So Which Of Us Are The Idiots?

[debrand]

dovbear.blogspot.com/2012/05/some-of-posters-at-free-jinger-are.html

I miss all the good threads

Why are people so damn stupid?

I wrote:

A world where everyone just does as they pleases regardless of how it effects the people around them is the world of Sodom.

This does not mean they are sodomites. It means they are selfish, and through their selfishness practice what the Sages called Middos Sdom. For example, Pirkei Avot 5:13: He who says, "What is mine is mine and what is yours is yours"--this is the common type, though some say that this is the type of Sodom

There - and elsewhere - the sin of selfishness is idiomatically refeered to as "the way of Sodom."

My point, simply, is that people need to take each other, and their surroundings into account, rather than selfishly doing as they please. A good rule, no?

In context, my statement was applied to breastfeeding women, who I believe should take the people around them into account, and also to the people around them, who I should believe should take the breast feeding mothers into account.

Both groups, as I said over and over again, should not trample on each others dignity and sensibilities. They should both show respect to each other. A nursing mother should not be asked to leave, and when possible, the nursing mother should attempt to determine the conventions and practices of the place before nursing in public, especially if private options are available.

Yet over on Free Jinger this call for mutual understanding and polite consideration got miscast as follows:

Breastfeeding in public compared to "world of Sodom"

Like I said. People are so damn stupid

[Artemis]

Like I said. People are so damn stupid

AKA 'They dared to call me out on what I said instead of worshipping and bowing low. WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHH

[valsa]

My point, simply, is that people need to take each other, and their surroundings into account, rather than selfishly doing as they please. A good rule, no?

I've had a conversation about this with a Christian before (regarding whether women should walk around naked in locker rooms)

Funny thing was that she preached me not being naked, because it might make other people feel uncomfortable, but didn't think it was applicable when I thought that, in return, she should not pray publically for the same reason.

[gardenvarietycitizen]

Because the religious rules are obviously assumed to be taken as a given?

It's just another example of the false dichotomy of "follow my religious rules, or else you're just completely self-centered, hedonistic, living for the moment, offensive, and will have no meaning in life other than your cheap and fleeting pleasures of the flesh." We should always be sensitive to the religious, always always always.

Meanwhile they want to say, "if ever there's a conflict between two styles of dress or manners, we default to the more restrictive one, because women should always be willing to cover up more than they're used to (it might do them some good!) but never be confronted by people uncovering." And you get your endless slide to the right.

[2xx1xy1JD]

[Raises hand] That would be me. I knew the thread title would get attention - but honestly, I was just floored by the fact that, after attempting to come across as a reasonable guy, he would use phrases like "militantly selfish" and "world of Sodom", when the other poster was simply pointing out that women have the legal right to breastfeed in public and that there are a number of sound practical reasons for a mother to do just that.

He's not even dealing with actual religious rules - it's just his personal feelings of discomfort with the whole idea that a baby may be breastfeeding in the vicinity. It was Orthodox women who were debating with him.

[defrauding]

kb2 briefly mentioned this post in the original thread, but it got lost in the discussion.

I've liked Dovbear's blog in the past, but these posts on breastfeeding are entirely off-base. 2xx1xy1JD already offered a cogent response in her original post, so I'll simply say that his interpretation of middat Sdom strikes me as half-baked. The Sodomites didn't just adopt the "what's mine is mine" attitude described in Pirkei Avot; they also took it to a horrific extreme by refusing to give food or charity to others. (You can find a fuller discussion of the Pirkei Avot passage and related Talmudic passages at Torah.org, among other places.) How on earth does a mother providing sustenance for her child resemble that situation?

[deelaem]

If the blogger didn't mean Sodomite, then why use the term? Why not just say "selfish?" Wait, I know the answer - hyperbole scares people into your viewpoint much more effectively. :roll:

[2xx1xy1JD]

If you use ridiculous hyperbole, expect someone to call you on it.

I also had a good laugh when he assumed that most ladies' rooms have lounges with sofas.

