In Saudi Arabia, a view from behind the veil

[Deleted12]

(The LAF post reminded me of this article from a few years back. The more I hear about the way teh fundies want the US to be, the more I am reminded of the Taliban, the Saudis, and other crazy Islamic groups and countries. A woman's place is in the home with the kids, and if you want to go to the store to get food for your kids you'd better just put a bag over your head so you don't attract the wrong kind of attention from men. If you wear jeans and a t-shirt a man who's not your husband, brother, or dad might actually say "Good morning." You know, that kind of wrong attention.)

THE hem of my heavy Islamic cloak trailed over floors that glistened like ice. I walked faster, my eyes fixed on a familiar, green icon. I hadn't seen a Starbucks in months, but there it was, tucked into a corner of a fancy shopping mall in the Saudi capital. After all those bitter little cups of sludgy Arabic coffee, here at last was an improbable snippet of home — caffeinated, comforting, American.

I wandered into the shop, filling my lungs with the rich wafts of coffee. The man behind the counter gave me a bemused look; his eyes flickered. I asked for a latte. He shrugged, the milk steamer whined, and he handed over the brimming paper cup. I turned my back on his uneasy face.

Crossing the cafe, I felt the hard stares of Saudi men. A few of them stopped talking as I walked by and watched me pass. Them, too, I ignored. Finally, coffee in hand, I sank into the sumptuous lap of an overstuffed armchair.

"Excuse me," hissed the voice in my ear. "You can't sit here." The man from the counter had appeared at my elbow. He was glaring.

"Excuse me?" I blinked a few times.

"Emmm," he drew his discomfort into a long syllable, his brows knitted. "You cannot stay here."

"What? Uh … why?"

Then he said it: "Men only."

He didn't tell me what I would learn later: Starbucks had another, unmarked door around back that led to a smaller espresso bar, and a handful of tables smothered by curtains. That was the "family" section. As a woman, that's where I belonged. I had no right to mix with male customers or sit in plain view of passing shoppers. Like the segregated South of a bygone United States, today's Saudi Arabia shunts half the population into separate, inferior and usually invisible spaces.

http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld ... ?track=rss

[annalena]

This is why I am very surprised that the political left in the Western is so welcoming towards Islam. Point made.

Interesting article, thanks for posting. I could not imagine living in a culture like this, having grown up in Europe where I can sit wherever I want. I would go crazy.

[annalena]

I mean, obviously she defrauded those men by sitting there. What was she wearing though? Well, doesn't really matter, I guess she defrauded them anyway.

[annalena]

Sorry for multi-posting, but had the most random thought about Saudi-Arabia and women's rights yesterday. Aren't women supposed to do all the housework? I thought about this when I was driving to the supermarket. :) How can they do that when they are not allowed to drive?

Does basically everyone have a driver, or can afford it?

[saraelise]

This is why I am very surprised that the political left in the Western is so welcoming towards Islam. Point made.

Interesting article, thanks for posting. I could not imagine living in a culture like this, having grown up in Europe where I can sit wherever I want. I would go crazy.

Saudia Arabia is a country, Islam is a religion. You can be in favour of welcoming the religion, but not agree with the way it's practiseed in certain countries. In much the same way people at this forum reject fundie ideology, but not Christiniaty as a religion. Wahabism is one of the most conservative forms of Islam but it is just one example of practised Islam and an extreme one at that.

[saraelise]

I think I brought it up before on this forum, but the book "Nine Part of Desire" by Geraldine Brooks is another peak into this world. It's very, very interesting and informative.

[Deleted03]

I think I brought it up before on this forum, but the book "Nine Part of Desire" by Geraldine Brooks is another peak into this world. It's very, very interesting and informative.

There's Girls of Rihyad too

http://www.amazon.com/Girls-Riyadh-Nove ... 720&sr=8-1

loved it and the double lives of young women, I've seen it with my friends, even though they're not as crazy as the segregation in Saudi Arabia.

