"The Conflict" - Myth of the Perfect Mother

[Austin]

This is a subject that is near and dear to me because I have dealt with a lot of strife over the last year. My mother and my sister were both lactation goddesses. I wanted to breast feed, because I wanted my son to have (imo) the best, and it's a helluva lot cheaper than buying formula. I could not produce enough milk. At all. I could only make 4 oz a day (at the very most, normally I was making 2-3). My mother was convinced I was doing something wrong. No, not really, latch was perfect, baby was suckling, used a beast pump, you just can't get blood from a stone, so to speak.

I never wanted to use cloth diapers, the idea eeks me out, I think it's gross, I don't want poop in my washing machine-a variety of reasons, but the main point is I didn't want to use the damn thing. I was wasting money and being a bad mom.

I went back to work 2 weeks after birth. I brought the baby with me, because I had no options. I used up all the vacation I was allotted and could not afford to take off any extra time. No day care around will take a baby that small, and I didn't want him around other howler monkeys before he had any vaccinations. My mother (who watches him during the day now) was too nervous around him being so little. Obviously, I should quit my job and stay at home, that is a mother's job, even if the electricity gets cut off because her check is paying the bill.

I went on a lot of emotional ups and downs until I finally realized that being a good mom has nothing to do with what society says, it has to do with my son being happy, having the things he needs, the things I want him to have, and me being happy.

It's terrible that we don't have better maternity leave accommodations in this country. Not sure how a lack of them is "pro-family".

ITA with your last sentence. Good for you!

[emmiedahl]

[?quote]Re breastfeeding and formula: It's a national and regional thing. American hospitals still tend to give formula samples, but those bags from formula companies aren't allowed in most Canadian or European hospitals (although I found that formula was available on request). There is a concern - some of it quite legitimate - that hospitals should not be cooperating in the marketing of a commercial product, esp. if that marketing effort may have been designed to sabotage breastfeeding mothers.

Yeah, I realized but didn't mention the obvious advertisement angle with hospital formula. I did try to breastfeed my oldest, but a combination of things prevented that. I was glad to have those perfectly sized formula samples, regardless. I do want at least one more child, and now that I've had more experience I would like to try the more natural approach. If that doesn't work for me, at least I know what will :P

[Rosa]

When my boys were born, 7 and 10 years ago, breastfeeding was encouraged--by my midwives, WIC counselors, pediatrician, etc. BUT, as part of a little diaper bag gift all new parents were given at this particular hospital, were several tiny bottles of formula, and you could get more from the nurses on request. Never was I denied formula or felt that I was not being a good mother when bottle feeding. Either the Mommy Wars were not in full swing or I was oblivious to what others thought. I don't know. Natural birth was also a suggestion and preferred over any sort of pain control, but when I asked for meds, I was quickly given meds. I do remember one mean nurse, who scolded me for calling for help when I couldn't get up into the bed while holding the baby. I was only 19 at the time, am rather short anyway, had stitches from where I tore during delivery, and for some reason had no family with me that day. She said I needed to learn to do things myself since I would have no help once I got home with the baby. She was a bitch for sure, but I see now how she was encouraging independence. Life's lessons learned, I guess.

I think the pressure to breastfeed or not really, really varies by region and class. Working class and poor women seem to get a lot more pressure toward formula and middle-class and higher women feel the pressure to breastfeed more. When I was home with my infant (I live in a really working-class neighborhood)

The pressure to work is more moralistic on middle-class women, too, as far as I can see - working class women may have to work for financial reasons, but if they can manage not to work they don't feel like they failed at working, while I'm seeing a lot of my middle-class friends now (I only have a few, all made as an adult!) who can afford not to work still do because they feel like they ought to be able to do everything easily. Also, they don't remember their own moms not working, even though when I ask it seems to be universally true that those women didn't work if they could afford not to when their kids were preschool age. (that breaks down for poor women who take public aid and don't work while they have infants - there's practical and moralistic pressure on them, but for the working-class women around here, who are almost universally on WIC but not cash aid, there doesn't seem to be a feeling that a job is a moral issue one way or another - if you can afford to stay home, great, if not, that happens, but you're not lazy if you don't work or a bad mother if you do.) Personally I feel like the rise in the parenthood stakes - homeschooling, having 3 kids instead of 2, etc - is partly from that feeling middle class women have that parenting isn't real work so they should either have a job, or do somethign to make parenting be more work.

