God values the lives of unborn babies and infants

[debrand]

I've heard some Christians justify those verses by saying that god, the giver of live, can take away life but because humans didn't create life, we can't take life. It is a horrible and twisted excuse for their god's cruelty. These same people will often insist that god is good and kind despite the fact that they are shown verses showing how vindictive and mean their diety can be. When pressed, they will state that they can't know the mind of god which is their way of shutting down their minds. Oh, but abortion is still not biblical. :doh:

The Romans used to leave their unwanted newborns exposed to the elements. Although I have heard that some Christians adopted those babies, there is nothing in the New Testament condeming such a practice. If abortion is such a horrible crime against god, wouldn't infanticide be as evil? Why is there no bible verse against the practice? Neither Paul(who lived among Romans) nor Jesus speak about it.

Paul took the time to tell women to be silent in church, yet he couldn't write a verse saying that letting babies starve to death is wrong?

[jericho]

and hit a pregnant woman, so that her children come out, but there is no harm

So making a pregnant woman miscarry is not considered harmful?

ETA: Next time we have a pro-lifer shows up to declare the Bible shows a fetus is as valuable as a real baby, I am so dragging up this verse.

How does this verse contradict that a fetus is a baby? It talks about the penalty of hurting an unborn child.

[emmiedahl]

How does this verse contradict that a fetus is a baby? It talks about the penalty of hurting an unborn child.

It considers the fetus property and poses a fine--the punishment for a property crime--rather than the eye-for-an-eye punishment that comes if a person (the mother) is harmed.

[formergothardite]

How does this verse contradict that a fetus is a baby? It talks about the penalty of hurting an unborn child.

Because it says that if you hit a pregnant woman so that she loses her child, BUT there is not harm the husband can fine him. So hitting a woman and the only thing that happens is that she loses the pregancy is not considered harm. But as the verse continues that if there is harm (and it appears that this harm would not be causing her children to come out, it would be other harm to the woman) then it will be a life for a life and all that.

So just hitting a woman and causing her children to come out is not considered harm. It doesn't say if you hit a woman and cause her children to come out it will be a life for a life. It does not appear that the fetus is considered a life.

And it also appears with the rest of this thread, God doesn't really give a crap about unborn babies, infants, and children. He will kill them left and right and get His people to do the same.

[debrand]

I think that the reason that many Christians believe that abortion is against their faith is because they've been told that abortion is against their faith. They aren't basing their beliefs on the actual bible but on what they want it to say.

I think that a lot of modern Christains consider biblical has actually nothing to do with the bible.

[formergothardite]

The more I read the bible the more I realize that all the stuff I was taught (especially by Gothard) isn't in there.

[formergothardite]

Jericho, how exactly does that verse show that the punishment for killing a fetus is the same as killing a person who is already born? Because as you have pointed out on other threads, unless one is going to treat the termination of a pregnancy exactly as the killing of a person who is already born, the argument against abortion falls apart. This passage from the Bible does not treat forcing a woman to lose a pregnancy the same as if they have killed the woman, so it appears the argument that the Bible treats a fetus like a person falls apart.

[debrand]

Jericho, how exactly does that verse show that the punishment for killing a fetus is the same as killing a person who is already born?

Jericho, perhaps you are not prolife, however, if you are, how do you view the verses about killing a fetus?

[formergothardite]

Oh, he is the one who wants to put women who had abortions in jail for murder.

[jericho]

Because it says that if you hit a pregnant woman so that she loses her child, BUT there is not harm the husband can fine him. So hitting a woman and the only thing that happens is that she loses the pregancy is not considered harm. But as the verse continues that if there is harm (and it appears that this harm would not be causing her children to come out, it would be other harm to the woman) then it will be a life for a life and all that.

So just hitting a woman and causing her children to come out is not considered harm. It doesn't say if you hit a woman and cause her children to come out it will be a life for a life. It does not appear that the fetus is considered a life.

And it also appears with the rest of this thread, God doesn't really give a crap about unborn babies, infants, and children. He will kill them left and right and get His people to do the same.

I checked some biblical commentaries on this and it appears that this is not talking about abortion but rather a premature birth. The original Hebrew language refers to no harm to mother OR child. Here's a link to more detailed explanation.

http://www.christiancourier.com/article ... n-abortion

[emmiedahl]

Jericho, Jews do not consider abortion a murder because of that passage and others. Are you saying that some convenient translation from a guy trying to prove a point is worth more than millions of people who actually speak Hebrew? What are his credentials, since he apparently speaks Hebrew better than the actual Hebrews?

We have many words for losing a pregnancy, even in English. One of them is used in this passage.

The irony. Jericho wants to force his religion on us, but he does not actually care what the Bible says about fetuses.

You just want the evil sluts to suffer, Jericho. Admit it.

