Webster4Eva 11: They don't know it's not vitally important to teach a 5 year old how to choose a man

[JermajestyDuggar]

I like this quote in particular when talking about skinny and fat shaming:

”But fatphobia is a different playing field, not one that needs to be compared on a greater or lesser scale, but one that must be acknowledged as a separate battle.”

Edited February 13, 2022 by JermajestyDuggar

[HerNameIsBuffy]

11 minutes ago, JermajestyDuggar said:

The thing is, fat phobia is systemic in our culture while skinny shaming is not. That’s the biggest difference between the two.

Heres another link if you want. This is just one woman’s opinion. But she brings up how fat shaming is systemic. There are plenty of links I can provide stating that fat shaming and skinny shaming are inherently different due to our culture and beliefs around fatness.

https://thecurvyfashionista.com/skinny-shaming/

Of course it's more systemic, that doesn't mean it's worse for the person experiencing it and no anecdotal data can qualify who feels more terrible about what.  

You can't quantify emotional pain, but even if it could be proven that the personal pain experienced from fat shaming is worse statistically, that doesn't mean anything on the individual level so why is this even relevant.

People should just stop sitting in judgment of the bodies of others and keep their eyes on their own paper.  I know it will never happen, but I'm not sure what the goal is to make sure people agree fat shaming is worse....it only serves to make it seem like thin shaming is more okay in comparison when it should just be stop commenting on the bodies of random people in your life.

[JermajestyDuggar]

Just now, HerNameIsBuffy said:

Of course it's more systemic, that doesn't mean it's worse for the person experiencing it and no anecdotal data can qualify who feels more terrible about what.  

You can't quantify emotional pain, but even if it could be proven that the personal pain experienced from fat shaming is worse statistically, that doesn't mean anything on the individual level so why is this even relevant.

People should just stop sitting in judgment of the bodies of others and keep their eyes on their own paper.  I know it will never happen, but I'm not sure what the goal is to make sure people agree fat shaming is worse....it only serves to make it seem like thin shaming is more okay in comparison when it should just be stop commenting on the bodies of random people in your life.

Did you see my quote that I liked at the top of the page? It said that it’s not about comparing what’s worse or better, but acknowledging that they are two totally different things. That’s been my point all along. They both suck. But they are two very different things that can’t be compared. 

[HerNameIsBuffy]

Just now, JermajestyDuggar said:

Did you see my quote that I liked at the top of the page? It said that it’s not about comparing what’s worse or better, but acknowledging that they are two totally different things. That’s been my point all along. They both suck. But they are two very different things that can’t be compared. 

I saw the quote and I'm bowing out of this conversation.  

[SunnySide]

3 hours ago, HerNameIsBuffy said:

I've also dealt with both.  By which I mean I've been both too thin and overweight, but the only time I've been body shamed was when I was too thin.  I am aware it does happen more frequently to those who are overweight, but I've just never experienced it personally.

 

That article starts out with a story that is so extreme as to be exceedingly rare if it ever happened, and then proclaims that happens to fat people "all the time" which is absolutely does not.

I didn't finish reading as the premise is so OTT it's something out Buzzfeed or the Onion.