[Esteleth]

So, I don't have kids. I do think that the Mommy wars are completely overblown and more about setting women against each other rather than encouraging them to join forces to agitate for better family leave policies, better support for parents, etc.

Here's my perspective on the cloth diaper/breast-only/attachment issue: I was born in 1985. My parents were QF, and into the whole "natural" thing.

So, I and my siblings were cloth-diapered, breast-fed, and worn. When we graduated to solids, we got homemade baby food (probably not organic, as that wasn't really a thing back then). Here's how that worked:

1) My mother is a good person, but she is completely unsuited to being a SAHM, especially a SAHM with a bundle of kids. She has a Type-A personality and thrives in crowds that give her lots of mental stimulation. By the time I was two, she was mentally spiraling downwards in a hurry and was seriously depressed.

2) My mother is a perfectionist, and her spiraling mental state aggravated this into a full-on neurosis. This meant that if her milk was "wrong" somehow (usually because she slipped up and ate something !! BAD !! that would get into her milk - oh, and she had an eating disorder, so her milk was thin to begin with) then the baby didn't get any. But no, there was no formula in the house, of course not! Baby went hungry. Repeat the pattern with the older kid and the baby food.

3) Add pressure for BABIES ALL THE TIME and you have a stressed-out mommy, aggravating all her neuroses. Add infertility (PCOS) and it gets 1000% worse.

I am told that the last straw was the time my father came home from work at ~4 pm and found a house of unbathed and undressed kids (with the babies in yesterday's diapers), all the kids complaining of being hungry, and mom sitting in in the kitchen in her nightie with a glazed look in her eyes. Within 6 months they were attending a mainstream church and my mom had a part-time job and a prescription for the pill. Oh, and baby formula and disposable diapers had appeared.

Mom later went back to school, got her master's, and now makes more at her full-time job than my dad does at his.

That's not to say that the attachment model doesn't work for some parents. But it can get bad real fast. Add shit like QF to it, and it can get horrific. A major part of me is TERRIFIED as to the potential for what could have happened had they not rejected QF - another Andrea Yeats?

[icecreamycakeycake]

As Mothers we are "in charge" of our childrens nutrition for approximately 18years. Why does there have to be so much emphasis on the first 6-12mos?

[Esteleth]

As Mothers we are "in charge" of our childrens nutrition for approximately 18years. Why does there have to be so much emphasis on the first 6-12mos?

Well, that is at least semi-sound. The first year is very important developmentally, especially brain development.

[2xx1xy1JD]

I think the pressure to breastfeed or not really, really varies by region and class. Working class and poor women seem to get a lot more pressure toward formula and middle-class and higher women feel the pressure to breastfeed more. When I was home with my infant (I live in a really working-class neighborhood)

The pressure to work is more moralistic on middle-class women, too, as far as I can see - working class women may have to work for financial reasons, but if they can manage not to work they don't feel like they failed at working, while I'm seeing a lot of my middle-class friends now (I only have a few, all made as an adult!) who can afford not to work still do because they feel like they ought to be able to do everything easily. Also, they don't remember their own moms not working, even though when I ask it seems to be universally true that those women didn't work if they could afford not to when their kids were preschool age. (that breaks down for poor women who take public aid and don't work while they have infants - there's practical and moralistic pressure on them, but for the working-class women around here, who are almost universally on WIC but not cash aid, there doesn't seem to be a feeling that a job is a moral issue one way or another - if you can afford to stay home, great, if not, that happens, but you're not lazy if you don't work or a bad mother if you do.) Personally I feel like the rise in the parenthood stakes - homeschooling, having 3 kids instead of 2, etc - is partly from that feeling middle class women have that parenting isn't real work so they should either have a job, or do somethign to make parenting be more work.

I have long suspected that the Mommy Wars are a substitute for actual support and assistance for mothers.

Issues with unplanned pregnancies? Just tell women that they shouldn't be sluts and have a huge moral debate about abortion. Far better than granting universal health care coverage, protection for pregnant workers, benefits for poor families or parental leave, right?

