Reformed Presbyterian Church of North America--Fundie?

[QueenNocturne]

I was doing my homework for my Federal Income Tax class and I came upon a case where a couple that were members of the Reformed Presbyterian Church of North America. The facts of the case noted that this couple had thirteen kids at the time they went to trial, and it was noted that their church regarded lots of kids a blessing and therefore forbid birth control and abortion. (And yes, this was relevant: they were trying to get out of paying an alternate minimum tax, which impacts mostly higher-income families, by saying that since that tax didn't provide for dependent exemptions, they were the victims of religious persecution. FYI, the IRS ruled against them.)

 

After reading that, I had to ask: is this denomination fundie, or is this family just an outlier.

 

FYI, this case is Klaasen v. Commissioner, if someone wants to find it.

[Witsec7]

KISA identified as reformed. I don't recall if it was PCNA.

[MamaJunebug]

!?!?!?!

I'm so glad you asked. I've found the Presbyterians harder to keep track of than are we Lutherans, and to date I haven't found a wiki page that lists 'em all out.

Here's information from the various synods' webpages, including very helpful info from Buddha.

Reformed Presbyterian Church of North America (The topic of this post)

Our beliefs all stem from a full commitment to the authority of the Bible as the inerrant, infallible Word of God. This means that we believe in the Triune God: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. We acknowledge our total inability to save ourselves and, in faith, depend on Christ alone as our Savior. We acknowledge Him as Covenant Lord in every area of life, and we vow together to advance His Kingdom on earth.

We believe that God desires His Church to set forth clear statements of her system of doctrine that can be supported from Scripture. We therefore accept as our creed, or subordinate standards, The Westminster Confession of Faith and the Larger and Shorter Catechisms. In addition to these doctrinal statements, we adhere to the Testimony of the Reformed Presbyterian Church of North America, which is our continuing application of God’s written word to the world and the church of today.

We believe that God’s Word clearly sets forth how He is to be worshiped. The reading and exposition of the Word of God are the central focus of our worship. Our musical praise employs God’s Word only, thus making use of the divinely inspired Book of Psalms of the Bible. In keeping with the New Testament Church’s directive for heart worship, we sing without the aid of musical instruments.

http://reformedpresbyterian.org/

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Reformed Presbyterian Church General Assembly (The group with which Pastor Serven's Covenant Family Church is aligned)

We are a continuing historic confessing church that has officially adopted the Westminster Confession of Faith of 1647 together with the Larger and Shorter Catechisms as our subordinate standards. We further recognize the value of other Reformed creedal standards and their acceptable use among our churches in teaching the theology of the Reformation.

We are also unique as a denomination in that we:

1.embrace the doctrine of Biblical Inerrancy

2.maintain a literal twenty-four hour, six consecutive day creationist view of Genesis;

3.reject the modern day Erastian teaching of Church Incorporation;

4.practice male head-of-household voting;

5.encourage family-integrated church practices;

6.require an educated eldership;

7.adhere to a two office view of the church (Southern Presbyterian) while maintaining a three fold function of the eldership (preaching, teaching and governing);

8.promote and support the training of our children in Christian educational institutions, especially in the home schooling method.

As a Reformed covenantal church we invite you to examine our web site and review our documents and if you have any questions about our denomination, please feel free to contact us.

http://www.rpcga.us/

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{the following was offered by the FJite known as Buddha}

The three main presbyterian branches- ranging from your more "conservative" to your less conservative:

Orthodox Presbyterian Church

Our system of doctrine is the Reformed faith, also called Calvinism (because Calvin was the most important exponent of it during the Reformation). It pulls together the most significant doctrines taught in the Bible. These doctrines are set forth in the Westminster Confession of Faith and the Larger and Shorter Catechisms (with accompanying biblical references). Our system of doctrine is summarized in the following paragraphs.

•The Bible, having been inspired by God, is entirely trustworthy and without error. Therefore, we are to believe and obey its teachings. The Bible is the only source of special revelation for the church today.

•The one true God is personal, yet beyond our comprehension. He is an invisible spirit, completely self-sufficient and unbounded by space or time, perfectly holy and just, and loving and merciful. In the unity of the Godhead there are three "persons": the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.

•God created the heavens and the earth, and all they contain. He upholds and governs them in accordance with his eternal will. God is sovereign (in complete control) yet this does not diminish human responsibility.

•Because of the sin of the first man, Adam, all mankind is corrupt by nature, dead in sin, and subject to the wrath of God. But God determined, by a covenant of grace, that sinners may receive forgiveness and eternal life through faith in Jesus Christ. Faith in Christ has always been the only way of salvation, in both Old Testament and New Testament times.