[Elle]

"the nursing mother should attempt to determine the conventions and practices of the place before nursing in public, especially if private options are available."

I'll take my nursing child to a bathroom stall to eat while on a toilet if she takes her hamburger into the next stall to avoid offending vegans who think eating meat is cruelty. I doubt anyone told Mary to go hide in a corner to feed Jesus in shame because it was something no one wanted to see.

Also people preaching on street corners make me uncomfortable, but I just cross the street and continue on my way. Because this world is shared with people who do things I may not like and I'm adult enough to acknowledge their right to do something I don't like as long as I'm not being forced to watch or participate. If breastfeeding or two men holding hands offends her so much, she can look away.

[DarkAnts]

I am not, I have an IQ that is above 150. :whistle: I am going to have to say that the fool that wrote the passage is the idot.

Brest feeding is a perfectly natural event. It is in NO WAY A SEXUAL PROCESS. It is a beautiful process where the mother is able to provide food for her baby. The nipple is not showing while its in the babies mouth. If the mom wants to cover up then thats her decision. Its in no way required for breast feeding. Its time we stopped looking at this natural process as a shameful process.

[gardenvarietycitizen]

I am not, I have an IQ that is above 150. :whistle: I am going to have to say that the fool that wrote the passage is the idot.

Brest feeding is a perfectly natural event. It is in NO WAY A SEXUAL PROCESS. It is a beautiful process where the mother is able to provide food for her baby. The nipple is not showing while its in the babies mouth. If the mom wants to cover up then thats her decision. Its in no way required for breast feeding. Its time we stopped looking at this natural process as a shameful process.

But... but... but... BOOBS!!!!

Meanwhile, back in Japan in the 1980s on a show みんなのうた ("songs for everyone") which is a program that ran on the national broadcaster NHK at 5PM weekdays, with two music videos for kids, they had a song 「おっぱいがいっぱい」(oppai ga ippai) which means both "there are lots of boobs" and the "the boobs are full," it's a nice song for kids about breastfeeding. You can see it at the URL http://www.dailymotion.com/video/xzqwz_yyyyyyyyy_music (warning: lots of cartoon boobage).

It's animated, but, opens with images of a baby nursing, and the lyrics are sung by a little boy remembering nursing, he sings things like mom's breasts are so soft, I drank from them, my little sister drank from them, they were always full but now they're not, and the milk was so sweet maybe but I can't remember, perhaps when Mom has another kid, they will fill again.

In the interludes, people float around on cartoon boobs in space :)

But point being, this is a kids' show, and the breasts are just about Mom loving and feeding babies.

[DarkAnts]

But... but... but... BOOBS!!!!

Meanwhile, back in Japan in the 1980s on a show みんなのうた ("songs for everyone") which is a program that ran on the national broadcaster NHK at 5PM weekdays, with two music videos for kids, they had a song 「おっぱいがいっぱい」(oppai ga ippai) which means both "there are lots of boobs" and the "the boobs are full," it's a nice song for kids about breastfeeding. You can see it at the URL http://www.dailymotion.com/video/xzqwz_yyyyyyyyy_music (warning: lots of cartoon boobage).

It's animated, but, opens with images of a baby nursing, and the lyrics are sung by a little boy remembering nursing, he sings things like mom's breasts are so soft, I drank from them, my little sister drank from them, they were always full but now they're not, and the milk was so sweet maybe but I can't remember, perhaps when Mom has another kid, they will fill again.

In the interludes, people float around on cartoon boobs in space :)

But point being, this is a kids' show, and the breasts are just about Mom loving and feeding babies.

That is full of awesome, I love it! You dont need to tell a kid that boobies are bad because they cause men to sin. Tell children that nature gave women boobs so they could feed their children.