[celestial]

Thanks for posting this! Very interesting read. I teach a lot of Saudi students and their views on gender roles are very different from mine, to say the least.

[Sunnichick31]

This is why I am very surprised that the political left in the Western is so welcoming towards Islam. Point made.

There is a HUGE difference between culture and religion. You can't judge the entire religion based on a few people who interpret it in an extreme way.

[jenny_islander]

Allowing American citizens freedom of religion under the law is not the same thing as putting our entire nation under Islamic law.

[lizzy]

One of the best articles I've read in a long time. Thank you for sharing.

[treemom]

This is why I am very surprised that the political left in the Western is so welcoming towards Islam. Point made.

Interesting article, thanks for posting. I could not imagine living in a culture like this, having grown up in Europe where I can sit wherever I want. I would go crazy.

I am both A + B. Saudi Islam is not all Islam. I am welcoming of all faiths that do not subjugate others. I have problems with mainstream Islam in the same way I have problems with a lot of mainstream practices of religion. But I refuse to be less welcoming because of the extremes.

[2xx1xy1JD]

There is a HUGE difference between culture and religion. You can't judge the entire religion based on a few people who interpret it in an extreme way.

I agree, but the entire country of Saudi Arabia is hardly "a few people".

Yes, there is a range of practice in Islam, and this form is at the more extreme end. It's not, however, "extreme" in the sense of being "very rare". Just as one may be concerned about the growing influence of extreme Christian fundie groups, there has been a definite increase in the Saudi-sponsored version of Islam around the world. Barak Obama discusses how it is replacing the traditionally more tolerant form of Islam in Indonesia, the way that Saudi-sponsored madressas are replacing the traditional Pakistani forms of Islam is discussed in "Three Cups of Tea", Ayaan Hirsi Ali discusses how the influence of the Muslim Brotherhood changed how Islam was practiced in Somalia, and there's extensively documentation about the fairly recent concentration of power in terms of the Muslim Student Associations and mosque ownership and control in North America by NAIT, which receives funding from Saudi sources.

[treemom]

I agree, but the entire country of Saudi Arabia is hardly "a few people".

Yes, there is a range of practice in Islam, and this form is at the more extreme end. It's not, however, "extreme" in the sense of being "very rare". Just as one may be concerned about the growing influence of extreme Christian fundie groups, there has been a definite increase in the Saudi-sponsored version of Islam around the world. Barak Obama discusses how it is replacing the traditionally more tolerant form of Islam in Indonesia, the way that Saudi-sponsored madressas are replacing the traditional Pakistani forms of Islam is discussed in "Three Cups of Tea", Ayaan Hirsi Ali discusses how the influence of the Muslim Brotherhood changed how Islam was practiced in Somalia, and there's extensively documentation about the fairly recent concentration of power in terms of the Muslim Student Associations and mosque ownership and control in North America by NAIT, which receives funding from Saudi sources.

You are confusing laws with the feelings of population.

And yes, compared to the whole of Islam one county is a few.

And really, Three Cups of Tea? You do know he made a huge amount of that up and stole money from his charity right?

I am concerned with all fundamentalism. But I refuse to be more concerned about Islam than Christianity.

[2xx1xy1JD]

Not more concerned, but not less concerned either.

My point from 3 Cups of Tea was just that Saudi-sponsored madressas and mosques have grown exponentially in recent years, crowding out more tolerant and moderate strains of Islam. If you follow the money, it really is just "a few people", but those few people are funding worldwide networks with petro-dollars.

As for laws vs. population: this varies according to the country. In some cases the population is more progressive, in others it is more fundamentalist.

In Iran, for example, much of the population was born after the revolution, and it associates the leaders with oppression and corruption. They are quite pro-Western, and IME (as someone who lives and works beside a large Iranian diaspora population) drop the fundamentalism once they leave Iran.

