Michael Pearl is going to be on Anderson's daytime talk.....

[thoughtful]

The Foxes must have realized that they posted on the less-traveled page (Robert Frost just spun in his grave -- sorry), and posted again on the other one:

http://www.andersoncooper.com/episodes/ ... /#comments

Interesting math:

We are glad to see folks say how the show was skewed. we were the family sitting next to Rev. Pearl. The ones in purple and black.

Yes, this was "supposed" to be a no-spin zone, but it was absolutely "rigged" with emotional hooks and Mr. Pearl only answered and spoke about 7% of the time. The rest was pushed and allocated to anti-spanking people, from Esther to the supposed "expert", to those in the audience. this was amazing to see how unbalanced this show was. We would INVITE the Anderson Cooper show to allow us to come back on to have a real chance to speak in a more balanced environment!

Don't get me wrong, the Staff took great care of us and we really had a blast. (that was our daughter seen playing). but really, we were extremely disappointed that this was about 95% one-sided. totally "spun". we saw it!

[Brainsample]

The Foxes must have realized that they posted on the less-traveled page (Robert Frost just spun in his grave -- sorry), and posted again on the other one:

http://www.andersoncooper.com/episodes/ ... /#comments

Interesting math:

I just responded over there and said that they misrepresented me and my beliefs, that I don't think spanking in general is the same as Pearl and the plumbing line, and then I referred them back to their previous comment and my own response. Here is some of it.

I wish that you would not misrepresent my beliefs by stating that if I reject Pearl's paradigm, I'm not bringing my thoughts captive and submitting them to the Word of God. Because I protest Pearl's methods and ideology as it applies to the discipline of children, I'm misrepresented as someone who rejects spanking and that I am opposed to people who spank.

I believe that caring parents can administer spankings and achieve good results. But I think that Pearl's systematic process and the psychological splitting that is required of parents to follow through with Pearl's system (what Elizabeth was describing as cold and calculated without emotion) is a world away from what the Bible talks about when it speaks of correction.

andersoncooper.com/episodes/michael-pearl-and-extreme-child-discipline-plus-miracle-dog-and-healthy-cooking-with-rocco-dispirito/#ixzz1fb9PN1WB

[Brainsample]

And, boy, are they staying away from my comments about the Greek paideo (vigorous Athenian process of education of noble sons) and those about the social psychology studies.

Ebil psychology.

[Witsec5]

OMG! Thank you Brainsample for sharing those pics. They are horrible beyond words. So plumbing supply line doesn't leave a mark? So says the world's expert on using it to hit children. And thanks thoughtful for posting the play-by-play of the interviews on Friday. Later I saw some of the Pearl interviews, excerpted on Youtube and noticed that the parents who supported Pearl lacked warmth and spoke in a freaky, controlled staccato voice. I didn't hear any of that little girl babyspeak I have come to expect from fundie women.

Anyway, judging from the parents I saw, I would agree with what has been said here: Pearl's writings validate and encourage parents who are already harsh and withholding to go further with it. If I worked for CPS, I would open a file on every one of the homeschooling Pearl-following parents who were profiled on the show so there could be some sort of oversight.

I know this is a free country...but you know someone was watching me because I had my son in a public school and that is how it should be. After my son was hurt accidentally and said something to his teacher (before he knew the difference between accidentally and on purpose), the school called CPS on me and I didn't mind a bit. It made me feel good that our society was good enough to have some protections for my child. Kids who are home-schooled should at least be required to have someone come out to the house on occasion to check not only their education but their health and well-being. Responsible homeschooling parents would welcome the "intrusion" to show what they have accomplished. I don't mean to ramble but the isolation of these kids horrifies me beyond words and those Pearl supporting parents really give me the heebie-jeebies. Why are they spending so much time and effort justifying this garbage?

[thoughtful]

I just responded over there and said that they misrepresented me and my beliefs, that I don't think spanking in general is the same as Pearl and the plumbing line, and then I referred them back to their previous comment and my own response.

I saw that -- good job!

[thoughtful]

OMG! Thank you Brainsample for sharing those pics. They are horrible beyond words. So plumbing supply line doesn't leave a mark? So says the world's expert on using it to hit children. And thanks thoughtful for posting the play-by-play of the interviews on Friday.