While I don’t disagree that the article has an extreme example I think you’re really missing the boat on some key points on how most people in society treat the overweight. I  have been obese and then too thin. As I say I’ve been a size two, a size 22, and everything in between at least once. I have been fat shamed and skinny shamed. Imagine losing weight and having the people who called you fatass scream at you for being skinny, saying you did it only to fit in. That’s what I’ve dealt with. I’ve also been shoved in a locker, kicked in the side and asked if that made my fat go away. I’ve had family members screech at me over weight gain, but never weight loss. That’s usually a “you could be skinnier” comment. I am  not unique to this. I know many, many people with horror stories similar to mine. I know that I’m not supposed to assume everyone’s life story but I’m going to have to call complete and total bullshit on you only being skinny shamed. People of average weight, people who are thin, and even people who are heavy themselves LOVE to get after overweight people. If you’ve ever been heavy (as you claim) there is no way you haven’t been fat shamed even a little bit. If by some weird twist of fate you’re actually telling the truth you have experienced a genuine miracle by societal standards and are living either amongst really nice people or they’re throwing shade so deep you can’t tell they’re being mean. People can and do get fat shamed ALL THE TIME. To say it “doesn’t happen to fat people all the time” is so insanely tone deaf that I can’t even comprehend what world you get to live in. My guess is that even when you’re “heavy” you’re still actually on the side of  normal or healthy weight thus getting you out of the fat shaming that almost everyone in society thinks they’re entitled to hurl at anyone overweight.  Since you don’t believe people get fat shamed all the time I’ll put back on the 50lbs I just lost and you can go to the doctor with me, grocery shopping with me, and to family events. I guarantee you everywhere we go someone will have something shitty to say about my weight gain. 

[HerNameIsBuffy]

18 minutes ago, SunnySide said:

To say it “doesn’t happen to fat people all the time” is so insanely tone deaf that I can’t even comprehend what world you get to live in.

Believe what you want, but don't misquote me.

What I said was that the example in that article which says random strangers come up to people eating in public, take their drink from them and fling it to the ground and scream at them about what they are eating or not happens to fat people "all the time" is asinine.

A good percentage of public is overweight, if this was a regular occurrence everyone would witness it all the time.  

THAT was what I said doesn't happen all the time.  And it doesn't.

[SunnySide]

3 hours ago, HerNameIsBuffy said:

That article starts out with a story that is so extreme as to be exceedingly rare if it ever happened, and then proclaims that happens to fat people "all the time" which is absolutely does not.

Here’s your own quote. I wouldn’t dare misquote you, and I’m pretty sure you know that’s what I wasn’t doing in my response, but nice try. Did you ever bother to think that when they say “that” happens to fat people all the time they meant “that” in a general sense? As in fat shaming. Not in the extremely specific exact circumstances in the story? Which I do think is an extreme example of body shaming. “That” can be used specifically or generally. Maybe the writer made  poor point in not being extremely specific. 

Did you also ever bother to think as you were typing when you meant “that” as a very specific reference to one insane incident that it might come across just as vaguely as the author of the articles use of “that”? It is also painfully obvious from multiple posts on the subject  that you’re on the side of those being skinny shamed with absolutely no room for deviation, and  complete lack of ability to see any gray area in the situation, let alone fathom the fact that people have been fat-shamed a lot longer and are fat shamed way more than people are skinny shamed. Both are harmful and neither should be tolerated in society. 

Edited February 13, 2022 by SunnySide

[SassyPants]

Here’s the simple POV from your average size 8. While individuals might skinny shame, society, medicine, science, businesses, ALL fat shame. Unless one is dangerously thin, the totally of society does not skinny shame. There is far more envy of the  thin- no one envíes the overweight. 

[eljayem]

On 2/12/2022 at 5:12 AM, JermajestyDuggar said:

I don’t know if the Bates family practices religious fasting, but I think religious fasting in a huge family that already has some food insecurity must make thing 100 times worse. Anytime a fundie talks about fasting (like in the Rod family), it makes me worry for them. It’s just a difficult food situation made worse in my opinion. 

The Bates have fasted at least once - it was either after their 18/19th kid and the whole family decided to fast and pray so KJ could get pregnant again. It got a lot media coverage and it probably helped them get their own TV show. I think in the tv interview the parents made it sound like it was the kids idea - none of them were married at this stage and all living at home.

I can totally imagine the Bates parents using fasting as a manipulative weapon on their kids early on... not now that so many of their kids are adults/married and out of the house.

[Jackie3]

On 2/11/2022 at 8:59 AM, HerNameIsBuffy said:

Thank you for the clarification.  You are right, I was conflating ED with disordered eating.  I received extensive treatment for mine 100 years ago as a teen (including inpatient at one point) and some tune ups with various therapists over the years and I'd never had one draw that distinction before, but Professor Google confirmed you're right and they are two distinct things.