Saudi Arabia, OTOH, has a pro-Western upper class which just goes along with the clerics to keep power, but the general population tends to be suspicious of their decadence. The Saudis that lived in my building in Toronto were far more likely to continue to wear full hijab and niqab, while the Iranians would be off to the hair salon.

Somalia hasn't had much in the way of a functional central government. The Muslim Brotherhood gets support because it is seen as less corrupt and a better alternative to anarchy and warlords.

[jaelh]

I think you make valid points, but it's not so much Saudi as it is Wahhabi money that's building conservative madrases left right and centre. Also Pakistan is a worry - the Hunza Vallies have enormous pressure to convert from their "not Islam" version of Islam (Ismaili) and it would be little short of a miracle if the Kalasha Vallies make it through the next 30 years without destruction of a functioning Kalasha culture.

I think you can say these things without impugning Islam itself: it's a varient that's causing huge problem. Rather like the power of fundamentalist conservative Christianity in the US - you can say IFB is a problem without calling out all of Christianity - you can say Wahhabi Islam, in the wrong hands , is Not A Good Thing without making a comment on Islam generally.

[Kitten]

Well, if, as the fundies like to say, we should return to the "Judeo-Christian" roots of government in the U.S., then we should bring back slavery, or at least return to the "good ol' days" of Jim Crow laws, because the Bible supports slavery.

Saying Saudi Arabia's government and laws represent Islamic beliefs is no different. What a government does in law may, to some degree, reflect the cultural/religious views of the people in that government (especially in a monarchy), but that does not mean it reflects the true nature of that religion.

"Christians" have done horrendous things in the name of Christianity throughout history. Do we condemn Christianity for what Hitler did? What if the Tea Party takes over our government, and starts reversing all the freedoms we hold so dearly? Would that make Christianity a "bad" religion, bent on world domination and the subjugation of women? No, it makes those people who use it as their excuse to feel powerful bad people.

People who need to justify their prejudice, hatred, greed, and need for power have always used religion as a shield for their own personal failings.

[Kitty]

I mean, obviously she defrauded those men by sitting there. What was she wearing though? Well, doesn't really matter, I guess she defrauded them anyway.

Likely something that didn't cover her face.

It's not legally required in Saudi Arabia for a woman to cover her face, but most of the religious police seem to think so. Women get away with baring their faces to the world in liberal cities like Jeddah.

Or you know, only women cover everything except their eyes and hands, so it was clear that she was a woman! OH THE IRONY.

[emmiedahl]

I am very welcoming to Muslims. I think they make a great addition to our pluralistic society.

I have some definite judgments on Wahhabi Islam. I think it is extremely damaging to the people who live under it and a violation of basic human rights. But a person coming from Saudi Arabia, or any other Muslim country, cannot be held responsible for the actions of extreme sects of their religion. We had a previous discussion about how people can remain Catholic considering the actions of the church. Many people disapprove of the religion's leadership but still believe in a very fundamental way in Catholicism. I can see how a Muslim might feel the same way. I certainly don't want my Reform Jewish religious beliefs judged as an extension of Lubavitch Chassidim.

I have Muslim neighbors who are moderate and friendly, pretty egalitarian and tolerant. There is another family in my building that makes their daughters sit in an overcoat and heavy scarf in the summer sun while watching their brothers splash in the pool wearing swimtrunks. Two different families, two different sets of beliefs. They are both from the same country and follow the same religion, which just shows you how important it is to deal with the person in front of you instead of relying on a stereotype.

[Deleted12]

I had two Muslim roommates in college, and you would NEVER KNOW that they were Muslim unless they told you. One was Bosnian and one was Malaysian. Then again, I went to high school in the US with a kid who became fairly radical. You might have heard of one of his friends who was captured fighting for the Taliban. :P

I posted this article not so much to spur a discussion about the merits of Islam, but to hopefully spur a discussion of the similarities between the Saudis and the fundies here.

The fundies here don't seem as anxious about mingling between the genders, but they do promote modesty and staying at home under the care of your "authority" as being for the woman's own good. In both cases, they seem to blame rape on women who weren't dressing modestly and who were away from the home.

