Ugh - Anna T & the 'singles crisis'/age at marriage MERGED

[slh12280]

I like Anna in a way. Some of her writings have been what I would consider extreme but she at least allows disagreement and debate. I don't think that everyone is going to or should be married at 20, stay at home mom, working dad lifestyle. Life is different for different people, doesn't mean it is wrong all the time.

[MamaJunebug]

Can I beg your indulgences in the form of a few Qs about Anna?

She has no father - is her mom divorced? Widowed? never-married?

It's the rare post that doesn't have at least 20 replies -- any one have a guess as to what makes her followers so conversational ?

I gather she has some kind of degree in anutrition-related field - did shecontinue towork after her wedding?

And finally, totally out of idlecuriosity, has she claimed any Jewish ancestry??

Thanks so much for your patient answers, esp since I lack enough of that quality to go thru her long history in search of the info!!! *blush*

[slh12280]

She has no father - is her mom divorced? Widowed? never-married? Not sure exactly, but she never knew her father and he wanted her mother to have an abortion.

It's the rare post that doesn't have at least 20 replies -- any one have a guess as to what makes her followers so conversational ? No clue

I gather she has some kind of degree in anutrition-related field - did shecontinue towork after her wedding? The only time she mentioned working was when her husband was unemployed.

And finally, totally out of idlecuriosity, has she claimed any Jewish ancestry?? Yes, there were posts about this before her wedding.

I follow Anna regularly, something about her I find really interesting.

[darkplumaged]

I don't think her parents were ever married; I get the sense that her father has never been involved in her life.

I believe her mother's mother is of Jewish ancestry. Her mother isn't religious at all, far as I know, and her father is not Jewish.

...

It's interesting how different the norms in the Orthodox Jewish community are versus those among more liberal Jews. I know lots of Jews (I am one), and I can't think of any non-Orthodox Jewish couples of my acquaintance who married before age 25 or so. Most of the couples I know married after at least one partner was 30. That would be considered way past prime among Orthodox Jews, but it is absolutely normal for the rest of us. (That's not to say it's desirable, but that's a whole 'nother topic.)

[lilah]

It's the rare post that doesn't have at least 20 replies -- any one have a guess as to what makes her followers so conversational ?

Not sure, she mostly has fundie friends. I wonder if reading and commenting on her blog make her fundie friends feel good about themselves, like they can pat themselves on the back for having a Jewish friend who mostly talks and thinks and believes all the same things they do once you ignore the whole Jesus thing.

[liltwinstar]

It actually took her a while to "come out" as Jewish. She wrote for a good bit about feminism and being a SAHD and had lots of fundie Christian links, comments, etc. I think she wrote for LAF for a while. She also never said where she lived.

Eventually, some folks wished her "Merry Christmas" in the comments and she revealed that she was Jewish. She wasn't mean or nasty about it; I remember someone asked if they had offended her by saying Merry Christmas and she said no. I think it was at that point that she also said that she lived in Israel, but she didn't say where (which is fine; I know that part of the world can be volatile).

Anyway, she's said that her mom (and grandma) immigrated to Israel from the (former) Soviet Union. I'm assuming that she's Russian since she said at one point that Russian was her first language. Before she married, she had to go before a Rabbinical court and "prove" that she was ethnically Jewish by bringing her (elderly) Grandma with her. I recall that Grandma had to answer questions about the Holocaust, etc. Any Jewish FJers know why she'd need to do this?

[Purple]

Anyway, she's said that her mom (and grandma) immigrated to Israel from the (former) Soviet Union. I'm assuming that she's Russian since she said at one point that Russian was her first language. Before she married, she had to go before a Rabbinical court and "prove" that she was ethnically Jewish by bringing her (elderly) Grandma with her. I recall that Grandma had to answer questions about the Holocaust, etc. Any Jewish FJers know why she'd need to do this?

I'm not Jewish, but I know something about Israeli rules. Israel offers automatic citizenship to any Jew or non-Jew with at least one Jewish grandparent who is willing to immigrate there. They call it the Law of Return. A major purpose of that law is to ensure a continued demographic majority, so rightly or wrongly, they require immigrants to prove their Jewish heritage, which involves going before a rabbinical court and convincing the rabbis that they are, in fact, Jewish. I'm not sure what questions they ask, but it seems strange that they would expect a Russian Jew to know any more about the Holocaust than a non-Jew would - after all, it's not like she would have seen it firsthand.

Jews aren't permitted to marry non-Jews in under Orthodox halacha, and such marriages can't be performed in Israel. Mixed marriages performed outside of Israel are recognized, so Israelis in that situation usually fly to Cyprus and get married there. If she wanted to marry a Jewish man in Israel, she had to first establish that she herself was Jewish. Judaism is considered to be inherited through the female line, which means that if her grandmother was Jewish, then her mother (however non-practicing she may have been) is Jewish, and she herself can also be considered Jewish.