•The Son of God took upon himself a human nature in the womb of the virgin Mary, so that in her son Jesus the divine and human natures were united in one person. Jesus Christ lived a sinless life and died on a cross, bearing the sins of, and receiving God's wrath for, all those who trust in him for salvation (his chosen ones). He rose from the dead and ascended into heaven, where he sits as Lord and rules over his kingdom (the church). He will return to judge the living and the dead, bringing his people (with glorious, resurrected bodies) into eternal life, and consigning the wicked to eternal punishment.

•Those whom God has predestined unto life are effectually drawn to Christ by the inner working of the Spirit as they hear the gospel. When they believe in Christ, God declares them righteous (justifies them), pardoning their sins and accepting them as righteous, not because of any righteousness of their own, but by imputing Christ's merits to them. They are adopted as the children of God and indwelt by the Holy Spirit, who sanctifies them, enabling them increasingly to stop sinning and act righteously. They repent of their sins (both at their conversion and thereafter), produce good works as the fruit of their faith, and persevere to the end in communion with Christ, with assurance of their salvation.

•Believers strive to keep God's moral law, which is summarized in the Ten Commandments, not to earn salvation, but because they love their Savior and want to obey him. God is the Lord of the conscience, so that men are not required to believe or do anything contrary to, or in addition to, the Word of God in matters of faith or worship.

•Christ has established his church, and particular churches, to gather and perfect his people, by means of the ministry of the Word, the sacraments of baptism (which is to be administered to the children of believers, as well as believers) and the Lord's Supper (in which the body and blood of Christ are spiritually present to the faith of believers), and the disciplining of members found delinquent in doctrine or life. Christians assemble on the Lord's Day to worship God by praying, hearing the Word of God read and preached, singing psalms and hymns, and receiving the sacraments.

OPC- http://www.opc.org/

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Presbyterian Church in America (this group sponsors Covenant Theological Seminary, where (last we heard) Pastor Serven of the RPCGA was pursuing his doctoral degree)

We believe the Bible is the written word of God, inspired by the Holy Spirit and without error in the original manuscripts. The Bible is the revelation of God’s truth and is infallible and authoritative in all matters of faith and practice.

We believe in the Holy Trinity. There is one God, who exists eternally in three persons: the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.

We believe that all are sinners and totally unable to save themselves from God’s displeasure, except by His mercy.

We believe that salvation is by God alone as He sovereignly chooses those He will save. We believe His choice is based on His grace, not on any human individual merit, or foreseen faith.

We believe that Jesus Christ is the eternal Son of God, who through His perfect life and sacrificial death atoned for the sins of all who will trust in Him, alone, for salvation.

We believe that God is gracious and faithful to His people not simply as individuals but as families in successive generations according to His Covenant promises.

We believe that the Holy Spirit indwells God’s people and gives them the strength and wisdom to trust Christ and follow Him.

We believe that Jesus will return, bodily and visibly, to judge all mankind and to receive His people to Himself.

We believe that all aspects of our lives are to be lived to the glory of God under the Lordship of Jesus Christ.

PCA- http://www.pcanet.org/

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Presbyterian Church (USA)

Through the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ, the love of God, and the communion of the Holy Spirit, we trust in the one triune God, the Holy One of Israel, whom alone we worship and serve.

God comes to us in free and undeserved favor in the person of Jesus Christ who lived, died, and rose for us that we might belong to God and serve Christ in the world. Following Jesus, Presbyterians are engaged in the world and in seeking thoughtful solutions to the challenges of our time.

Presbyterians affirm that God comes to us with grace and love in the person of Jesus Christ, who lived, died, and rose for us so that we might have eternal and abundant life in him. As Christ’s disciples, called to ministry in his name, we seek to continue his mission of teaching the truth, feeding the hungry, healing the broken, and welcoming strangers. God sends the Holy Spirit to dwell within us, giving us the energy, intelligence, imagination, and love to be Christ’s faithful disciples in the world.

More than two million people call the Presbyterian Church (U.S.A.) their spiritual home. Worshiping in 10,000 Presbyterian congregations throughout the United States, they engage the communities in which they live and serve with God’s love.

PCUSA- http://www.pcusa.org/

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MJB's comment: ;) yep, you can tell when you've gotten to the women-pastors group when the home page talks about service in the world! At least, that was my irreverent take on it.

Thanks to Buddha and Esteleth and any in future who contribute/d. I tihnk I've got 'em in right conservative-to-liberal order, above.