Thanks - I learned something new today.

No problem. I'm sorry you went through that. I hear it can be devastating. I know a bit about disordered eating bc of a family member. It is not the same as an ED, but it can still be destructive.

On 2/12/2022 at 12:56 AM, SorenaJ said:

"Influencer" (which is the most bollocks term in the universe, as they are the least influential people ever. They influence fuck all) is not a dream career for everyone. I am not an "influencer", and I am thrilled! 

 

Being an influencer would be a nightmare job for me. I doubt Michaela or Tori would enjoy it either. They seem like very private people. Their weight has nothing to do with it, I don't think they'd enjoy the job no matter what their BMI

[GuineaPigCourtship]

I am pretty fat and I've had my fair share of fatphobia, but no stranger has ever thrown my food or drinks on the ground. Even people I know have at best made pointed comments about me eating (again?). 

The most absurd and aggressive fat shaming I experienced was from a client when I was working at an ER. I'm a vet and I was seeing a cat for heart disease. It had a history of a murmur that he never worked up, and now it had a blood clot and couldn't walk. I happen to be very familiar with this condition as it's how my first cat died while I was in school.

Anyway, this man was so unhappy with my diagnosis that he stormed into the waiting area and started ranting about how I was too fat to be an actual vet. No one who knew anything about medicine would allow themselves to look like this. He started asking the receptionist (my brother) what his diagnosis was. Eventually, he took the cat and left. Later, he called our other hospital to tell them how fat I was and how I misdiagnosed his cat. The communication notes were something to read.

I felt bad for the cat, but this was so over the top I still laugh about it 6 years later. Which is to say, yes, it happens as @SunnySide said, but is exceedingly rare as @HerNameIsBuffy said. Less blatant fat shaming happens allllllll the time and makes a much less compelling story.

[JermajestyDuggar]

I decided awhile ago that yelling things out the car window at strangers is basically the internet. I remember times where I would be walking down a sidewalk or road and people would yell things like “fat ass” and think it was the most hilarious thing ever. It’s like the internet. You can say shitty things without facing people because you are driving away in a car. The internet is similar because people say shitty things they would never say face to face. I always imagined people yelling fat ass then getting a flat or breaking down right there and I walk by looking at them smiling. They would probably feel very differently if they then had to face me. I’m talking adult or young adults. Kids will flat out say it to your face. They do the over the top things no one would believe if I told you. 

Edited February 14, 2022 by JermajestyDuggar

[backyard sylph]

Today I was teaching a fairly sizeable young man who usually works in customer service how to do pickup shopping, and whenever we'd have to move around each other or back up the trolley or something, he'd say sorry, and people do say sorry allll the time here, 😐 but I got to thinking about it...and I think the large-sized people I work with say it the most. 

And so I am wondering if they just feel in the way, or felt that way in the past, and think they need to apologize for taking some more space. Well, there never is much space, everyone has to move around everyone else, and the nine tote trolleys, and then the mad narrow spaces in the back room and hallway. I tell customers who feel they need to move their carts for me, "We're all in each other's way, it's how things are in these aisles," and they nod and laugh, most of the time. 

Anyway, if someone feels like they have to apologize all the time just for being there, someone else made them feel that way, and that sucks. And what I think is that while people here are not usually outwardly rude toward fat people these days, they probably do still find all kinds of little ways to be insulting anyway. 

It is burdensome, but necessary, to realize everyone is an actual vulnerable human who is feeling several different things at any point in time.

Edited February 15, 2022 by backyard sylph
' not ;

[freethemall]

If she's drinking this much coffee while binging fast and processed food, she may be inadvertently using the caffeine as a laxative to purge. Same way a lot of these women rely on those skinny teas, they're all just shitting a lot! 