You're welcome!

Sadly, I worry that confronting Pearl about the marks would only make him say something like "See, they beat hard, and I only say to whip lightly," since some of them look like individual stripes.

:(

The fact that even the "calm" continuous whipping he espouses, even if done at a moderate level, could lead to the breakdown of tissue that caused the kidney damage, and the larger, darker marks, is an important focus, I think.

[Brainsample]

Why are they spending so much time and effort justifying this garbage?

I know this is rhetorical but, I have to say it and get it out of my system.

Because Pearl has used the tactics of spiritual abuse and thought reform to blackmail and brainwash them into accepting his paradigm which offers only one real alternative to be acceptable to God -- his way. If you don't follow his rules you damn your child and yourself.

And the other part of it is commitment and consistency, the hobgoblin of lesser minds (ignorant/innocent of knowledge of the deception used against them, not that they are not bright, astute and honorable people). They've followed this with their own children. If they deny Pearl or recapitulate or recant, they have to face the painful truth that they did these very things to their own children. It is easier to fight the critics and to "hide from their own flesh" (Lydia and Hana Grace and Sean) than it is to face the disturbing truth of what they've done and believed.

I've posted this here on FJ before, and the criteria of Authority applies also, but here it is:

lucifereffect.com/guide_cialdini-b.htm

Resisting Influence

Prepared by Philip Zimbardo and Cindy X. Wang

Cialdini’s Principles of Social Influence

Consistency [Context]

The Basics

People desire to look consistent within their words, beliefs, attitudes, and deeds

Good personal consistency is highly valued by society

Consistent conduct provides a beneficial approach to daily life

Affords a valuable shortcut through complex decision-making; being consistent with earlier decisions reduces need to process relevant information in future decisions

How It’s Exploited

Profiteers exploit the principle by inducing people to make an initial commitment, take a stand or position that is consistent with requests that they will later ask of them

Commitments are most effective when they are active, public, effortful, and are seen as not coerced and internally motivated – influence professionals will try to make it difficult to renege on your previous position

If they are successful, abiding by this rule may lead to stubborn commitment to an initial position and to actions contrary to one’s best interests

The rule may become self-perpetuating – people will seek to add new reasons and justifications for their behavior even after conditions have changed

Best Defense

To resist this principle, learn to recognize and resist undue influence of consistency pressures on compliance decisions

Do not be pressured into accepting requests that you do not want to perform and disregard unjust or falsely obtained initial commitments, however small they seem initially

Be sensitive to situational variables operating on your decision, separate them from personal variables, external forces on the compliance from internal forces to justify it.

[Brainsample]

Sadly, I worry that confronting Pearl about the marks would only make him say something like "See, they beat hard, and I only say to whip lightly," since some of them look like individual stripes.

After hours on end of the tubing, I think that you 'd hit the same spots over and over, and they would leave marks.

The fact that even the "calm" continuous whipping he espouses, even if done at a moderate level, could lead to the breakdown of tissue that caused the kidney damage, and the larger, darker marks, is an important focus, I think.

Anyone know a geek scientist calculus loving physical scientist or whoever would do this kind of thing that could figure out how many joules an average swat with the Pearl approved tubing would amount to, and then test men and women as a comparison? That's the next thing that we need to do, and then study what effect that has on the tissue. A nice, controlled study.

[thoughtful]

I wanted to be back up my impression that TTUAC is mostly whipping, since I keep expressing that to people who claim it's mostly fellowship and love. I guess the 3% thing got under my skin.

It occurred to me that MS Word displays a word count at the bottom of the page.

So, I've been going through the text of it I have in my computer (the one with the horse and buggy cover, from the site that used to have it free online), and separating chunks of it into separate files, based on content.

I ended up with a bunch of separate documents, with titles like:

- Fear of The World

- pain

- Sexism

- Comparisons of teaching children with training animals, the armed forces, or the punishments of law enforcement

- work ethic

etc. -- there are 15 of them, I think.