Going back to work? Force women to make a stark choice between leaving a newborn and staying out of the workforce indefinitely, and then have them clobber each other. Forget that decent parental leave policies would make it a non-issue for many families.

My experience was that the issue was more muted here. Most of my friends have had periods where they stayed home, and periods where they worked. For some of us (like my sister and I), parental leave for the dads was also part of the plan. In the long run, I don't think that missing three years at work out of a career than may last at least 40 years is a big deal.

[Koala]

This is a subject that is near and dear to me because I have dealt with a lot of strife over the last year. My mother and my sister were both lactation goddesses. I wanted to breast feed, because I wanted my son to have (imo) the best, and it's a helluva lot cheaper than buying formula. I could not produce enough milk. At all. I could only make 4 oz a day (at the very most, normally I was making 2-3). My mother was convinced I was doing something wrong. No, not really, latch was perfect, baby was suckling, used a beast pump, you just can't get blood from a stone, so to speak.

I never wanted to use cloth diapers, the idea eeks me out, I think it's gross, I don't want poop in my washing machine-a variety of reasons, but the main point is I didn't want to use the damn thing. I was wasting money and being a bad mom.

I went back to work 2 weeks after birth. I brought the baby with me, because I had no options. I used up all the vacation I was allotted and could not afford to take off any extra time. No day care around will take a baby that small, and I didn't want him around other howler monkeys before he had any vaccinations. My mother (who watches him during the day now) was too nervous around him being so little. Obviously, I should quit my job and stay at home, that is a mother's job, even if the electricity gets cut off because her check is paying the bill.

I went on a lot of emotional ups and downs until I finally realized that being a good mom has nothing to do with what society says, it has to do with my son being happy, having the things he needs, the things I want him to have, and me being happy.

Bless your heart, that's a ridiculous amount of pressure.

I think you are doing fine from the sounds of it. You baby has a full tummy, clean diapers, and a mom who loves him. In 20 years he won't give a tinker's damn whether you breastfed or cloth diapered. ;)

My mom worked. My grandmother worked. I stayed home. We all made our choices. If my mom and grandmother hadn't worked their families would have gone without. Period. They did what they had to do to provide the lifestyles they wanted their kids to have. That's what good moms do.

[chilsa]

Women are often forced to make stark choices long after their newborns are grown. For me, as a single mother, it's often having to call in to work and miss 8 hours of a low-paying job to take care of a very sick child. It peeves my managers, I know, but what other option do I have? I had one manager comment that I call in with regularity and it's becoming a pattern. Really? I bet that manager could better afford to stay home with my sick kid than I can. Add to that the fact that my son has severe emotional issues and has been suspended several times this year (resulting in many days of lost wages as well) to the point I wanted to homeschool....but I couldn't afford to. I would love the option to stay home and take care of him myself, but along with millions of other women, I am simply unable to. To what extent is it society's fault? Society's responsibility? I don't know, and I can't say that I even know how this can change, but it's one thing I would change in a heartbeat if I had my choice of superpowers.

[geniebelle6901]

This is what my sis just said about the mommy wars. She said as long as he kids are loved, fed, clean, clean clothes, have good manners, stay out of trouble, etc. then she doesn't give a rat's ass what any other mother says & will say so to her face. And if you knew my sis, you would know that she was serious.

[contrary]

Lord, but I somehow landed at motherhood dot commune when my first was born, and I was looking for some online support.

arggh! that place could make you feel like a total and complete failure for pretty much anything.

ahem. but anyway. I breastfed both of my babies, on demand and exclusively.

One has eczema, and several allergies. She loved being worn, but would not co-sleep.

The younger has no allergies, but had to have ear tubes for chronic infections. She refused to be worn, but co-slept for 15 months.

I think all these things are just fine (breastfeeding, co-sleeping, babywearing), but my anecdotal evidence suggests that your baby could turn out about a zillion different ways regardless of whether or not she gets some similac or a maclaren.

[MonkeyMomma]

One of the things that crops up for me every time I read an interview with Badinter is how non-existant or peripheral male co-parents are in her analysis. Is my husband the only one in the universe capable of washing cloth diapers??