I was at a museum in Boston a few years ago. A boy and girl were walking through an exhibit that had a picture of the statue David. The boy pointed to the picture and said "Look mom, that man forgot to put on pants". The mothers reply was simply "Why yes he did." The little girl asked her mom if all men forget to wear pants. I did not stick around for the answer. I was busy trying to get to the hallway where I could giggle without interrupting this important conversation. I loved the mothers response. She did not freak out or tell the kids that this was sinful. She kept the conversation to a level where the kids could understand. The children were not old enough to understand that artistes need to see a few naked bodies so they can see and draw muscle groups.

[FlorenceHamilton]

I was born in 1960. Breastfeeding was very rare at that time in the US. My mother was horrified when I was pregnant with my son and told her that I intended to breastfeed. She told me that only animals do that and that the thought of it was disgusting to her. After my son was born, she felt a little bit crowded out of my life when my infant was hungry and wanted nuorishment. So eventually, she allowed herself to stay in the same room as I nursed him. One day, she looked at me and said, "I really missed something, didn't I?" I just smiled. She realized that she had created a huge emotional barrier to the concept of breastfeeding andI think she was pleased that it had come down.

Fast forward 2 years. I had twins. My father was at my house and made a big deal about the need for me to leave the room when I breast fed. I had slightly premature twins who fed frequently. He soon realized tht he was almost completely unable to speak with me at all. So he would come to the edge of the room where I was nursing and look away while asking me a question or sharing a thought. Little by little, he became more comfortable with my presence. Then one day, I was in the living room with the wimminfolk and my dad entered the room without realizing that I was nursing at that moment. He stayed and chatted. I started to get up to leave the room and he said not to bother. That was my dad's moment when he realized that being in the room with a nursing baby was quite different than being in the room where people were having sex or worse, were taking a dump.

Society somehow got all twisted up on this issue. I honestly thougth by the 1990's the whole thing was put to bed. I had become accustomed to seeing women nursing on the little chairs or benches that are scattered in the center of the mall and in parks where children play and such. I am disappointed that the controversy (??) rages on. This is really sick.

[FundiesInMyFamily]

About 10 years ago I had the good fortune to spend 10 days in London. They have a morning show on one of the BBC's similar to the Today show, and go outside to talk with the folk a la Matt Lauer. Anyway, while the 2 journalists were out talking to the crowd, a rather buxom lady took off her shirt and let the girls fly free in front of God and the BBC. You know what happened? Nothing. No one freaked out, no one screamed, fire and brimstone didn't rain down. Nobody cared.

On the same trip, we were in our room getting ready to go out and there was a movie on one of the BBC channels (this was 'regular' tv, not cable or HBO), and I saw another lovely pair of boobies. It struck me because we would never see that on network tv in the states.

This has nothing to do with breastfeeding, just wanted to point out that for all our freedoms, and all the open mindedness we claim to have, Americans can be very squeamish about certain things.

She can call us idiots all she wants, I'd be willing to bet money and boobies that the IQ O' Meter would be on the side of FJ.

[2xx1xy1JD]

About 10 years ago I had the good fortune to spend 10 days in London. They have a morning show on one of the BBC's similar to the Today show, and go outside to talk with the folk a la Matt Lauer. Anyway, while the 2 journalists were out talking to the crowd, a rather buxom lady took off her shirt and let the girls fly free in front of God and the BBC. You know what happened? Nothing. No one freaked out, no one screamed, fire and brimstone didn't rain down. Nobody cared.

On the same trip, we were in our room getting ready to go out and there was a movie on one of the BBC channels (this was 'regular' tv, not cable or HBO), and I saw another lovely pair of boobies. It struck me because we would never see that on network tv in the states.

This has nothing to do with breastfeeding, just wanted to point out that for all our freedoms, and all the open mindedness we claim to have, Americans can be very squeamish about certain things.

She can call us idiots all she wants, I'd be willing to bet money and boobies that the IQ O' Meter would be on the side of FJ.

I've noticed fewer body hang-ups with the Brits. When I got pregnant the first time, I stocked up on pregnancy mags from the UK as well as Canada and the US. The UK ones were the most explicit, as in photos of naked mom while the baby was crowning during a water birth.