I can't claim it's going to be perfect, but I am trying to be accurate, and even unbiased -- I even made the entire "tying strings" chapter one doc, even though it has significant sexism, and other things I would have sorted into other docs, in it.

I would have accepted the fact that the violence jumped out at me so much that my impression had been based on emotion.

But just the descriptions of pain-based training and chastisement, and urges to use it, made a doc that tops the list, all by itself, with the next in line more than 1000 words behind.

BTW, that second-in-line doc consists of his mocking, unpleasant descriptions of straw-man Worldly parents and the "before" versions of the supposedly hopeless parents he feels he has saved.

Third appears to be descriptions of children as the enemy, sinful, willful, etc. The "tying strings" chapter and instances of sexism run almost neck and neck for fourth.

I guess it could be argued that I made this happen by making so many categories. I'd accept that criticism. But the descriptions of pain-based training still appear to be about twice as long as the entire "tying strings" chapter.

All of the things I personally find troublesome about the book add up to 70% of it (and that's still leaving out all of the tying strings chapter, all of the Bible verses and verse numbers, and odd but neutral, miscellaneous stuff like the African potty training).

So I think I have a leg to stand on when I say the book is not mostly love and fellowship.

I'm not going to put the numbers here yet -- it's been tiring work, both emotionally and on my eyes, and I need a break before going through and fine-tuning as needed (I want to make darn sure I'm being accurate).

[browncoatslytherin]

wow, thoughtful, that's commitment!

[AnnoDomini]

By all means let us know what else you see! I am also curious about the sexism in the 'tying strings' chapter. It's been a long time since I read that vile book.

[hoipolloi]

Thanks to all who've commented at AC. I had difficulties registering & finally gave up.

Thoughtful - thank you for such a thank-less task. Do let us know how this pans out. I wonder how it would look in a word cloud.

[thoughtful]

I wonder how it would look in a word cloud.

Here it is with a 100-word limit:

http://www.wordle.net/show/wrdl/4517358/TTUAC_100_words

ETA -- you have to get it down to 11 words to eliminate "rod" -- here's 12:

http://www.wordle.net/show/wrdl/4517488/TTUAC_12_words

and 13 will still have "training" in it.

[gustava]

After hours on end of the tubing, I think that you 'd hit the same spots over and over, and they would leave marks.

Anyone know a geek scientist calculus loving physical scientist or whoever would do this kind of thing that could figure out how many joules an average swat with the Pearl approved tubing would amount to, and then test men and women as a comparison? That's the next thing that we need to do, and then study what effect that has on the tissue. A nice, controlled study.

Using Pearl as the test subject. :twisted:

[Brainsample]

Does someone know of material online that concisely talks about the Pearl daughter, Rebeccah Agnast or whatever it is her name is. Where can I find her blog?

[thoughtful]

Someone just posted this about an hour ago:

I caught the show on Friday and was not too impressed with a TV host being such a bad host. The guest, Michael Pearl was on and my husband and myself could not get over Mr. Andersons constant interruption of this particular guest. He let everyone else talk without interruption, but not Mr. Pearl. I am unfamilar with Mr. Pearls book and teachings, but Mr. anderson was not interested in letting this guest speak without speaking over him. A excellent host needs to be neutral. We will not be tuning in and will let others know of his host's rudeness.

My reply:

How unusual, for someone who has no interest whatsoever in a guest, to go out of their way, several days after a broadcast, to come to the website and post about the host not giving one guest enough time, and nothing else.

Tell us how you felt about the miracle dog and the recipes, at least. :-)

Read more: http://www.andersoncooper.com/episodes/ ... z1fdIfaA00

I just couldn't help myself.

http://www.andersoncooper.com/episodes/ ... /1/#c25210

Brainsample, here is Rebekah's old dream blog:

dreaming-awake.com/

She posts at 7xsunday, too -- her hubby's site.

About her:

http://debrasrandomthoughts.blogspot.co ... dhood.html

And there are several follow-ups.

[thoughtful]

I've been nosing around this site:

http://nogreaterjoychildren.wordpress.com/

Don't know if it belongs to anyone here.

[thoughtful]

Brainsample, the censor got you again.

Don't you know enough not to post "advocates hitting," young lady?