Also, I admit to not reading the book yet, so feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, but she seems to be talking about a certain kind of "mother" doing a certain kind of "modern motherhood." Primarily, women like herself - white, upper-class, etc. And also about doing mothering/parenting in a patriarchal, capitalist system instead of challenging that system to make the situation better for everyone.

Breastfeeding, cloth diapers, co-sleeping didn't oppress me - but I sure felt the pain of not having guaranteed parental leave, and having to take what I got completely unpaid. And I considered myself lucky for what I got! So let's fix that, maybe.

[2xx1xy1JD]

I wondered, based on the article, what sort of 24/7 childcare was available for this mother who doesn't breastfeed on demand or co-sleep or take time off from work.

Sure, if you have a night nurse, you can have someone else give the baby a bottle at night, in a far-off room, while you have sex with your husband and then sleep all night.

Otherwise, you're just dragging your ass out of bed to make a bottle and shuffle into another room.

[Kaylee]

One of the things that crops up for me every time I read an interview with Badinter is how non-existant or peripheral male co-parents are in her analysis. Is my husband the only one in the universe capable of washing cloth diapers??

Also, I admit to not reading the book yet, so feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, but she seems to be talking about a certain kind of "mother" doing a certain kind of "modern motherhood." Primarily, women like herself - white, upper-class, etc. And also about doing mothering/parenting in a patriarchal, capitalist system instead of challenging that system to make the situation better for everyone.

I had some of the same issues with the book, and with the "mommy wars" in general - the focus is almost always on white, upper middle-class women who have the resources and options available to make so many of the choices they talk about. On of the things that really grates on me about the whole debate is how even most of the stuff I read about women's rights, as applied to women with children and families, never really applied to me because I was not in the right type of job or social class.

I am also a little suspicious of Badinter's motives in some areas because of her connection to several formula companies. She is a major shareholder in a PR company with Nestle and the makers of Enfamil and Similac as clients. I doubt this is her main motivation, but anyone who's followed the mommy wars much at all knows that there's a lot of animosity and most AP advocates and it's obvious that supporting formula feeding and parenting practices that make formula feeding more liely just makes sense when you count the major formula manufacturers among your sources of income.

For me, a lot of the crunchy/attachment stuff made financial sense. An unmedicated birth with a midwife is a hell of a lot cheaper than a c-section, breastfeeding is cheaper than formula, and and cloth diapers can be cheaper than disposables. I was pulled out of work because of complications and didn't have enough maternity leave to return to my job but, even if I had, it would have been hard to find a daycare that worked with the shifts my husband and I worked and would have taken a large part of my income. Looking at the jobs available to me now, I'm finding that I would be spending around 60% of my check on childcare and it's just not worth it once I add the other costs of working to that as well. It pisses me off to see SAHMs portrayed as these women who are constantly shopping and have a housekeeper and a nanny to watch the kids, or for people to assume we are just too lazy to work, because those of us who are too broke to work and struggling to save money or maybe make a little money from home tend to get ignored from both sides.

Also, I keep hearing about all these over-the-top breastfeeding advocates, but I sure as fuck couldn't find any around here. I had problems with low supply and tried asking the hospital, my pediatrician, and local support groups for contact info for a lactation consultant. I tried for months and couldn't get up with anyone. I couldn't even get my pediatrician to listen until I broke down in tears at my midwife's office because I knew my son was losing weight and couldn't get any help (she got me an appointment for a weigh in that day and I was right). When I finally got to the ped's office, I was referred not to a real lactation consultant but to a male PA who was considered their lactation expert but was not an IBCLC and didn't seem to know of care much about breastfeeding - I was given formula, told to supplement, and told not to worry about using a SNS (supplemental nursing system) or any other method that would help keep my milk supply up. I knew it was the "wrong" advice, but I also knew my soon needed to eat something so we ended up spending $20-40+ a week on formula and, of course, he weaned early. When I tried to ask others for help, all I got were snide remarks like "it's not a contest", "you don't HAVE to do that", "I used formula and my kids are fine", etc. Honestly, the formula was a lot more inconvenient, both in terms of cost and effort.