[themadapple]

I'm not Jewish, but I know something about Israeli rules. Israel offers automatic citizenship to any Jew or non-Jew with at least one Jewish grandparent who is willing to immigrate there. They call it the Law of Return. A major purpose of that law is to ensure a continued demographic majority, so rightly or wrongly, they require immigrants to prove their Jewish heritage, which involves going before a rabbinical court and convincing the rabbis that they are, in fact, Jewish. I'm not sure what questions they ask, but it seems strange that they would expect a Russian Jew to know any more about the Holocaust than a non-Jew would - after all, it's not like she would have seen it firsthand.

Actually, from what I've read, her grandmother is Romanian and lost many family members in the holocaust (she emigrated to the Soviet Union in that vague time period).

[fundiefan]

Her grandmother was born in Transylvania and married a non-Jew. When or what came of it I don't know. I don't even know why I remember that; probably just because of all the pop-culture connotations of Transylvania. Anna lived in Ukraine with her mom until they moved to Israel. She once posted pics of here mom's visit to where they used to live. She wasn't raised religiously and somewhere along the line decided she needed to change from a secular girl getting a college education to a SAHD merely waiting for her prince charming. She spent quite a bit of time complaining about her college education while she was in the process of getting it. I think it's a degree in nutrition, but I remember references to 'home ec' as well. She didn't finish it fully until after she was married. I get the feeling her mom 'made' her get an education and she was disappointed she couldn't sit at home and sew and clean until a man came along.

At any rate. She started that blog as if she knew 'things' and had answers. It was never a journal style blog, it was always her forum for telling the world how things should be. As an unmarried girl, living at home with mommy, she posted about homeschooling and marriage and marital conflict and anything else that stuck up in her bonnet. Very typical SAHD know-it-all mindset, even though it wasn't actually what she was.

[lilah]

I always wonder what sets some of these secularly raised girls down the rabbit hole to SAHD-dom. In the case of Lina, Anna T and the homemaker by choice girl (I forget her name) they all seemed be miserable and unsuccessful at college and work, sometimes downright afraid of being an independent adult.

[Guest Anonymous]

Anna T was studying part-time for a diploma in Nutrition when I first started reading her blog. She did it as a compromise because her mother wanted her to have an education and she wanted to be a SAHD. All paid for by Mother while she lived at home, but still Anna blogged of her own virtue of graduating debt-free and having savings to help buy her first home outright. She bleated endlessly about what a help she was to her mother and grandmother because of her dedication to being a SAHD. Then she met a random Jewish bloke on a dating site, dragged Granny to Rabbinical Court so she could marry him, and from her more recent posts about not letting family influence you and not wasting time on long telephone calls to family, it seems she has pretty much dumped them now.

Her diploma was some sort of professional qualification, which included practical placements - she used to write disparagingly about her clients on her blog. She was called to a meeting with her tutor to discuss her attitude on one occasion, and told them she wasn't going to work after marriage anyway, so why bother. She wrote on her blog at how she pitied her tutors for being middle aged and in the workforce, and one or two readers responded that while she was on the course and dealing with real live clients, maybe she had a responsibility to lose the attitude and work harder.

From what I understand, Anna felt hurt very badly by having no father in her life. She started out life as a non-practicing Jew and had a boyfriend in her teens who abused her, physically, I think. After that she became ultra-conservative and began the SAHD business. She doesn't seem to have any friends now - her former best friend chose not to go through the court process to choose her heritage and married in a Liberal Synagogue. She asked Anna to be her Bridesmaid, but pious little Anna refused to attend the wedding, on principle.

Usually, when she rants long and hard about a subject, it seems to be her way of coping with whatever is going on in real-life, which she lets slip in the comments. She ranted for weeks about Jewish men who don't provide for their families, and then it turned out her OH was unemployed while she was working part-time to bring in some cash. She ranted on and on about cutting off unhelpful influences and then later let slip her mother had expressed concern about having a second child so soon after the first.

[MamaJunebug]

Ok ... gad, this is indeed a rabbit-hole. So is she a Messianic Jew, that is, does she believe in Jesus as the Messiah?

Thanks! I find her blog way too dense to visit. (Yeah, I'm lazy in my old age! ;) )

ETS: OK, I've just read anniec's and Lina practices Judaism. Right?

Like I say, the dense trying to read the dense .. that's me and Miss Mrs. Lina!

[Guest Anonymous]

We're talking about Anna T aren't we, who is an orthodox Jew.

Lina is the fake Jew, who practices her own version of Christianity. Anna is the ultra-conservative Jew who passes any Christian tracts she is given over to a nasty organisation that takes out anyone who openly proselytises in Israel.

