieism done right'? What exactly do you know about the group, beyond the hype on their own website?

[SimplyMe]

This^

^ This again. I think anything taken to an extreme is unhealthy- fundieism is an extreme and no matter how much supposed "good" they do, there is undoubtably some level of bad in there too. My guess, in this case, is women are probably second class citizens.

[2xx1xy1JD]

How do we define "fundieism"? Does it connote something other than simply being religious?

Depending on the answer, I may question whether or not Bat Ayim is actually "fundie".

[valsa]

How do we define "fundieism"? Does it connote something other than simply being religious?

I lean towards FSTDT's definition:

A usually religious person or entity characterized by one or more of the following: an extreme lack of rationality, fondness of logical fallacies, repeated use of emotional appeals, rigid adherence to Bronze Age mythology, endorsement of pseudoscientific nonsense, opposition to the First Amendment, bigotry and discriminatory attitudes towards minority groups, belief that certain children's media is the work of Satan, and propensity to post Bible verses instead of valid argument.

It should be noted that one can be religious--even a fundamentalist--but not actually attain the vaunted status of "fundie," which needs that special touch only people fitting stereotypical caricatures can provide. Additionally, religion is technically not even a pre-requisite for this, although blind adherence to its ideologies (and those of politics) is perhaps the #1 source of fundies in the universe. Rigid, arrogant, "know-it-all-and-confidently-force-it-on-everyone-else" authoritarian strains of both amplify the propensity to fundyism, while more moderate, "this-seems-like-a-good-idea-but-might-be-wrong, so-let's-not-be-total-jackasses-about-it" varieties can keep it in check or even undermine it.

Basically, an extremist (not always religious) with a little extra crazy in the mix = fundie.

[2xx1xy1JD]

I can think of folks that are extremely religious as part of more mystical sects - which some would characterize of lack of rationality, rigid adherence to a Bronze Age religious doctrine and pseudoscientific - and who also restrict their own media viewing, who also follow elements in those teachings that require them to love and/or help everyone.

If someone is doing disaster relief and is actually being helpful instead of just preachy, I don't really care if they believe that their actions could be the final piece in a puzzle that will finally perfect the earth to the point that the Messiah can come riding in from wherever he is hiding and raise the dead.

[valsa]

I can think of folks that are extremely religious as part of more mystical sects - which some would characterize of lack of rationality, rigid adherence to a Bronze Age religious doctrine and pseudoscientific - and who also restrict their own media viewing, who also follow elements in those teachings that require them to love and/or help everyone.

If someone is doing disaster relief and is actually being helpful instead of just preachy, I don't really care if they believe that their actions could be the final piece in a puzzle that will finally perfect the earth to the point that the Messiah can come riding in from wherever he is hiding and raise the dead.

That's why being a fundie needs the extra crazy part.

[2xx1xy1JD]

What qualifies as "extra crazy"?

For example, if someone expresses a sincere belief that a 92-year-old rabbi in Brooklyn did not actually die in 1994, contrary to all medical evidence and the fact that there are people still around who were involved in the burial, but that he is still physically alive but hidden from view in some sort of Elvis-like way, and that zombie-rabbi is about to reveal that he is actually the Messiah, would that qualify as extra crazy?

[valsa]

What qualifies as "extra crazy"?

:roll: It's subjective, which is why there's no cut-and-dry definition to "fundie".

For example, if someone expresses a sincere belief that a 92-year-old rabbi in Brooklyn did not actually die in 1994, contrary to all medical evidence and the fact that there are people still around who were involved in the burial, but that he is still physically alive but hidden from view in some sort of Elvis-like way, and that zombie-rabbi is about to reveal that he is actually the Messiah, would that qualify as extra crazy?

Personally, though that is a little crazy, unless he starts trying to force me to believe this, I wouldn't consider him fundie for that alone. Mentally ill/delusional, maybe.

[2xx1xy1JD]

In that case, I'd say that Bat Ayin may be very spiritual and religious, but it's not truly fundie.

[deelaem]

I lean towards FSTDT's definition:

Basically, an extremist (not always religious) with a little extra crazy in the mix = fundie.

Wow, where did you find ZsuZsu's personality profile? :lol:

[margiebargie]

I lean towards FSTDT's definition:

Basically, an extremist (not always religious) with a little extra crazy in the mix = fundie.

Great definition. That's exactly what I have in mind when I think of fundies.

I dream of a day when irrationality is actually considered a bad thing.

[margiebargie]

So, I found this cool community in Israel called Bat Ayin. They're mostly first- or second-generation-religious Orthodox Jews with Hasidic leanings. They are involved in cooperative organic agriculture and are into holism and herbal wisdom, though not to the exclusion of traditional medicine. Scholarship and the arts are encouraged. Personal differences in religious expression and interpretation seem to be tolerated, at least up to a point. Everyone there seems pretty blissfully happy.

Anyone else have examples of fundieism done right?

Um...the bolded bit kinda makes think of Jonestown.

[2xx1xy1JD]

Um...the bolded bit kinda makes think of Jonestown.

There's no one sect leader. It's a mix of different groups, and the original charismatic leaders of the 4 main groups are no longer alive. It's also not isolated in a jungle - people go in and out all the time.