As far as the attachment parenting stuff, I really don't see how it holds women back. If anything, I liked being freed from at least some of the rampant consumerism that comes with more mainstream parenting and I feel like it's been easier keeping my baby close. Wearing him in a sling, and now a backpack carrier at times, has freed me to do a lot of things that would have been more awkward or impossible with a stroller (hiking, gardening, attending protests, shopping in stores with narrow aisles) and I found breastfeeding to be the most convenient way of feeding him, especially at night. The same goes for cosleeping - we bought a crib but never used it- it was easier to let him nurse at night and to have him nearby than to have to get up and down every time he woke up - he slept through the night early and easily and I think part of this is because I was right there with him.

Also, if your partner is not helping you're doing it wrong. Men can't breastfeed, but that's about it, and they can still give a bottle to the baby if the mother pumps, like most working mothers do. We've used cloth diapers from the start and my husband learned how to change them, wash them, etc alongside me. He also carried that baby a lot, sometimes in a sling or carrier, and got up with him in the night for non-hunger things and feedings once he was mostly on the bottle. Even though he doesn't cook, he learned to help make baby food once I showed him how easy it was (mini blender and steamer for some fruits and veggies). OTOH, I know a lot of couples who use disposable diapers, formula, etc and where the husband still doesn't help much or at all.

I think this dismissive attitude that says attachment parents are holding all women back or are trying to be "perfect" and "don't really have to do all that" just adds fuel to the fire. It's not so much about what is necessary or even best for a child, but about pushing more modern and more consumerist choices as the ideal form of parenting. Being told that the way you want to raise your child is outdated or unnecessary or anti-feminist just seems like another way of trying to take lifestyle choices out of the hands of women and place us all into one little box.

[Austin]

I had some of the same issues with the book, and with the "mommy wars" in general - the focus is almost always on white, upper middle-class women who have the resources and options available to make so many of the choices they talk about. On of the things that really grates on me about the whole debate is how even most of the stuff I read about women's rights, as applied to women with children and families, never really applied to me because I was not in the right type of job or social class.

I am also a little suspicious of Badinter's motives in some areas because of her connection to several formula companies. She is a major shareholder in a PR company with Nestle and the makers of Enfamil and Similac as clients. I doubt this is her main motivation, but anyone who's followed the mommy wars much at all knows that there's a lot of animosity and most AP advocates and it's obvious that supporting formula feeding and parenting practices that make formula feeding more liely just makes sense when you count the major formula manufacturers among your sources of income.

For me, a lot of the crunchy/attachment stuff made financial sense. An unmedicated birth with a midwife is a hell of a lot cheaper than a c-section, breastfeeding is cheaper than formula, and and cloth diapers can be cheaper than disposables. I was pulled out of work because of complications and didn't have enough maternity leave to return to my job but, even if I had, it would have been hard to find a daycare that worked with the shifts my husband and I worked and would have taken a large part of my income. Looking at the jobs available to me now, I'm finding that I would be spending around 60% of my check on childcare and it's just not worth it once I add the other costs of working to that as well. It pisses me off to see SAHMs portrayed as these women who are constantly shopping and have a housekeeper and a nanny to watch the kids, or for people to assume we are just too lazy to work, because those of us who are too broke to work and struggling to save money or maybe make a little money from home tend to get ignored from both sides.

Also, I keep hearing about all these over-the-top breastfeeding advocates, but I sure as fuck couldn't find any around here. I had problems with low supply and tried asking the hospital, my pediatrician, and local support groups for contact info for a lactation consultant. I tried for months and couldn't get up with anyone. I couldn't even get my pediatrician to listen until I broke down in tears at my midwife's office because I knew my son was losing weight and couldn't get any help (she got me an appointment for a weigh in that day and I was right). When I finally got to the ped's office, I was referred not to a real lactation consultant but to a male PA who was considered their lactation expert but was not an IBCLC and didn't seem to know of care much about breastfeeding - I was given formula, told to supplement, and told not to worry about using a SNS (supplemental nursing system) or any other method that would help keep my milk supply up. I knew it was the "wrong" advice, but I also knew my soon needed to eat something so we ended up spending $20-40+ a week on formula and, of course, he weaned early. When I tried to ask others for help, all I got were snide remarks like "it's not a contest", "you don't HAVE to do that", "I used formula and my kids are fine", etc. Honestly, the formula was a lot more inconvenient, both in terms of cost and effort.