It's interesting to me that the Saudis allow women to work outside the home but our fundies don't. The Saudis are more concerned with women not having men under them than women having men who are not their authorities over them.

I'm guessing that most fundies here don't have a problem with women driving, but there was that one family who thought it should be up to the husband whether their daughter drove or not. I would also guess that there are a lot of QF families who only have one car, which practically limits the amount of driving that women can do.

I have no idea whether women are "allowed" or encouraged to vote among our fundies, or whether the woman is expected to vote the way her husband or father tells her to.

I know that one of the big problems in Saudi is that the children are considered to belong to the father and the mother has no rights at all. Another thing that the State Department warns about is that if you're an American (or other foreign) woman and you marry a Saudi and go to Saudi Arabia, your husband can legally keep you in the country against your will.

[emmiedahl]

I think it is very, very important to note the similarities between extreme Islam and fundamentalist Christianity. If Gothard had his way, our country would look and act very much like Iran and Saudi Arabia, except that those nations do a better job at educating their children than ATI. Extremist religion is not pretty or glamorous or quaint. It is the major force of evil in our world.

[2xx1xy1JD]

Athena - I think it's an interesting discussion. Maybe I naturally see comparisons, because of the demographics of my area.

For example: the purity/virginity obsession. My family and circle of friends don't use these terms at all, so I find them weird. We did learn about abstinence/monogamy in school as a way of preventing STDs, but it was all about behavior, not status, with a focus on "you are sleeping with everyone that your partner has ever slept with" during the heyday of the AIDS panic. So, when I read about purity balls and the horror at the thought that a man would be repulsed by a girl who wasn't a virgin, to me it echoes the same obsession that you find in some Islamic cultures. Seeing the full extent of the cult of purity/virginity at work there is part of what fuels my absolute disgust for it.

[ADoyle90815]

I had two Muslim roommates in college, and you would NEVER KNOW that they were Muslim unless they told you. One was Bosnian and one was Malaysian. Then again, I went to high school in the US with a kid who became fairly radical. You might have heard of one of his friends who was captured fighting for the Taliban. :P

I posted this article not so much to spur a discussion about the merits of Islam, but to hopefully spur a discussion of the similarities between the Saudis and the fundies here.

The fundies here don't seem as anxious about mingling between the genders, but they do promote modesty and staying at home under the care of your "authority" as being for the woman's own good. In both cases, they seem to blame rape on women who weren't dressing modestly and who were away from the home.

It's interesting to me that the Saudis allow women to work outside the home but our fundies don't. The Saudis are more concerned with women not having men under them than women having men who are not their authorities over them.

I'm guessing that most fundies here don't have a problem with women driving, but there was that one family who thought it should be up to the husband whether their daughter drove or not. I would also guess that there are a lot of QF families who only have one car, which practically limits the amount of driving that women can do.

I have no idea whether women are "allowed" or encouraged to vote among our fundies, or whether the woman is expected to vote the way her husband or father tells her to.

I know that one of the big problems in Saudi is that the children are considered to belong to the father and the mother has no rights at all. Another thing that the State Department warns about is that if you're an American (or other foreign) woman and you marry a Saudi and go to Saudi Arabia, your husband can legally keep you in the country against your will.

One of our fundies, Zsuzsanna says she doesn't vote because she believes it's against the Bible to do so, even if she were to vote the way PP does.

[keen23]

Has anyone ever read any of the "Sultana" books by Jean Sasson? She befriended a Saudi Princess and wrote at least three books about her life living behind the veil in Saudi Arabia. The stories are sometimes horrific, and this is a woman who lives a privileged life with servants and unending supplies of money.

[VeraAnne]

I'm pretty sure that all the women of the fundie blogs I read vote. However, I do remember a lot of backlash against Sarah Palin in '08 because they wouldn't vote for a woman...even one who shared their political beliefs.