Quiverful/Fundie history; where did it all start?

[Sola]

I've been thinking about there seems to have been an explosion in the number of families that identify with quiverful, either officially or unofficially, since the 1980/1990s. We're now getting onto second generation fundies and even amongst what could be considered more mainstream fundies, that idea of huge families is catching on. We're now getting couples who were not part of huge families wanting huge families themselves - possibly the Duggar Effect.

 

But where did it all start? And how? I am sure the reasons are not simple, but does anybody have any ideas of the roots of this movement? Does it go back earlier than 1960/1970s? Surely it must, who were the pioneers and how did they come to it?

[ophelia]

I'vs been thinking about that too.

Although we know quite a lot 2nd generation fundies (Josh&Anna; Darth&Noah; etc.) their parents mostly started out as mainstream (conservative) Christians. How did they all turn fundie? What reasons did they have? I only know two pair if fundie parents that already have grown up children and were already raised more or less fundie.. ( the Bontragers and the Yoders)

I think the whole movement started as a counterculture to feminism.

[quinoa mama]

In the 80's Mary Pride wrote "The Way Home". I have heard that book credited as the beginning of the quiverful movement as we know it.

[AmyP]

The idea of having really big families took hold in the late 80's with a vengance in the conservative evangelical churches. It was fully esablished in the 90's, and if anything I think it is winding down with the current generation of young families.

[AmyP]

http://www.home-school.com/Articles/pat ... archy.html

This is an article by Mary Pride, in which she pretty much throws the "patriarchy movement" under the bus. I posted in a while back, but it is worth reading.

[Third]

QF is a belief held by Christians outside of the Patriarchy movement. My family is Catholic and most of my Dad's Aunts and Uncles had 5-10 children and one had over 15 kids more if you count the kids they took in afterwards. I know people who are QF who do not believe in Gotherd - or have never even heard of him ATI, the patriarchy movement etc.

[bananacat]

A lot of this movement was a backlash against feminism in general, and Roe v. Wade specifically. Evangelicals didn't really care about abortion or birth control for a long time and considered that a strictly Catholic thing to even make a big deal about it. They were more about evangelizing, but also somewhat for improving the welfare of everyone, through social programs and charity. I forget the exact events (because I wasn't even alive yet), but somehow it became all about abortion and a weird arrangement was made with "fiscal" conservatives so that as a group, Evangelicals gave up on all the things they previously cared about just to focus on the single issue of abortion.

[bananacat]

QF is a belief held by Christians outside of the Patriarchy movement. My family is Catholic and most of my Dad's Aunts and Uncles had 5-10 children and one had over 15 kids more if you count the kids they took in afterwards. I know people who are QF who do not believe in Gotherd - or have never even heard of him ATI, the patriarchy movement etc.

I don't agree that Catholics with large families are practicing Quiverfull. The intentions are different, and the rules are less strict. For example, Catholics are allowed to use the rhythm method or abstinence to prevent pregnancy, but neither of those are allowed in QF. And the explicit intention of QF is to outbreed all the other groups, which ironically includes Catholics, especially Catholics from Central and South American countries. Just having a lot of kids doesn't automatically make someone QF.

[Loveday]

http://www.home-school.com/Articles/patriarchy-meet-matriarchy.html

This is an article by Mary Pride, in which she pretty much throws the "patriarchy movement" under the bus. I posted in a while back, but it is worth reading.

VERY worthwhile reading. :clap: Thanks for posting it, as I'm new here I'd missed it the first time round.

[fluttershies]

Not using contraception is not the same as being QF - plenty of people go without contraception and pregnancies that happen are accepted, but QF is actively trying for as many babies as possible.

[atheistjd]

I don't agree that Catholics with large families are practicing Quiverfull. The intentions are different, and the rules are less strict. For example, Catholics are allowed to use the rhythm method or abstinence to prevent pregnancy, but neither of those are allowed in QF. And the explicit intention of QF is to outbreed all the other groups, which ironically includes Catholics, especially Catholics from Central and South American countries. Just having a lot of kids doesn't automatically make someone QF.

I have been told, though, by a number of "evangelical" type conservative Catholics that NFP doesn't count if you are using to avoid conception - only if you use it enhance the possibility of conception. Basically, you are never allowed to have a thought of "not this month" or "let's just skip it tonight, I might be ovulating" - like as soon as the thought of avoiding to not get pregnant occurs, you've sinned. I know that is not all Catholics' belief, but there are definitely QF Catholics, even if they don't label themselves as such...