I think it was willful on your part. Go cut a switch.

[Brainsample]

Thanks for those links, thoughtful. If the discussion trends into "But he has a lovely family," I want to be prepared. (And I'll have it for future reference.)

[Brainsample]

I just got word that my proposal to present patriarchy at the International Cultic Studies Association's meeting in Montreal in July 2012 was accepted. I"ll be giving a 30 minute floor presentation to the international anti-cult association on complementarianism/authoritarian hierarchy as the parent ideology for VF's weirdness, the IFB reform schools with Hephzibah House as the prototype, and Pearl's garbage.

Here's the abstract I submitted a couple of months ago:

In response to a wide array of societal changes and the open acceptance of less traditional and more liberal lifestyles within the overall culture, a growing and significant number of vocal Protestant Christians within the United States have sought to influence society to return to an idealized version of traditional, conservative religious practices. Issues concerning gender and trends that are believed to threaten the institution of the traditional, nuclear family provoke negative emotion among religious conservatives, ranging from general anxiety to specific fears of a perceived and seemingly inevitable apocalyptic demise of the Christian faith and of the nation. Increasing numbers of Christian Evangelicals have adopted extreme ideologies and programs of authoritarian patriarchy as a veritable panacea that is capable of rescuing and restoring stability to the beleaguered family, a traditional Christian faith, and all society. Of special interest in this discussion is the abuse and resultant morbidity suffered by women, who are vilified under these contemporary programs of patriarchy, as well as the morbidity and mortality suffered by children, who live under the aggressive disciplinary practices that are inflicted for the benefit of their spiritual health and meant for their spiritual purification.

This presentation will examine the rise in popularity of four related groups who follow and share variations of Evangelical Christian patriarchy: 1.) Complementarianism (teaching ontological and teleological subordination of women affecting 16 million American Christians), 2.) Biblical Patriarchy within the Christian homeschooling movement, 3.) Reform programs for teens operated by Independent Fundamental Baptist affiliates, and 4.) Child Training Methods of Michael Pearl (popular within the homeschooling community and the practice of which has resulted in documented cases of asphyxiation, renal failure, and death).

[browncoatslytherin]

wow brainsample, i don't suppose they are going to film it, are they? is there any way you could post your presentation after you present it? i would be very interested in reading it.

[Brainsample]

wow brainsample, i don't suppose they are going to film it, are they? is there any way you could post your presentation after you present it? i would be very interested in reading it.

You'd get more out of watching the video of my old patriarchy lecture. This one is going to be 30-40 minutes and geared at people who are from a variety of different backgrounds and religions. I'm just going to give the highlights. So it's all mostly stuff everyone on FJ knows already anyway.

What I plan to do, though, is make a video or a podcast that syncs up with the powerpoint slides on slideshare that people can watch online. I plan to play a section of one of the CNN clips at the end, too. And I could go give it tomorrow.

[browncoatslytherin]

that sounds so exciting! :D i'm so excited for you

[DinnerPlateDahlia]

So, this is finally airing in Denver right now.

The commenters who posted that Pearl was being cut off and not allowed to speak are definitely Pearl devotees following talking points! Not only did Pearl do most of the talking, a couple of times I noticed Anderson trying to ask a question to "direct" Pearl's ramblings into something relevant, and Pearl just literally bulldozed, continuing to ramble through the entire question about whatever nonsense he was saying to begin with. When someone said something he didn't like (the DA for example), he would pretend to ignore them and read the copy of his book he brought.

I don't think anyone who wasn't already one of Pearl's supporters or some other corporal punishment fanatic would have watched this show and not seen Pearl for what he is.

Edited for Pearl-rage-induced typo

[hoipolloi]

Congrats, brainsample! I'll look forward to your subsequent video/podcast.

Re: science & child-rearing. Here's an interesting story on the results of a scientific study of toddler tantrums & how to "read" them as a parent so that you're intervening when you can be most effective: http://www.npr.org/blogs/health/2011/12 ... he-screams

Hint: the parents' successful management of these tantrums did NOT involve spanking hitting or chastisement beating. It involved -- wait for it -- being the responsible, caring & empathetic adult in charge of the out-of-control child!