God values the lives of unborn babies and infants

[formergothardite]

This was inspired by simplyme's post about being pro-life and giving a fetus a chance and that this is supported by the Bible. Well, from my reading of the bible, it appears that the God who created the world didn't really give a crap about unborn babies or small infants/children.

Lets see:

~With the flood He killed countless unborn babies, infants, children along with cute kittens and puppies. And he killed them in a pretty darn horrible way. Drowning isn't fun.

~In Egypt he sent plagues that most likely harmed unborn babies, infants, and children.

~He then proceded to kill the first born sons which probably included small babies and children.

~In Sodom and Gomorrah God kills pregnant women, infants and children.

And this is not all the times that God didn't seem to care about the unborn, infants and children. Thoughts?

[slickcat79]

Agreed. I'm pretty sure god also commanded his armies, when they went to enemy territory, to cut open pregnant women and dash their babies on the rocks. So god didn't care too much about the unborn if their parents were not Believers.

Additionally, the bible says many christians interpret the bible to say that god knows you in the womb before you are even born (even if he only referred to a specific person). Many people who believe in god believe that he has a plan for their lives, and a plan for every life. I think the Duggars had up a quote a Jubilee's service about how no foot is too small to leave a mark on the world. By that logic, every woman who has a spontaneous abortion does so by god's plan. If you truly believe that god dictates the steps of every person's life from the moment of conception, then god is the biggest abortion provider in the history of the christian world.

[emmiedahl]

Additionally, the bible says that god knows you in the womb before you are even born.

No, the Bible says that he knew *one particular person* before he was born. A prophet who was very special to God and had a special purpose. It does not say that this is applied to everyone. In fact, it suggests that because this made that person special, God does not feel that way about some random fetus.

[formergothardite]

I know that a lot of pro-lifers say that none of this counts since it is in the Old Testament, but really, all these things were done by the God who supposedly created life. Yet He was not only okay with telling his people to kill pregnant women and babies, He caused it to happen Himself many times. So why in the world would the God who created the world, killed unborn babies numerous times, be pro-life?

Edited because one of my sentences made no sense.

[dcmhejbl62]

... just not the lives of the mothers who carry them.

[formergothardite]

... just not the lives of the mothers who carry them.

It seems like God didn't value the mothers or the fetuses or even babies that were already born. God isn't really pro-life, more of a do what I say or I will smite you kind of guy. It doesn't make sense to claim to be pro-life because of the Bible, when the Bible shows God killing pregnant women and babies left and right.

[debrand]

I know that a lot of pro-lifers say that none of this counts since it is in the Old Testament, but really, all these things were done by the God who supposedly created life. Yet He was not only okay with telling his people to kill pregnant women and babies, He caused it to happen Himself many times. So why in the world would the God who created the world, killed unborn babies numerous times, be pro-life?

Edited because one of my sentences made no sense.

The bible states that god is the same today, yesterday and forever(can't remember which verse) The only way that Christians can dodge the genocide in the Old Testament is to say that God's morality changes. Considering that many Christians believe that their diety will throw them into a place of eternal torture if they fail to obey him, they need to believe that his rules are unchanging. If it was all right for Old Testament god to kill little babies and children, it should be okay for him to do so now.

Revelation suggest that people who do not take a certain mark will be unable to buy food. However if they get the mark, they will be tortured for ever. Supposedly, parents will have to watch their children starve to death.

(Not all Christians believe in hell. Some people believe that the antiChrist of Revelation is Nero and not a future person. I am not trying to lump all Christians together)

[sriracha]

I really don't know why pro-lifers use the Bible as any kind of justification, the entire overarching theme of the thing is human sacrifice and bloodshed. Their "god" causes miscarriages on a constant basis, among other things.

That said, the god of the old testament asked Abram to murder his own son and the guy's answer is "OK!" Further on down, we see that the penalty for causing a miscarriage is peanuts.

And then there are stories of more murders, rapes, human slavery, genocides, beating and killing kids, until we get to the new testament where Jesus says precisely NOTHING about abortion despite the fact that it has been a regular practice since humans figured out various ways to go about it. You'd think that if it were an issue, Jesus would have had *something* to say on it, yet he's curiously silent.

No, "god" does not value human lives at all, considering that now and throughout history the vast majority of extant populations live in abject suffering and poverty. In a world where as many as 30,000 children starve to death every day, I think it's safe to say that god doesn't give two fucks.

debrand: good points.

[crazyforkate]

He made Jesus' kid an orphan!

/Iamgoingtohell

[emmiedahl]

Another thing to consider is that someone else's Bible should not affect general law. I love Torah as much as the next Jew, but I don't see it as a handbook for non-Jewish existence. If Christians want to live by Jewish laws, fine, but don't push it on others. Like, I personally would not have an abortion in certain circumstances because of my own religious beliefs, but I have no judgments on how other people make their medical decisions and I certainly want no part in legislating my own beliefs.

My beliefs on the intersection of religion and politics can be summed up as: If you are against abortion, don't have one. If you are against gay marriage, don't marry a gay person. But don't let your Bible get in the way of someone else's choices.