[Tatar-tot]

Alyssa’s house tour was interesting.  I think the thing that blew me away was how many times Alyssa made reference to something being neat, cleaned or organized.  Then the closet under the steps she refers to as a disaster. Hubby opens the door and there a few boxes neatly placed on the floor towards the back.  Alyssa must have some major OCD going on.  Can you imagine what she going to do if one of the girls blew erasers from their desk on to the floor?  Yikes!!!

I love a glass top table but dang those corners ——- they are an accident waiting to happen.  We covered all corners with clear stick on silicone corners.  I am so tempted to send her a set. 

Edited February 20, 2022 by Tatar-tot

[VixenToast]

As someone diagnosed with disordered eating, this is a tough convo. If she’s like me, she loads up on caffeine and eats the protein when she gets lightheaded. Some days I load myself up on caffeine and only eat dinner. Other days I gorge. Every day my guilt says I’m fat and I should throw it up, but I only can when I’ve been drinking. More often than not, I starve myself until I’m ravenous with hunger. Idk why I do it. It’s… frustrating. I’ve given up on my buying myself food at the store (I’ll buy the kiddo food) and stick to fast food when I’m starving hungry. Then the guilt cycle starts again. 

Disordered eating. Mental Illness. Depression. Yay. Such fun. Plus being a mom.

I have lots of self improvement to do, and Alyssa likely does too.

imma take a nice, healthy walk today and feel good about myself, guys. That and have a third cup of coffee.

Edited February 20, 2022 by VixenToast
I loves the coffee

[AussieKrissy]

8 hours ago, VixenToast said:

As someone diagnosed with disordered eating, this is a tough convo. If she’s like me, she loads up on caffeine and eats the protein when she gets lightheaded. Some days I load myself up on caffeine and only eat dinner. Other days I gorge. Every day my guilt says I’m fat and I should throw it up, but I only can when I’ve been drinking. More often than not, I starve myself until I’m ravenous with hunger. Idk why I do it. It’s… frustrating. I’ve given up on my buying myself food at the store (I’ll buy the kiddo food) and stick to fast food when I’m starving hungry. Then the guilt cycle starts again. 

Disordered eating. Mental Illness. Depression. Yay. Such fun. Plus being a mom.

I have lots of self improvement to do, and Alyssa likely does too.

imma take a nice, healthy walk today and feel good about myself, guys. That and have a third cup of coffee.

Babes, sending you love light and healing, 

May every day not feel like an up hill battle and may the better days start to out way the bad 

Mental health is a bitch, man.

 

[SimplyMe]

9 hours ago, VixenToast said:

As someone diagnosed with disordered eating, this is a tough convo. If she’s like me, she loads up on caffeine and eats the protein when she gets lightheaded. Some days I load myself up on caffeine and only eat dinner. Other days I gorge. Every day my guilt says I’m fat and I should throw it up, but I only can when I’ve been drinking. More often than not, I starve myself until I’m ravenous with hunger. Idk why I do it. It’s… frustrating. I’ve given up on my buying myself food at the store (I’ll buy the kiddo food) and stick to fast food when I’m starving hungry. Then the guilt cycle starts again. 

Disordered eating. Mental Illness. Depression. Yay. Such fun. Plus being a mom.

I have lots of self improvement to do, and Alyssa likely does too.

imma take a nice, healthy walk today and feel good about myself, guys. That and have a third cup of coffee.

I feel the hurt in your words above.  I hope you’ll find a really good HAES-informed dietician in your area and a therapist with knowledge of eating disorders / disordered eating.  You CAN recover and free your brain from all of the disordered thoughts and allow room for so much more joy and freedom.   
 

Wishing you wellness and healing.  
 

- from a mama with a daughter in recovery from anorexia.  

[Ali]

I won't dispute that coffee and turkey bacon for two meals a day is not healthy eating, but I am very uncomfortable with so many diagnosing eating disorders over the internet. 

Some are blessed with a high metabolism and cannot gain weight. One of the biggest benefits for me for nursing was a huge appetite. I ate huge amounts at meals and snacks. My husband was sad he no longer got to eat my remnants from meals because I always stop eating when I am full. I don't know if Josie nurses or not. Either way it it is ridiculous to make any assumptions about eating disorders due to how much food she has on her plate. It is not uncommon for me to put too much on my plate when I am really hungry. I stop eating when I full.