As far as the attachment parenting stuff, I really don't see how it holds women back. If anything, I liked being freed from at least some of the rampant consumerism that comes with more mainstream parenting and I feel like it's been easier keeping my baby close. Wearing him in a sling, and now a backpack carrier at times, has freed me to do a lot of things that would have been more awkward or impossible with a stroller (hiking, gardening, attending protests, shopping in stores with narrow aisles) and I found breastfeeding to be the most convenient way of feeding him, especially at night. The same goes for cosleeping - we bought a crib but never used it- it was easier to let him nurse at night and to have him nearby than to have to get up and down every time he woke up - he slept through the night early and easily and I think part of this is because I was right there with him.

Also, if your partner is not helping you're doing it wrong. Men can't breastfeed, but that's about it, and they can still give a bottle to the baby if the mother pumps, like most working mothers do. We've used cloth diapers from the start and my husband learned how to change them, wash them, etc alongside me. He also carried that baby a lot, sometimes in a sling or carrier, and got up with him in the night for non-hunger things and feedings once he was mostly on the bottle. Even though he doesn't cook, he learned to help make baby food once I showed him how easy it was (mini blender and steamer for some fruits and veggies). OTOH, I know a lot of couples who use disposable diapers, formula, etc and where the husband still doesn't help much or at all.

I think this dismissive attitude that says attachment parents are holding all women back or are trying to be "perfect" and "don't really have to do all that" just adds fuel to the fire. It's not so much about what is necessary or even best for a child, but about pushing more modern and more consumerist choices as the ideal form of parenting. Being told that the way you want to raise your child is outdated or unnecessary or anti-feminist just seems like another way of trying to take lifestyle choices out of the hands of women and place us all into one little box.

I don't disagree, but there is quite the dismissive attitude among AP parents towards anyone who doesn't toe the line with regards to those practices. I actually did a lot of AP parenting and do not oppose any of it on principle, but I still bristle when I read these long entreaties on why these practices are sooooo much better, smarter, etc. If they worked for you (or me), then great. But they don't work for everyone, and everyone is not comfortable or does not find it nearly as convenient as you do. Every woman should feel comfortable with her choices because if she's not and she feels pressured to "mother" a certain way, then that certainly can't be a positive thing for the mother/child bond, which I think is far more important that if the kid has some formula or a disposable diaper on his bum now and then.

I don't agree with much of what this author and wouldn't bother to read the book, but I think she makes some good points about women oppressing one another for what are truly legitimate choices.

As far as not knowing any breastfeeding tyrants, it may have something to do with financial status or region or something. My BFF and my SIL, both white middle-class women, were absolutely vilified by the lactation consultants in the respective hospitals where they gave birth. My SIL's lactation consultant actually screamed at her, causing another nurse to come running into the room. Neither wanted to breastfeed. It's not a crime not to want to, ffs. Both had to return to work very quickly, and. . . it doesn't really matter, as it was their choice to make. This was 21 and 15 years ago, and they both took plenty of crap from other moms in their circles. If things are so much better these days, then swell, but I wouldn't know it from the mothering boards. Just the constant need to explain our choices to each other is tiresome.

[atheistjd]

Quick guide for any mother who may encounter the Mommy Wars:

Identify the person with the advice, question or demand.

Is it:

-you?

- your child?

- the actively-involved other parent of the child?

If so, the opinion matters and should be considered. If not, is the person

- a mandated reporter in your child's life? (Doctor, nurse, teacher, daycare provider, etc.)

- a social worker from a child protection agency?

If so, you can't simply tell them to fuck off. Instead, listen politely to what they have to say, answer any legitimate questions, take any information given especially if it relates to matters of health and safety or the law, do any of your own research, and make an informed decision.

If not, is the person

- someone who has anything useful to contribute in terms of practical advice

- someone who is not likely to be full of shit or judgmental

If so, then listen if you want to, take what you can use, and ignore the rest.

If not, is the person

- nosy

- judgmental

- full of outdated advice that is useless or even dangerous

- annoying

- a talk-show host

- your mother-in-law

If so, feel free to tell them to fuck off. If that would cause family grief, MYOB also works.