[Third]

I don't agree that Catholics with large families are practicing Quiverfull. The intentions are different, and the rules are less strict. For example, Catholics are allowed to use the rhythm method or abstinence to prevent pregnancy, but neither of those are allowed in QF. And the explicit intention of QF is to outbreed all the other groups, which ironically includes Catholics, especially Catholics from Central and South American countries. Just having a lot of kids doesn't automatically make someone QF.

There is more than one way to be quiverful. Some allow 'natural' forms of birth control and others don't, some allow trying to get pregnant others don't, some agree with adoption some do -- many ways to be QF and QF doesn't automatically mean fundy like the Duggars.

[dairyfreelife]

There is more than one way to be quiverful. Some allow 'natural' forms of birth control and others don't, some allow trying to get pregnant others don't, some agree with adoption some do -- many ways to be QF and QF doesn't automatically mean fundy like the Duggars.

Many Catholics shun birth control, but they never called themselves QF and have never even heard of such a movement. Heck, I know some who can't stand the Duggars. Two of my best friends (they were sisters) were Catholic and were the youngest of seven children. Only the youngest child never entered a public school. Only one was homeschooled in late high school and that was her decision, not the parents, but mom agreed. Many Catholic families I know don't fear school and sent their children to public schools and college. It's not the same as the Duggars at all. There is not a requirement or competition in the number of children they have or trying to take over the government or hiding children from the world nonsense.

The QF movement of Evangelicals isn't the same as what Catholics have done for a long time. QF is new. Catholics shunned the bill and doing NFP instead isn't.

[Third]

Many Catholics shun birth control, but they never called themselves QF and have never even heard of such a movement. Heck, I know some who can't stand the Duggars. Two of my best friends (they were sisters) were Catholic and were the youngest of seven children. Only the youngest child never entered a public school. Only one was homeschooled in late high school and that was her decision, not the parents, but mom agreed. Many Catholic families I know don't fear school and sent their children to public schools and college. It's not the same as the Duggars at all. There is not a requirement or competition in the number of children they have or trying to take over the government or hiding children from the world nonsense.

The QF movement of Evangelicals isn't the same as what Catholics have done for a long time. QF is new. Catholics shunned the bill and doing NFP instead isn't.

The Duggar style QF is much different than the QF people I know who can range from Catholic to Baptist etc. Those children get to seem to have normal educations, outside friends, churches, after school activities and don't seem to have to raise their siblings.

[mrs]

I agree, Mary Prides book was a important date in the evolution and adoption of quiverfull.

I think some additional contributing external factors are:

~the first generation of parents grew up during the period of desegregation, race riots, and the social tension.

~they grew up hearing about `the good `ol days` when a woman did not have a choice to be stay at home mom,

there parents(ex- grandma Duggar) reap the post WWII economic benefits, and created this "perfect traditional family" image of the 50's

~The early eighties were hit hard by the an economic recession.

1. High interest and inflation, could have been a driving factor to live a debt free lifestyle.

2. Unstable energy prices/crisis, could drive people to live in isolation (we see it today with the preppers/survivalist). I have had many discussions with my husband about how fundies and survivalist/ off the grid homestead living families seem to overlap(but that for another thread)

3. More and more women choosing to enter the work force, and thus a 'backlash' could be perceived to those women who choose to stay home. (these 1st generation mothers choose to stay home, I belive that having the ability to exercise the "CHOICE" to stay home is an act feminism.)

~I think cable tv could have been external factor as well. CNN debuted in 1980. The overwhelming amount of negative news stories, could contribute to the idea of being being "in the world but not of the world" (or is it the other way around?).

[Coconut Flan]

All very interesting thoughts. I lived through it but think I was so concerned with my own family I missed a lot of the early history. We flirted with a couple of evangelical churches during that time, but they managed to scare us off.

http://www.home-school.com/Articles/pat ... archy.html

This is an article by Mary Pride, in which she pretty much throws the "patriarchy movement" under the bus. I posted in a while back, but it is worth reading.

Thank you so much. That is a very interesting article and I wish every patriarchy follower could read it and fully comprehend it.

[Witsec7]

The Full Gospel Business Mens Asn. est in the early 1950's began to eschew BC (pentecostal and evangelical following) post WW2 as a means of advancing the patriarchy and removing women from the work place post WW2. With their ties to business and industry and their growing influence in politics (behind the scenes), groups such as this began to promote an anti feminist agenda, long before the word was popular in mass culture. (Howard Phillips had a hand in this.) Its a very complicated web, that starts in the '20s. Once you tie religion and salvation to a political process and economics there is a lot more at 'risk' for not jumping on the bandwagon. As the movement progressed women we given the ability to do their masters bidding and further the cause.