Edited February 21, 2022 by Ali

[Keys]

2 hours ago, Ali said:

I won't dispute that coffee and turkey bacon for two meals a day is not healthy eating, but I am very uncomfortable with so many diagnosing eating disorders over the internet. 

Some are blessed with a high metabolism and cannot gain weight. One of the biggest benefits for me for nursing was a huge appetite. I ate huge amounts at meals and snacks. My husband was sad he no longer got to eat my remnants from meals because I always stop eating when I am full. I don't know if Josie nurses or not. Either way it it is ridiculous to make any assumptions about eating disorders due to how much food she has on her plate. It is not uncommon for me to put too much on my plate when I am really hungry. I stop eating when I full.

I may have missed it, but I don’t think anyone had jumped to the conclusion of diagnosing an eating disorder (which I agree shouldn’t be speculated on!), but rather commented on disordered eating - there’s a big difference there, and it’s fair to raise concerns about someone with a large social media platform endorsing that (presumably who has lots of female teen followers, who are especially susceptible to body image concerns and disordered eating trends)

[just_ordinary]

I don’t have a problem with speculation about things you see on a public social media account. Just as speculating about stuff/people you pass on the street and they for whatever reason make you note something about them. I am uncomfortable with armchair/keyboard diagnosing but it happens and as long as it doesn’t manifest in a “truth” I try to ignore it. (Not saying that’s happening here a lot!)

What I find unrealistic is demanding people with a big public SM presence act like role models for the people that follow. Would that be nice? Sure. But they can showcase their life and life choices in whatever way they want and don’t have any obligation to do otherwise. Children and teenage have always been impressionable. It’s their parents job to teach them to notice fakes, hypocrisy, rip offs and so on. I don’t deny that it seems there is more pressure with SM but I am actually not sure if there are real big scientific studies about it that prove it’s worse than say, the Heroine chic pressure from the late 90s/early2000 when eating disorders seemed to be the norm in every second teen. (Later it was self violation and now it’s anxiety.)

Alyssa is free to be super skinny with whatever method she chooses to and she doesn’t even have to disclose it to anyone. I might not agree with it, and hope she is well health wise (especially with her medical background) but there is no way you can demand it or say she has a responsibility. She doesn’t push it on people- people go to her channels by themselves. She doesn’t really interact with them at all. 
In the end people can’t win. If they show the truth they get slagged off, if they show a curated version they are liars. But it also goes the other way. If you actively choose the public domain to make money by selling out your life (or just stay public enough to create interest in yourself) you cannot complain if people talk negatively about you. That’s the two sides of the coin. 🤷‍♀️

[JermajestyDuggar]

I understand dress up days at AWANA but I don’t get why there would be dress up like a baby night. 

[Expectopatronus]

I love the Classic Pooh toys! If anyone knows where I can order them, let me know, please! I want them for my daughter. I love the original A.A. Milne stories and E.H. Shepard illustrations 

[front hugs > duggs]

@JermajestyDuggar I also was initially thrown off at that. And while I'm sure there's a ton of sexism behind their reasoning for having a "baby night", I remember in elementary school dressing up as babies for Halloween with all of my friends and thinking it was so funny at the time.

I'm guessing AWANA is co-ed? I wonder if boys dress up as babies too, or if its just for the girls.

[JermajestyDuggar]

22 minutes ago, front hugs > duggs said:

@JermajestyDuggar I also was initially thrown off at that. And while I'm sure there's a ton of sexism behind their reasoning for having a "baby night", I remember in elementary school dressing up as babies for Halloween with all of my friends and thinking it was so funny at the time.

I'm guessing AWANA is co-ed? I wonder if boys dress up as babies too, or if its just for the girls.

My kids probably would have refused. “I’m not a baby!” Was a common utterance when they were that age. Being called a baby is usually an insult to kids.