If not, you can still ignore the noise and do whatever you feel is right.

Soooo... this is awesome. And seeing as I am a bit of a flowchart nerd - this is so being turned into a flowchart. After exams :)

[atheistjd]

So here's a question to the mothers out there - although I'm a bit away from having any kids, I'm just curious as to where the sane places are on the interwebz. If you've found FJ, you've certainly found something sane out there for a Mommy-Wars-free forum experience? Because if there isn't there totally should be. May be impossible to maintain though...

[julie paradox]

The livejournal parenting community plan_survive was set up specifically to be Mummy-Wars-free. It's moderated by two homeschooling feminists. Traffic is a bit slow at the moment but all the questions I've seen get several people answering.

[dawbs]

So here's a question to the mothers out there - although I'm a bit away from having any kids, I'm just curious as to where the sane places are on the interwebz. If you've found FJ, you've certainly found something sane out there for a Mommy-Wars-free forum experience? Because if there isn't there totally should be. May be impossible to maintain though...

You zeroed in on part of what I was coming to say...honestly, I think the interwebz aren't the place to see the 'non warring' parenting stuff. Because the internet lends itself to extremists and black and white-thinking.

I mean, on a message board whose target posters are married people, periodically, people will come and say things like "wow, I have GREAT In-Laws, I'm shocked that so many people have HORRID in-laws".

And I beat my head against the wall every time someone says it, because the number of posts don't add up to the number of 'normal'

Say there are 100 posters and 5 of them have horrific in-law stories, 5 of them have "I ahte my MIL" stories, 5 of them have "I like my MIL" stories and 5 of them have "the heavens open and birds sing every time my ILs walk into a room", 80 have 'neutral-good' relationships.

There will be, out of 10 posts to do w/ ILs, 7 bad/complaining posts and 3 positive posts--because 'positive ' posts don't tend to get much traffic and they aren't 'good stories'. The vocal people are the ones who are complaining

There are, IMO, a lot of non-awfully-judgmental parents in the world, but they're not going to be the ones taking front-and-center positions in forums where there are mommy-warriors--they may be on teh forum, but they're not opening their mouths in certain heated discussions.

[atheistjd]

...

There are, IMO, a lot of non-awfully-judgmental parents in the world, but they're not going to be the ones taking front-and-center positions in forums where there are mommy-warriors--they may be on teh forum, but they're not opening their mouths in certain heated discussions.

That makes good sense. I just wish there were as many people advocating for sanity in parenting as there were arguing for breastfeeding. Like, this forum is devoted to fundie-snarking, but on the whole seems to be a place where dissenting parties can discuss their opposing viewpoints in a relatively sane manner. Is parenthood (I know moms get the most flack, but Dad's surely think about this stuff too... at least the good ones?) really that insanely different that people cannot see that their way might be best for them, but other things might work for other people? I guess it is - the way it sounds like some of the moms on here and IRL have been treated in public by complete strangers is so unreal. I may need to just make a closet full of shirts that simply say "Fuck Off" for the third trimester to the time my kids are like 7.

[dawbs]

I think some of it doesn't open it up to a middle ground because it 'break's people.

BFing breaks people.

I mean that in the NICEST possible way--as someone who never used formula w/ my kid (who is still nursing at 20 months)--it does boot-camp-style-hazing ways of breaking you.

I dunno, I'm trying to describe this and don't think I can do it well...I'm going to caricature a bit...

I went back to work at 6 weeks, so for 17.5 months, if I was going to be away from my child for more than 4 hours, I carried a pump; I had thrush and clogged ducts and couldn't 'share' night-time feedings w/ the Mr; I carried a car adapter with me and flashed truckers daily as I pumped both ways on my commute; I multiple books; I bagged cooler upon cooler of milk that was/is arranged by date in color-coded boxes in a deep-freeze; I limited my alcohol and caffeine intakes; I haven't gone back on necessary migraine meds; I had pads in my shirt for 20 months and still can't wear an under wire bra because I change over a cup-size between 6 am and 6 pm...