[bananacat]

There is more than one way to be quiverful. Some allow 'natural' forms of birth control and others don't, some allow trying to get pregnant others don't, some agree with adoption some do -- many ways to be QF and QF doesn't automatically mean fundy like the Duggars.

No, I disagree. Quiverfull is a specific movement based on a specific goal. There aren't many ways to do it, only a few. Like I said already, just having a lot of kids doesn't automatically a family QF. Just not using birth control doesn't automatically make a family QF. QF is a specific movement and it's closely tied to the Patriarchy movement and the larger fundie movement. Once more, just having a lot of kids (even for religious reasons) does not automatically means a family is QF.

[bananacat]

The Duggar style QF is much different than the QF people I know who can range from Catholic to Baptist etc. Those children get to seem to have normal educations, outside friends, churches, after school activities and don't seem to have to raise their siblings.

I'll make this is as clear as possible. The people you are labeling QF, do they actually use that label for themselves? I doubt it. I've never known a Catholic who used that label, not even Rick Santorum. Just because they have a lot of kids and don't use birth control does not automatically make them QF. The Baptist ones may use the QF label because the movement grew out of IFB. But QF is more than just having lots of babies and these people you claim to know don't automatically fall into that category.

[Austin]

I don't agree that Catholics with large families are practicing Quiverfull. The intentions are different, and the rules are less strict. For example, Catholics are allowed to use the rhythm method or abstinence to prevent pregnancy, but neither of those are allowed in QF. And the explicit intention of QF is to outbreed all the other groups, which ironically includes Catholics, especially Catholics from Central and South American countries. Just having a lot of kids doesn't automatically make someone QF.

I agree. My husband was raised Catholic and he also grew up and went to Catholic school in area that was ethnically Catholic (Irish and Polish, mostly) and his family, with just three children was an anomaly. Many of his neighborhood friends and classmates were in families of 8, 10, and even 12 children. But they were not QF; eschewing birth control is just part of the Catholic religion, not really about child- quiver-collecting.

[ShadowyOne]

VERY worthwhile reading. :clap: Thanks for posting it, as I'm new here I'd missed it the first time round.

Seconded. I found it very enlightening that the "founder" of this movement derides the most damaging facets of the patriarchy belief system (with very cogent arguments made from the perspective "inside" the homeschool/SAHM movement, which might be better received than arguments from the outside). It should be required reading for all of the proponents of patriarchy.

[Anise]

A lot of the current movement was shaped by Rushdooney in the 1970s. He promoted homeschooling for conservative Christian families and ideas of Christian Reconstructionism (and I'm sure the Quiverful Movement came out of those ideas- it wouldn't be the first time reproduction has been used to get more political power).

[dairyfreelife]

The Duggar style QF is much different than the QF people I know who can range from Catholic to Baptist etc. Those children get to seem to have normal educations, outside friends, churches, after school activities and don't seem to have to raise their siblings.

QF is a new movement based larger on David's words in Psalms 127 about being blessed with a QF of children. The goal is to have lots of children as warriors for God. QF is what the Duggars practice, though they deny it and would also deny they belong to a cult when most of us well-read know better. Having lots of children and shunning birth control does not=Quiverfull. You are equating a new phenomenon with an old practice. Having lots of children alone, even for religious purpose, does not mean one is a part of the QF movement. The Catholic family I know with seven kids would look at you like you were crazy if you discussed the Quiverfull movement and quoted Psalms 127 to them about warriors and arrows in the quiver and taking over the gov't with large numbers of children.

[fakepigtails73]

No idea about quiverfull, but fundies as a force in the GOP landscape is due in part to the so-called "Moral Majority" group in the early 80s, helmed by either Falwell or Robertson (I dunno witch). Coupled that with Reagan using them to get into the WH in '8o...

[Third]

I'll make this is as clear as possible. The people you are labeling QF, do they actually use that label for themselves? I doubt it. I've never known a Catholic who used that label, not even Rick Santorum. Just because they have a lot of kids and don't use birth control does not automatically make them QF. The Baptist ones may use the QF label because the movement grew out of IFB. But QF is more than just having lots of babies and these people you claim to know don't automatically fall into that category.

You don't have to act like I don't understand you or that I am lying.

Yes, the people I know use the term QF. The way it was explained to me is there are lots of ways to be QF. When I asked anyway since I was confused how they could all claim to be QF and have vastly different core beliefs.

It's possible QF has a wider definition and the Duggar way of being QF isn't the only way.