[MamaJunebug]

We're talking about Anna T aren't we, who is an orthodox Jew.

Lina is the fake Jew, who practices her own version of Christianity. Anna is the ultra-conservative Jew who passes any Christian tracts she is given over to a nasty organisation that takes out anyone who openly proselytises in Israel.

Oh, Anna! see? I told you I was dense!!! OK, got it. Finally. Thank you! :dance:

[Guest Anonymous]

:lol: Glad you are with us MamaJB!

For your further 'education':

http://ccostello.blogspot.com/2008/01/l ... chain.html

Anna's account of her family history.

[BlackHawk]

I'm not Jewish, but I know something about Israeli rules. Israel offers automatic citizenship to any Jew or non-Jew with at least one Jewish grandparent who is willing to immigrate there. They call it the Law of Return. A major purpose of that law is to ensure a continued demographic majority, so rightly or wrongly, they require immigrants to prove their Jewish heritage, which involves going before a rabbinical court and convincing the rabbis that they are, in fact, Jewish. I'm not sure what questions they ask, but it seems strange that they would expect a Russian Jew to know any more about the Holocaust than a non-Jew would - after all, it's not like she would have seen it firsthand.

Jews aren't permitted to marry non-Jews in under Orthodox halacha, and such marriages can't be performed in Israel. Mixed marriages performed outside of Israel are recognized, so Israelis in that situation usually fly to Cyprus and get married there. If she wanted to marry a Jewish man in Israel, she had to first establish that she herself was Jewish. Judaism is considered to be inherited through the female line, which means that if her grandmother was Jewish, then her mother (however non-practicing she may have been) is Jewish, and she herself can also be considered Jewish.

Is that Jew by culture or religion? I love learning about Jewish customs, always have! If it's Jew by religion, does that mean someone who converts can then go to Israel and marry a Jew by culture? If not, can Jews who have converted be married in Israel? Or is it only Jews by culture who can marry there?

edited because I can't spell this morning!

[fundiefan]

Is that Jew by culture or religion? I love learning about Jewish customs, always have! If it's Jew by religion, does that mean someone who converts can then go to Israel and marry a Jew by culture? If not, can Jews who have converted be married in Israel? Or is it only Jews by culture who can marry there?

edited because I can't spell this morning!

I don't know anything about Israel or Judiasm or culture versus religion. But, a friend's (Catholic raised) daughter met an Orthodox Jew in college here in the US, and they are now married. She converted to Judiasm here in the states. Then she moved to Israel with him and went seminary, something that is part of the conversion process as I understand it. In November, they got married, in Israel. She continued to attend seminary.

Her husband was not Orthodox from birth and grew up in New York. His family is not Orthodox, either. He made that decision while in College, made drastic life changes and moved to Israel. She followed suit after a lot of drama - they broke up when he made his changes because everything was 'wrong' for his faith. As she went through the conversaion process, she did some things that really hurt her family. Whether required or them being over-zealous I don't know, but she told her god-daughter, a child, that she could no longer be her god-mother or support her Catholic faith. She couldn't attend that child's first communion because she couldn't go in the church. Her mom is not 'allowed' to send Christmas gifts or even wishes to her daughter. Neither she nor her husband has a job so it is a real mystery how they support themselves.

They are in the states for the summer, spending part of their time in New York and part of their time here. Both families planned wedding parties/receptions for them since the wedding was in Israel. They sent a two page list of instructions/rules to their families who were planning the receptions stating that they wouldn't even attend the party if their religious instructions were not followed. While the parties are in their honor, some of these rules are not cultural norms for their families or anyone attending and the whole process apparently became a nightmare. The receptions have to be segregated, men and women can't be together. No alcohol. Only certain foods and music. Of course, not on the weekend. Her mother, my friend, honestly about hit breakdown levels of frustration and stress.

So, anyway. Whether these are cultural or religious directives, I don't know. But, she is a recent Catholic convert to Judaism and he is a recent convert to Orthodox Judaism. He has always been Jewish and his parents are Jewish, but not Orthodox.

[Guest Anonymous]

I'm not Jewish, but I know something about Israeli rules. Israel offers automatic citizenship to any Jew or non-Jew with at least one Jewish grandparent who is willing to immigrate there. They call it the Law of Return. A major purpose of that law is to ensure a continued demographic majority, so rightly or wrongly, they require immigrants to prove their Jewish heritage, which involves going before a rabbinical court and convincing the rabbis that they are, in fact, Jewish. I'm not sure what questions they ask, but it seems strange that they would expect a Russian Jew to know any more about the Holocaust than a non-Jew would - after all, it's not like she would have seen it firsthand.

