God values the lives of unborn babies and infants

[emmiedahl]

No. What I was talking about is the Bible is silent on a monetary value, which is what that verse is talking about.

All of the people over one month have a value and are counted in the census. The fetuses and newly born are not. That says something. Not only is a fetus not considered a human, it is given less value than a sheep or a piece of cloth.

I am against using my personal religion to oppress others. But if you want to oppress others according to your personal religious beliefs, you should at least have firm religious footing, right? So, what parts of the Bible authoritatively state that a fetus is a full human being? This is a Bible that specifies things like contact with menstrual blood, the nature of the hooves on your farm animals, and whether you can mix fabrics. So, if abortion is murder (murder being something that is discussed endlessly in the Old Testament), then surely God firmly set down in clear language that it is.

Even if it's there, you still should not expect others to live by your own religious laws. But for internal consistency in your own faith, there should be a passage that says something like: aborting your fetus or causing a miscarriage of your own fetus is wrong. The practice was common at the time (and even discussed in the Bible as something that *should* happen in some cases), so?

[formergothardite]

How blessed will be the one who seizes and dashes your little ones Against the rock. Psalm 137:9

Blessings are put upon soldiers who dash in the heads of babies/small children. Oh yes, God valued babies/children so much. :roll:

[Guest Anonymous]

How blessed will be the one who seizes and dashes your little ones Against the rock. Psalm 137:9

Blessings are put upon soldiers who dash in the heads of babies/small children. Oh yes, God valued babies/children so much. :roll:

Don't forget what happened when some children made fun of the prophet Elisha's bald head. God sent bears to tear 42 of them into bloody bits.

[formergothardite]

Don't forget what happened when some children made fun of the prophet Elisha's bald head. God sent bears to tear 42 of them into bloody bits.

Well that could be explained that God killed them for being mean, a little harsh IMO. But the times God has his people kill babies or kill all non-virgins (which will mean some of those women will be pregnant), God is killing them just for being born to the wrong parents. And since God supposedly controls everything, He put them in that spot and knew that they were going to die either before birth or soon afterwards. The God of the Bible is harsh, cruel and cares little for the lives of unborn babies and infants. He has no qualms with killing them in horrible ways should it suit him.

So to say that God cares about the unborn babies would mean that he has changed and if God can change, then how do we know he hasn't changed back?

[treemom]

How is this asshat back again?

Jericho, I would have simply flown to another country to have my abortion because it was the right thing to do and I had the money to do so, the only thing outlawing abortions does is prey upon the poor who then are at risk from back alley abortions.

eta: corrected ipad typo

[Guest Anonymous]

Jericho, Treemom is right. Outlawing abortion will not eliminate it, all it will do is drive it underground and incidentally, turn pregnant women into medical haves and have-nots. The haves will either fly to a country where abortion remains legal, or pay extortionate sums to licensed, but underground, obstetricians to have abortions. The have-nots will risk their health and lives having back-alley procedures or DIY abortions at home.

[Witsec7]

Jericho, Treemom is right. Outlawing abortion will not eliminate it, all it will do is drive it underground and incidentally, turn pregnant women into medical haves and have-nots. The haves will either fly to a country where abortion remains legal, or pay extortionate sums to licensed, but underground, obstetricians to have abortions. The have-nots will risk their health and lives having back-alley procedures or DIY abortions at home.

QFT

I drove women to back alley abortions before abortion was legal. My elder cousin worked for an OB and assisted at abortions provided at a high price to women of privilege.

[JesusFightClub]

Intrigued to note that God and Peter Singer, who I invoke sometimes here, apparently share views as to the value of a less than month old baby. I dunno what this means, apart from "FJ! It's like the learning never stops." ;)

Seriously Jericho are you ever going to do the radical thing of, I dunno, answering questions honestly? Why do you lot just dance around topics? Ashamed to own up to your beliefs?

[formergothardite]

I really want to know where exactly it says in the Bible that God cares about all of the unborn fetuses just as much as He cares about people who are already born. And since God has a history of bashing in the heads of babies and killing pregnant women, even if there is a verse that says he cares, he must care, very, very little. So it seems abortion would be right up his ally. Killing off the heathen spawn.

[longskirtlotsakids]

[

But as a simplified answer to everything else, God is a God of love but also a God of justice. When you break his commands, expect discipline. Before Christ's sacrifice on the Cross, that discipline many times was death.

WHat the hell? What the hell could an INFANT do to incur God's wrath so bad that he she must be dashed against a stone till dead? Or did God just go head and "knit the baby" in the womb specifically so it could teach ints parents a lesson?