(FWIW, all of the above is true but I actually had a GOOD BFing experience and if I have more kids, I'll try to do it this way again--I'm leaving out all the positive for argument sake :)

And then someone says "oh, yeah, well, none of that was *really* all THAT important, if you could have gotten a good night's sleep {HA} which would have let you think rationally about it, and if you'd have read more {HA}, you wouldn't have put yourself through all that"...and instead of saying "you may have a point" I get "*rawr rawr rawr* *DEFEND my decision *because why would I have done all of the above if that deep freeze full of milk wasn't liquid gold?"

And then someone I love says "Oh, yeah, well, I've decided to formula feed" and instead of hearing "but you know I'm not an idiot and have my reasons" at the end of that sentence, I hear "because you put yourself through agony for no reason, all that pain was worthless, worthless I tell you, bwahahahah" (and then I say "and if I hadn't complained about my BFing experience, tehy would BF")

What I'm trying to say is that you end up SO invested in your choice that saying "oh, but it may not have been *THAT* important" is having to say "so whatever hell I went through was worthless". And that's hard.

And it's not just about BFing, it's about childbirth and TTC and...everything.

I don't know if any of that makes sense out of my head (for my excuse, I'm fighting a migraine and I loose communication when that happens. And that's all because of BFing :)

[2xx1xy1JD]

Oh, I get it.

The stakes feel higher. Deciding to breastfeed when I was preg was easy. Deciding what to do when my nipples were bleeding and I was screaming in pain wasn't (not to scare anyone too much - I ended up fixing the problem and continued to do it for years). If you debate co-sleeping, you are basically talking to moms going through torture-grade sleep deprivation.

Each board and site has its own personality, and they morph over time according to the individual posters. One person can be really cool, while another can piss you off. I also found that the whole board can shift over time. On Babycenter, the original breastfeeding vs. formula feeding board started drifting more and more off topic, as a bunch of us eventually got tired of rehashing the same arguments but continued to enjoy talking and debating. Eventually, after a few name changes, it just became a private discussion board for the old-timers.

Support boards can be more useful that debate boards. Eg. ask "what sling works best for a heavy baby", not "is a sling better than a stroller".

[Rosa]

I have long suspected that the Mommy Wars are a substitute for actual support and assistance for mothers.

Issues with unplanned pregnancies? Just tell women that they shouldn't be sluts and have a huge moral debate about abortion. Far better than granting universal health care coverage, protection for pregnant workers, benefits for poor families or parental leave, right?

Going back to work? Force women to make a stark choice between leaving a newborn and staying out of the workforce indefinitely, and then have them clobber each other. Forget that decent parental leave policies would make it a non-issue for many families.

My experience was that the issue was more muted here. Most of my friends have had periods where they stayed home, and periods where they worked. For some of us (like my sister and I), parental leave for the dads was also part of the plan. In the long run, I don't think that missing three years at work out of a career than may last at least 40 years is a big deal.

AMEN on the bolded part, and my real life experience has been a lot like yours - I've not worked, and then worked, and now I'm not working again, and I get no flack (except from my mother-in-law, who only does it behind my back, so.) The internet is not very representative of real life on this issue, I think.

[ilovetchotchkes]

AMEN on the bolded part, and my real life experience has been a lot like yours - I've not worked, and then worked, and now I'm not working again, and I get no flack (except from my mother-in-law, who only does it behind my back, so.) The internet is not very representative of real life on this issue, I think.

Yes ! this!!

I get hell for having extended breastfed my son, IN PUBLIC, staying at home... blah blah blah, and yet, had I gone back to work and happily fed my son Similac I'd get shit for it too! I can't win! So basically my attitude with baby #2 is, "you don't like it? go shit in the ocean. You already raised your kids, you did a good job. My choices do not invalidate yours."

[desertvixen]

I have long suspected that the Mommy Wars are a substitute for actual support and assistance for mothers.

Sing it, sister! Not only does it make everything the individual woman/couple's issue, but keeps people tired enough to not ask why we don't have better policies on these issues.

Issues with unplanned pregnancies? Just tell women that they shouldn't be sluts and have a huge moral debate about abortion. Far better than granting universal health care coverage, protection for pregnant workers, benefits for poor families or parental leave, right?

Going back to work? Force women to make a stark choice between leaving a newborn and staying out of the workforce indefinitely, and then have them clobber each other. Forget that decent parental leave policies would make it a non-issue for many families.

QFT.