[2xx1xy1JD]

I was born in 1960. Breastfeeding was very rare at that time in the US. My mother was horrified when I was pregnant with my son and told her that I intended to breastfeed. She told me that only animals do that and that the thought of it was disgusting to her. After my son was born, she felt a little bit crowded out of my life when my infant was hungry and wanted nuorishment. So eventually, she allowed herself to stay in the same room as I nursed him. One day, she looked at me and said, "I really missed something, didn't I?" I just smiled. She realized that she had created a huge emotional barrier to the concept of breastfeeding andI think she was pleased that it had come down.

Fast forward 2 years. I had twins. My father was at my house and made a big deal about the need for me to leave the room when I breast fed. I had slightly premature twins who fed frequently. He soon realized tht he was almost completely unable to speak with me at all. So he would come to the edge of the room where I was nursing and look away while asking me a question or sharing a thought. Little by little, he became more comfortable with my presence. Then one day, I was in the living room with the wimminfolk and my dad entered the room without realizing that I was nursing at that moment. He stayed and chatted. I started to get up to leave the room and he said not to bother. That was my dad's moment when he realized that being in the room with a nursing baby was quite different than being in the room where people were having sex or worse, were taking a dump.

Society somehow got all twisted up on this issue. I honestly thougth by the 1990's the whole thing was put to bed. I had become accustomed to seeing women nursing on the little chairs or benches that are scattered in the center of the mall and in parks where children play and such. I am disappointed that the controversy (??) rages on. This is really sick.

The only time I ever moved was when we were guests for lunch at someone's house, and they were visibly uncomfortable with me nursing at the table. Their house, their rules - although I lost any desire to go back there with a nursing baby.

Otherwise, I made it pretty clear to family and friends that I was nursing wherever and whenever the baby was hungry.

It was actually pretty funny at times. Picture me as the downtown hippie mom, and my ILs as the polar opposite. I remember the first time we were out for dinner and baby #1 started to cry. MIL asked for her bottle, only to have me announce that we don't have one. Slowly, a look of understanding mixed with panic crosses her face.....

Since the family wanted to see the grandchildren, and since I was nursing for a combined total of 4 yrs and 2 mos., they just got used to it.

[Avalondaughter]

I admit that I'm a little uncomfortable when people breastfeed around me. It's a bodily function. It makes me a bit squeamish. It makes me fee slightly embarassed that someone is whipping out a body part that they normally keep under wraps.

You know what I do?

I don't look.

Problem solved. Go about your business, good mother.

[Fat Actress]

(me nursing my oldest during judging for a costume contest. I'm such a sodomite.

Seriously. This f-ing pisses me off. To actually ask that infants be inconvenienced so that men can avoid the evil boobies. God, what selfishness.

edit: cause my picture was screwing up

[dairyfreelife]

(me nursing my oldest during judging for a costume contest. I'm such a sodomite.

Seriously. This f-ing pisses me off. To actually ask that infants be inconvenienced so that men can avoid the evil boobies. God, what selfishness.

edit: cause my picture was screwing up

Aww. Your baby looks super adorable in that bunny outfit. :D

I think of people overseas who go into villages where women walk around without any shirts on. When it's mentioned that men in our culture are obsessed with women's breasts, the men and women thought it was funny because they thought western men must be like babies because the only people obsessed with breasts are nursing babies in their culture. Simply to say that if you're used to it and exposed to it all the time, it won't be anything new or forbidden. Women don't usually breastfeed for themselves, it's to feed an infant. It's not about respect, it's about need.

[geniebelle6901]

(me nursing my oldest during judging for a costume contest. I'm such a sodomite.

Seriously. This f-ing pisses me off. To actually ask that infants be inconvenienced so that men can avoid the evil boobies. God, what selfishness.

edit: cause my picture was screwing up

No...just a mother feeding her baby. BTW..like your hair, makeup, and little crown...would be a good look for a Halloween party :)