[jericho]

Intrigued to note that God and Peter Singer, who I invoke sometimes here, apparently share views as to the value of a less than month old baby. I dunno what this means, apart from "FJ! It's like the learning never stops." ;)

Seriously Jericho are you ever going to do the radical thing of, I dunno, answering questions honestly? Why do you lot just dance around topics? Ashamed to own up to your beliefs?

Here is honesty. I don't know all the answers. I hope you will respect me for saying that and also appreciate that this topic is helping me to seek out the answers and become more knowledgeable about why I believe what I believe.

[valsa]

Here is honesty. I don't know all the answers. I hope you will respect me for saying that and also appreciate that this topic is helping me to seek out the answers and become more knowledgeable about why I believe what I believe.

No one respects you when you support throwing women and doctors in jail for your personal belief that you don't even have a basis for.

[formergothardite]

What Valsa said. Why should we respect you for wanting to make something illegal, tear mothers/fathers from their families and put them in jail for life all over something that you can't even back up. The Bible shows a God who cares very little for many, many babies and pregnant women. God has probably killed more fetuses than abortion has.

[silvia]

Here is honesty. I don't know all the answers. I hope you will respect me for saying that and also appreciate that this topic is helping me to seek out the answers and become more knowledgeable about why I believe what I believe.

It's great you're admitting "I don't know all the answers," though this smaller admission seems like a substitute for a larger admission you don't want to make--that you suspect, on some level, that you may be wrong. And when you say you want to "become more knowledgeable about why I believe what I believe," it sounds to me like you are looking for new and more effective ways to justify a belief system that you don't intend to change, despite ample evidence of its flaws. It smells like classic cart-before-the-horse reasoning: establish your conclusion first, then find facts to support it later. Someone actually out to find the truth wouldn't speak of becoming more knowledgeable about justifications for their already-existing beliefs, but of seeking out a belief system that accords with reality and available evidence.

[SimplyMe]

I don't have the time to do this thread justice and have therefore hesitated to even comment despite the fact it was started in response to one of my posts. I would ask though that before posting a few verses here and there to support the idea that God doesn't value fetuses or infants and recommends they have their heads hashed on rocks, please read the passages in their entirety, research their origin and translation- you will find they have been grossly used out of context in this thread. For example Psalm 137:9- it's not a commandment by God, it's the psalmist writing of the Babylonian captivity. The Psalmist is in exile and had probably witnessed the atrocities committed against his people, babies included.  In the revenge-style that was so common at the time, he wishes the same upon his enemy as a description of their utter destruction.  Nowhere does it say that God approves of the Psalmist’s request or that he fulfilled it.

Likewise many pro-life advocates use verses taken horribly out of context. It's important (if you're going to argue a point based on specific verses) to read books of the bible in their entirety to get an understanding of the context, the author and the author's intent. From that, you can more accurately get a picture of God's heart or at the very least make a more educated argument.

Even if I had time to properly address each and every verse thrown out in this thread (which I don't!), I'm not going to spend my time arguing with people who imply that all Christians are dumb, don't read their bibles, have no independent thought and have no critical thinking skills. I thought this board touts its openness to people of all beliefs and backgrounds and isn't about bashing one another's beliefs. I don't believe that anywhere in my post about the movie Courageous did I talk about criminalizing abortion- I simply said that it shouldn't come as a surprise that SBC would take a pro-life stand as many (yes, you all successfully pointed out that not ALL Christian churches take a pro-life stand) Christian churches do.

[formergothardite]

I don't think all Christians are dumb and don't read their Bibles, but I think a good portion just believe what they have been told the Bible says without really looking at it. There are many Christians on here that I respect and admire.

Neither you or Jericho have offered verses that show God places high value on a fetus. If the Bible clearly states that a fetus is a human and god values it's life, it should be easy to prove that.

Also in my original post, I pointed out that God killed countless babies and pregnant women in the flood and in the plagues on Egypt. If a fetus is so valuable to God, why kill it? He killed pregnant women, infants and children in horrible, horrible ways. How does that show he values them? Is there only certain ones he values? And if so, how do you not know the aborted ones are ones he would be okay with killing.

Also, I think it is pretty clear that we aren't open and accepting of all beliefs. Making abortion illegal, saying women should submit to men, and gays shouldn't marry are not going to be recieved with open arms.

[formergothardite]

I'm very glad you that you dont' want to make abortion illegal, though. People being pro-life in their own personal lives is totally different than trying to force their beliefs on others.

[treemom]

Here is honesty. I don't know all the answers. I hope you will respect me for saying that and also appreciate that this topic is helping me to seek out the answers and become more knowledgeable about why I believe what I believe.