[slickcat79]

No, the Bible says that he knew *one particular person* before he was born. A prophet who was very special to God and had a special purpose. It does not say that this is applied to everyone. In fact, it suggests that because this made that person special, God does not feel that way about some random fetus.

Thanks, emmie :)

[formergothardite]

Hopefully the members here who are pro-life because of the Bible will chime in on this thread.

[Austin]

Another thing to consider is that someone else's Bible should not affect general law. I love Torah as much as the next Jew, but I don't see it as a handbook for non-Jewish existence. If Christians want to live by Jewish laws, fine, but don't push it on others. Like, I personally would not have an abortion in certain circumstances because of my own religious beliefs, but I have no judgments on how other people make their medical decisions and I certainly want no part in legislating my own beliefs.

My beliefs on the intersection of religion and politics can be summed up as: If you are against abortion, don't have one. If you are against gay marriage, don't marry a gay person. But don't let your Bible get in the way of someone else's choices.

:clap:

[dcmhejbl62]

A little OT, but great quote:

"Any time you mix religion and politics, you get politics."

(Saw it in the comment section on a blog. Not sure if it is original or not)

[margiebargie]

:clap:

hear, hear.

[Conuly]

~In Egypt he sent plagues that most likely harmed unborn babies, infants, and children.

And don't forget the part that everybody glosses over when discussing the Passover story - GOD is the one who made Pharaoh say no to Moses's fairly reasonable request.

http://www.openbible.info/topics/moses_and_pharaoh

I'm sure God had his reasons... :roll:

[formergothardite]

God purposely killed pregnant women, infants and small children in horrible ways, yet an abortion is bad? It makes no sense. If God really valued life, He wouldn't have done those things. The Bible shows that time after time God doesn't put any value at all on pregnant women, infants, and children. So the anti-abortion people are saying that they care more about the unborn than God does.

[debrand]

If you don't follow God with joy and gladness, he will cause you to eat your children! Some people get around unpleasant bible verses by saying that the Old Testament is simply reporting what happened. In this instance, it is clear, god is doing the cursing.

Deu 28:57 Because thou servedst not the LORD thy God with joyfulness, and with gladness of heart, for the abundance of all [things;...

Deu 28:53 And thou shalt eat the fruit of thine own body, the flesh of thy sons and of thy daughters, which the LORD thy God hath given thee, in the siege, and in the straitness, wherewith thine enemies shall distress thee:

http://www.blueletterbible.org/Bible.cfm?b=Deu&c=28#53

[PuddlePirate]

“When men strive together and hit a pregnant woman, so that her children come out, but there is no harm, the one who hit her shall surely be fined, as the woman's husband shall impose on him, and he shall pay as the judges determine. But if there is harm, then you shall pay life for life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot, burn for burn, wound for wound, stripe for stripe. "

You've damaged my property and you will pay!

*wow*

[uber frau]

God is a right-wing republican who opposes State aided health-care and welfare. He only values the lives of upper-middle class, white, conservative Protestant foetuses and infants.

[rezski44]

Another thing to consider is that someone else's Bible should not affect general law. I love Torah as much as the next Jew, but I don't see it as a handbook for non-Jewish existence. If Christians want to live by Jewish laws, fine, but don't push it on others. Like, I personally would not have an abortion in certain circumstances because of my own religious beliefs, but I have no judgments on how other people make their medical decisions and I certainly want no part in legislating my own beliefs.

My beliefs on the intersection of religion and politics can be summed up as: If you are against abortion, don't have one. If you are against gay marriage, don't marry a gay person. But don't let your Bible get in the way of someone else's choices.

So true and I would add "How strong are your beliefs if you need the force of law to follow them?"

[koolmom]

God is a right-wing republican who opposes State aided health-care and welfare. He only values the lives of upper-middle class, white, conservative Protestant foetuses and infants.

As the late great Ed McMahon used to say, "You are correct, sir!"

[formergothardite]

“When men strive together and hit a pregnant woman, so that her children come out, but there is no harm, the one who hit her shall surely be fined, as the woman's husband shall impose on him, and he shall pay as the judges determine. But if there is harm, then you shall pay life for life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot, burn for burn, wound for wound, stripe for stripe. "

You've damaged my property and you will pay!

*wow*

and hit a pregnant woman, so that her children come out, but there is no harm

So making a pregnant woman miscarry is not considered harmful?

ETA: Next time we have a pro-lifer shows up to declare the Bible shows a fetus is as valuable as a real baby, I am so dragging up this verse.

[AudreyE]

God values the lives of unborn babies when they come from *Godly* families. In that sense, there's really no conflict with fundies being pro-choice. They should pack up, go home, and not abort their own snowflake babies.

[slickcat79]

I was actually behind a car this morning that had a giant "God is Pro Life" bumper sticker on it, along with a decal for the local catholic high school (they are the crusaders, naturally).

It made me think of this thread, and wonder if she'd actually read the bible...