If someone can vouch for the info as presented, can we make this a sticky? it would sure be helpful to me as I read and ramble about. Kthxbai!

[TheBuddha]

well, fundie or devout not sure which but yes...

"

8. The heartfelt singing of praise is an element of public worship. The

Psalms of the Bible, because of positive biblical warrant, their inherent excellence, and their divine inspiration, are to be sung in the public worship of

God, to the exclusion of all songs or hymns of human composition"

from their Constitution.. I.e they believe in Exclusive pslamnody, in corporate worship.

assuming that http://reformedpresbyterian.org/index.p ... &Itemid=34 is the same as what you are talking about?

This is how the puritans of old, covenaters, etc- largely did their worship.....

http://youtu.be/19u0OzV3O-o

http://youtu.be/yETRxtYIL-E

http://youtu.be/w62TN2iCP1g

http://youtu.be/txIx9b07RhY

as a side note- when they sing the psalms, its from a Psalter, and its my understanding that the original Psalters from that time period, were just as much a translation direct from the Hebrew as a viable bible (the more word for word ones)..

im thinking this maybe a hebrew version of psalmnody.

[TheBuddha]

you have three main presbyterian branches- ranging from your more "conservitive" to your less..

OPC- http://www.opc.org/

PCA- http://www.pcanet.org/

PCUSA- http://www.pcusa.org/ (Im not sure if they have women pastors yet, but im thinking they got women deacons /gasp)?

------

beyond that you have several fractured groups- the ones im familiar with would definitely be fundy by the standards here.

if your up for it- i could rummage through my internetz and find all my old links on various sects and related.

*tried to edit for spelling, but im failing at life today- sorry

[Esteleth]

Reformed Presbyterian Church of North America is fundie.

Presbyterian Church (USA) is not. Women pastors, currently arguing about ordaining partnered gay people (they already ordain celibate gay people), and the ones in favor of opening ordination are winning. So yeah. Not fundie.

[misslady]

Agree with Esteleth, PC(USA) is totally not fundie; I grew up in it and am an ordained elder, and our seminaries admit women to study to be ministers (gasp!). I never even heard of Calvin until I did some independent reading in high school. PCA is fundie-lite, at least around here. Not skirts-only but definitely women do not hold leadership roles.

I haven't heard of RPCNA before this but one of the things that I have learned from FJ is how many whacko branches there are out there claiming my denomination. It makes me sad.

[TheBuddha]

@mammajune

all appears in order...

;)

[AnnoDomini]

Oh man, the Reformed Presbyterian Church was so where I spent most of my church-going years. Definitely fundy. And watching those videos was like watching my own family when we did our home-church bit.

My father decries women pianists as 'leading' the congregation (this is part of his argument against instruments also) but the PCA church I went to yesterday (first time I'd been to church in ten years, and going finally was rather brave considering how much I don't want my anti-church weird-fundy family finding out) totally had instruments and women players.

[CanticleoftheTurning]

I asked my husband, who used to be PC(USA) and is still knowledgeable about Presby denominations.

His reply? An empathetic "Yes!"

But yes, PC(USA) is most def. NOT fundie. They're the ones who are allowing the ordination (not just pastors, but they also ordain for the various supportive roles) of practicing gays even though they still technically limit marriage to heterosexual couples. C'mon, why not just marry them at that point, like the Episcopalians do?

[emmiedahl]

I just looked up our local Presby church because I know some pretty fundie people (and also pretty normal people) who go there. They are PCUSA, but the pastor links to a long and angry letter on the homepage about changes to the Book of Order regarding homosexuality. They said that they do not recognize the changes and will not comply. But they are still PCUSA? Confusing.

[snarkbillie]

Any time you see the word "reformed" you're looking at a fundamentalism.

I would like to point out thought that also being a member of a denomination does not stop you from also being Gothard-led. My family was Southern Baptist and while many at our church did things like singing praise music (i.e. not hymns) and women wore pants and cut their hair.. we didn't. Gothard is pervasive. We eventually went to home churching for more control, but in the beginning many that are going down this road still stay and claim their old church's banner.

[Avalondaughter]

Reformed Presbyterian Church of North America is fundie.

Presbyterian Church (USA) is not. Women pastors, currently arguing about ordaining partnered gay people (they already ordain celibate gay people), and the ones in favor of opening ordination are winning. So yeah. Not fundie.

I have spent some time in the PCUSA (long story as I am not actually Presbyterian) and the ones I knew were quite conservative. They were not necessarily anti-evolution, but they were anti-gay (in a loving, "Pray the gay away" way and not in a hateful Zuzu/WBC way), and were less than happy about female ordination.