Here is where I suggest you begin, women have a right to medical privacy.

[emmiedahl]

Here is honesty. I don't know all the answers. I hope you will respect me for saying that and also appreciate that this topic is helping me to seek out the answers and become more knowledgeable about why I believe what I believe.

I do respect that. Absolutely. Please do that research before voting for a pro-life candidate. I am curious, are you going to research with an open mind or just look for more ways to justify your current position? The Bible does not exist solely to back up your personal beliefs. You can probably scan through and find something vague and nonspecific, but you know what you won't find? Anything suggesting that abortion is murder or even morally wrong.

It's fine if you are against it personally just because it squicks you out. But legislating your sensibilities is not okay. If the Bible, science and modern medicine all agree that abortion is not murder or a moral wrong, then it should be allowed. Your religious leaders know what is in that book, and they are telling you that there is a Biblical justification for the pro-life stance while knowing that they are misleading the flock. It is appalling when you think about it, because most Christians believe in this anti-Biblical theology and vote on its basis.

SimplyMe, you have actually supported our position by showing that indeed the passage praises the killing of babies as a means of revenge against their tribe. We aren't taking things out of context; you provided a context which supports our interpretation of the passage, even if unmeaningly. If you believe that the Bible is the literal, authoritative, infallible word of God, then yes, you believe that God approved the messages within.

[dcmhejbl62]

If Roe V. Wade was overturned, yes. Also the doctor who performed it.

What should happen to the man who co-created the baby who is aborted?

[dcmhejbl62]

I didn't see the exact quote about under a month old children. But as a simplified answer to everything else, God is a God of love but also a God of justice. When you break his commands, expect discipline...

... from God. Not us.

[emmiedahl]

What should happen to the man who co-created the baby who is aborted?

He should get a financial settlement from the whore who defrauded him, tempted him into sexual sin and then killed his baby, of course.

[formergothardite]

I do respect that. Absolutely. Please do that research before voting for a pro-life candidate. I am curious, are you going to research with an open mind or just look for more ways to justify your current position? The Bible does not exist solely to back up your personal beliefs. You can probably scan through and find something vague and nonspecific, but you know what you won't find? Anything suggesting that abortion is murder or even morally wrong.

It's fine if you are against it personally just because it squicks you out. But legislating your sensibilities is not okay. If the Bible, science and modern medicine all agree that abortion is not murder or a moral wrong, then it should be allowed. Your religious leaders know what is in that book, and they are telling you that there is a Biblical justification for the pro-life stance while knowing that they are misleading the flock. It is appalling when you think about it, because most Christians believe in this anti-Biblical theology and vote on its basis.

SimplyMe, you have actually supported our position by showing that indeed the passage praises the killing of babies as a means of revenge against their tribe. We aren't taking things out of context; you provided a context which supports our interpretation of the passage, even if unmeaningly. If you believe that the Bible is the literal, authoritative, infallible word of God, then yes, you believe that God approved the messages within.

Exactly, no where does God say "Hey now, that is bad, bad bad. Bashing babies on rocks is bad." By not speaking out against such things in a book that is supposed to be His divine message to the world. He is passively supporting it.

[dcmhejbl62]

God manages to put a value on everything else, but somehow manages to say silent about newborns and fetuses? For a guy who went into a ton of details about stuff, it is fairly telling that He manages to, oops, forget to mention what a newborn or fetus is worth.

Jericho, I am Christian, albeit with a more liberal take on things than most, and one thing I used to wonder is -- if things like abortion and homosexuality and women in leadership were indeed so important that the church of today is supposed to wage an all-out battle against them, why didn't Jesus mention them at all?

"God assumed everyone would know that He's pro-life, or anti-homosexuality, because they are such important issues, so Jesus didn't need to mention them --"... I don't know. If God is really omni-this and omni-that, He would have foreseen our struggles with these issues today, would He not? Why not end the speculation once and for all, so we could spend more time loving each other and spreading the gospel, etc.?

I mean, in many circles, these are sins that result in condemnation to hell, for heaven's sake. These are not considered minor issues. If He really loves us, why not be as specific as possible, so we have the best shot of going to heaven? Why would God test us on such important issues? Frankly it sounds a little like fraternity hazing, or military boot-camp, designed to weed people out.

That doesn't sound very divine to me.

[dcmhejbl62]

Here is honesty. I don't know all the answers. I hope you will respect me for saying that and also appreciate that this topic is helping me to seek out the answers and become more knowledgeable about why I believe what I believe.

Always a good thing. ; )