Jews aren't permitted to marry non-Jews in under Orthodox halacha, and such marriages can't be performed in Israel. Mixed marriages performed outside of Israel are recognized, so Israelis in that situation usually fly to Cyprus and get married there. If she wanted to marry a Jewish man in Israel, she had to first establish that she herself was Jewish. Judaism is considered to be inherited through the female line, which means that if her grandmother was Jewish, then her mother (however non-practicing she may have been) is Jewish, and she herself can also be considered Jewish.

From Anna's report, I don't think she was specifically quizzed about the holocaust per se, but it came up when Grandma was asked about her own parents: http://ccostello.blogspot.com/2008/01/w ... pdate.html

[Guest Anonymous]

Must stop endlessly reading her blog, but for those who are interested, here is the rather sad tale of Anna's abusive relationship and her conclusion that the 'Jewish Strategy' is the only route to happy relationships: http://ccostello.blogspot.com/2008/02/d ... ategy.html

[lilah]

Is that Jew by culture or religion? I love learning about Jewish customs, always have! If it's Jew by religion, does that mean someone who converts can then go to Israel and marry a Jew by culture? If not, can Jews who have converted be married in Israel? Or is it only Jews by culture who can marry there?

Orthodox Rabbis only recognize Jews who have descended from the maternal line. If for example your Dad was Jewish but your mom wasn't, you'd have to go through the conversion process in order to be recognized as Jewish by Orthodox rabbis. (Most Reform and Conservative wouldn't care) And the Orthodox conversion process is no walk in the park, you have to do a lot of studying, be questioned by a coucil of Rabbis called a Beit Din and then do a ceremonial conversion in a Mikvah. And I've heard a few stories of converts who traveled to Israel and the Orthodox Beit Din didn't recognize their conversion because it wasn't performed by their exacting standards. (reform and conservative conversions are not recognized because they are a lot more lax)

I'm a reform Jew and I married a gentile. My regular Rabbi wouldn't perform the ceremony because he didn't believe in performing mixed marriages. We were able to get another rabbi to perform the wedding after he had interviewed us to see if we had some idea of how we were going to handle being in a mixed marriage and practice differing religions and raise kids with mixed faith.

[Shirley MacLaine]

It's amazing how many people enter a relationship without a deeper thought than, "whoa, that's a really cute guy/girl, let's start hanging out and see how it goes". See what I mean?

Haha. Oops.

We discuss it from the beginning, often on the first date - which is almost never a movie, because then you don't have freedom to talk and really get to know each other.

OH NO HELP

By having sex with him, I became very emotionally connected and dependent on him. I felt I gave him such a big part of myself I didn't know how to break up without destroying that part of self.

THIS ALWAYS HAPPENS

[pimpom]

So, I read her post on her abusive relationship, and I do feel sorry for her, I truly do. And the thing about thinking so little of yourself that you see men who are interested in you as losers who clearly can't get anything better did hit a nerve...

HOWEVER. What is it with these fundies and their ilk, that always leads them to the following (IMHO flawed) thought process that goes something like this: I tried A, it didn't work, therefore I shall now go back to its radical opposite B (or the tradition-of-the-past B) and completely ignore that there might be a third way, another option, a C, so to speak. Ooh and also, now that I have discovered B, EVERYBODY ELSE must follow B too, and I shall scream it from the rooftops!

Although the fundieworld can be quite depressing, there is no grey....

[fundiefan]

So, I read her post on her abusive relationship, and I do feel sorry for her, I truly do. And the thing about thinking so little of yourself that you see men who are interested in you as losers who clearly can't get anything better did hit a nerve...

HOWEVER. What is it with these fundies and their ilk, that always leads them to the following (IMHO flawed) thought process that goes something like this: I tried A, it didn't work, therefore I shall now go back to its radical opposite B (or the tradition-of-the-past B) and completely ignore that there might be a third way, another option, a C, so to speak. Ooh and also, now that I have discovered B, EVERYBODY ELSE must follow B too, and I shall scream it from the rooftops!

Although the fundieworld can be quite depressing, there is no grey....

No gray, and also no learning from experience. No examining yourself and growing from that. Running away from your own role in negative situations doesn't solve anything. It only creates different situations to have to deal with. Anna had a horrible experience with a boyfriend and that is tragic. But, the answer isn't giving up all sense of herself and what she wants in order to get a good man who won't abuse her. It wasn't the dating process that hurt her. It was an individual, and he saw his way to that in part because of her low self esteem. Poor self image is a singular issue, it's yours alone. If you don't love or like or trust yourself, you cannot expect anyone else to. Instead of learning and trying to improve her self image, she buried it completely and dove head first into a controlled, rule laden doctrine. One where choices are all but eliminated - that way, she won't ever have to make the wrong choice and there won't be consequences because in controlled environments, even consequences are dictated.

The way of life she chose determines everything she does. It's a safe life when you are scared of your own abilities and of making painful decisions.