[QueenNocturne]

Hey everyone, thank you so much for all this information. I have to say, I'm not very familiar with the Presbyterian denomination, so this is really helpful!! Thank you!

[denimjumper]

This is ME and we are sooooo not Fundie that our sorta-fundies all ran away...

Presbyterian Church (USA)

Through the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ, the love of God, and the communion of the Holy Spirit, we trust in the one triune God, the Holy One of Israel, whom alone we worship and serve.

God comes to us in free and undeserved favor in the person of Jesus Christ who lived, died, and rose for us that we might belong to God and serve Christ in the world. Following Jesus, Presbyterians are engaged in the world and in seeking thoughtful solutions to the challenges of our time.

Presbyterians affirm that God comes to us with grace and love in the person of Jesus Christ, who lived, died, and rose for us so that we might have eternal and abundant life in him. As Christ’s disciples, called to ministry in his name, we seek to continue his mission of teaching the truth, feeding the hungry, healing the broken, and welcoming strangers. God sends the Holy Spirit to dwell within us, giving us the energy, intelligence, imagination, and love to be Christ’s faithful disciples in the world.

More than two million people call the Presbyterian Church (U.S.A.) their spiritual home. Worshiping in 10,000 Presbyterian congregations throughout the United States, they engage the communities in which they live and serve with God’s love.

PCUSA- http://www.pcusa.org/

[denimjumper]

I have spent some time in the PCUSA (long story as I am not actually Presbyterian) and the ones I knew were quite conservative. They were not necessarily anti-evolution, but they were anti-gay (in a loving, "Pray the gay away" way and not in a hateful Zuzu/WBC way), and were less than happy about female ordination.

Here's the rub: the current PC USA is facing a denomination schism. There are parts of it which are becoming more conservative and recent votes allowing the ordination of gays as elders and deacons has made the issue really come to a head.

[denimjumper]

I just looked up our local Presby church because I know some pretty fundie people (and also pretty normal people) who go there. They are PCUSA, but the pastor links to a long and angry letter on the homepage about changes to the Book of Order regarding homosexuality. They said that they do not recognize the changes and will not comply. But they are still PCUSA? Confusing.

Yes, and a big issue we discussed endlessly in session meetings (I am an elder). The Book of Order is like the "who we are" of the faith. It has the rules of what and how and where and why. If you went into any PC USA church, they were all run by the same book of order, changes to which we voted on by the General Assembly (we are by far the most democratic religion in the world ;0)

So when they made the changes that said an individual church could decided to ordain gays, this shook people up. Some churches wanted to do so, others did not. But yes, all are still PC USA.

[fundifugee]

Yes, Reformed and Orthodox Pres are fundy-er than PCA, which is fundy-er than PCUSA.

Agree with previous posters though that you can find rabid crazy fundies in any of these churches. My family is PCA, and within their church there are fundy-lites as well as quiverful-ers and other varieties of anti-woman, anti-gay, militant far-right-ists, and/or anti-guvmint nutbars. Outside the PCUSA, though, ISTM that all Pressies seem to happily agree that women should submit and should not be in leadership, and that teh gehyz are going to burn in hell.

[Esteleth]

"Reformed" is not necessarily synonymous with "fundie." Some reformed Christians are fundie, some are not. Some fundies are reformed, some are not.

"Reformed" is a synonym "Calvinist."

Basically, if a church follows the 5 principles of Calvinism (i.e. TULIP), they are reformed.

TULIP is:

(1) total depravity

(2) unconditional election

(3) limited atonement

(4) irresistible grace

and

(5) perseverance of the saints.

Basically: humans suck, God loves you anyway and has chosen (some) of you to be saved. You cannot get out of this, and once you're saved, you're saved. But try to be a good person, anyway.

After my parents quit being (AoG) fundie, I was raised in the PC(USA), but left several years ago. Largely due to geography, as I moved to New England, where presbyterians are few and far between. I'm now a practicing Quaker, which is a whole 'nother kettle of fish, theologically speaking. Among other things, we Quakers peevishly reject Calvinism (and yes, we are quite peevish about it).

[GenerationCedarchip]

Oh my goodness, yes, they are fundie! The old fundie-farm where I grew up was "in communion with" (i.e. not part of this group but maintain ties) this branch of Presby. PC(USA) is not at all fundie. Evangelical Presby tends to be fundie-lite up to the conservative side of mainstream. PCA tends to be fundie-lite to fundie, and then the OPC and other smaller splinter branches are often pretty darn fundie.

Edited to add: If I'm remembering right, this might be the Chanceys' denomination.