[debrand]

Jericho, I noticed that the article quotes Christian scholars. Wouldn't it make better sense to read how Jewish peopel who speak Hebrew translate the passage?

[formergothardite]

And here is a website that disagrees with that.

http://www.prochoiceactionnetwork-canad ... ible.shtml

[formergothardite]

An interesting passage from that website:

"...all the first-born males of the people of Israel, from a month old and upward..." (Numbers 3:40)

God also tells Moses how to calculate the value of persons being offered to God:

"If the person is from a month old up to five years old, your valuation shall be for a male five shekels of silver, and for a female your valuation shall be three shekels of silver." (Leviticus 27:6)

Mercifully, we've learned not to put price tags on peoples' heads anymore—no thanks to God. But the fact that God assigns no value whatsoever to newborn infants or fetuses means that "God-fearing" anti-choicers are openly defying their God!

Newborns and fetues don't appear to have the same value as a one month old in God's eyes.

[emmiedahl]

From an endnote:

Some conservative Biblical scholars have disputed the translation of the word "miscarriage" in the Exodus 21:22-25 passage, claiming it means "premature birth." This is indefensible, however. First, the original Hebrew word is "yatsa" which literally means to "lose her offspring". Second, premature births in the ancient world resulted in almost certain death for the fetus/infant, since only modern medicine can save premature babies. Third, other scholars have shown that the passage was derived directly from more ancient pagan laws, which clearly referred to miscarriage. The Code of Hammurabi (209, 210) reads: "If a seignior struck a[notherl seignior's daughter and has caused her to have a miscarriage [literally, caused her to drop that of her womb], he shall pay ten shekels of silver for her fetus. If that woman had died, they shall put his daughter to death." Hittite Laws (1.17) read: "If anyone causes a free woman to miscarry [literally, drives out the embryo], if (it is) the 10th month, he shall give 10 shekels of silver, if (it is) the 5th month, he shall give 5 shekels of silver..." (Bowen Ward, 1987)

[formergothardite]

Silly Emmie, you Jews killed Jesus, obviously you can't be trusted to translate your own Holy books. Just listen to the Christians and all will be okay.

[silvia]

I think that the reason that many Christians believe that abortion is against their faith is because they've been told that abortion is against their faith. They aren't basing their beliefs on the actual bible but on what they want it to say.

Bingo!

[emmiedahl]

Silly Emmie, you Jews killed Jesus, obviously you can't be trusted to translate your own Holy books. Just listen to the Christians and all will be okay.

And everyone knows that the Bible is an English document that was written in 1611. Before that, it was all the darkness of paganism. :lol:

[jericho]

There's only one way to solve this. Have the Christian and Hebrew scholars go head to head in 7 Lincoln/Douglas style debates.

[formergothardite]

And everyone knows that the Bible is an English document that was written in 1611. Before that, it was all the darkness of paganism. :lol:

King James wrote it for sure! Without him there wouldn't even be a Bible!

[debrand]

Ephraim's glory shall fly away like a bird—no birth, no pregnancy, no conception! Even if they bring up children, I will bereave them till none is left. Woe to them when I depart from them! Ephraim's sons, as I have seen, are destined for a prey; Ephraim must lead forth his sons to slaughter. Give them, O Lord—what wilt thou give? Give them a miscarrying womb and dry breasts." (Hosea 9:11-14).

It is evident this is of little use for the anti-choice cause. In fact, we see that it is not considered out of line to ask God to burden our enemies with spontaneous, God-given abortions

Interesting quote from formergothardite's link.

The reason, i think, some Christians are so desperate to hold onto their beliefs about abortion is that it is difficult to admit that what they've been taught is wrong. They have to admit that they weren't listening to god but to someone's opinion. Further, admitting that the bible is ambigious in many areas can be very frightening for the type of person who engages in black and white thinking.

[formergothardite]

Exactly debrand. it is hard to accept that everything you have been taught to believe might not be right. The other passages I quoted shows that God placed no value on children who were under a month old.

[emmiedahl]

There's only one way to solve this. Have the Christian and Hebrew scholars go head to head in 7 Lincoln/Douglas style debates.

Dude, are you joking?

Jewish rabbis have been debating the Torah for millennia. This *has* been addressed already. We don't need for you to pull out your KJV and try to convince us a crappy translation is better than our original.

Also, as a Jew, I view the fetus as potential life. I take that seriously from a religious perspective. I can only have a "holy" abortion under certain, narrow circumstances. But I cannot force others to follow my religion, and neither should you. Because legislating OT Jewish law means no one eats teh eebil cheezburgers and women must sacrifice a turtle after every menstrual period.

[silvia]

I wish every vehement Christian pro-lifer could read this thread and actually digest the contents. Freals.

[jericho]

Dude, are you joking?

Yes, just a little Gingrich humor.