(Possible CSA Warning) Josh & Anna 36: Waiting for the Trial

[Snarkasarus Rex]

Josh strikes me as the type to withhold key info from his own lawyers…I wonder if this witness is a surprise to them?

I also wonder if they regret taking this case. 🤔

[Jana814]

24 minutes ago, Snarkasarus Rex said:

Josh strikes me as the type to withhold key info from his own lawyers…I wonder if this witness is a surprise to them?

I also wonder if they regret taking this case. 🤔

Definitely that is something he would do. I still say he’s surprised that people are making a big deal about this. He thinks he better then everyone. 

[Antimony]

16 hours ago, Mama Mia said:

I used to think that way, when the first molestations became known, but I don’t know if I think that anymore. I used to think that the combination of all sins being roughly equal, putting all “kids” as being the same level of autonomy regardless of age (no difference between a 5 year old and a 15 year old as far as independence) , and it initially seeming like the most it was was some slightly wandering hands — combined with the horrific victim blaming and lack of normal teenage sexual curiosity and outlets — that it was more crimes of opportunity and stupidity.
BUT, now I think it’s a compulsion. If it wasn’t, I don’t think he would have more severely molested his much younger, awake, little sisters, after having already been caught. And  I definitely don’t think he would of gone the on-line affair route after just having his whole world fall apart due to a scandal (he could of just snuck around with someone he met at a bar ) Or the partitioning his computer to purposefully download the worst sort of CSA then asking the cops if that’s what they were looking for. He seems truly compelled to f*ck up his life - and everyone around him - in the worst possible ways that have the highest possibility of getting  him caught.  
Im sure the way he was raised didn’t help - but I think he might have been a similar sort of f* up no matter what his family believed. 

I cut this from my original post because it felt a little too weird but maybe it clarifies where I stand. It feels like Josh was born with some sort of seed of evil with him and it was nurtured in every possible way. He still could have come out screwed up in a normal family, people do, but I think the major weight in this particular cosmic die is due to the IBLP. We also have some evidence that childhood abuse is a risk factor and I think anyway you slice it, the IBLP is psycho-sexual abuse even at it's best, and physical-sexual abuse at it's worst, and physical abuse at it's standard (blanket training, etc, etc, etc). (I really don't like suggesting a seed of evil can exist in people because it kind of interferes with my assume-others-are-doing-their-best philosophy that I use to survive a day-to-day basis, but you know, Josh isn't part of my day to day life so maybe I can drop it here.)

The Ashley Madison thing wasn't moral and it wasn't ethical and it was also way more expensive than cheating should be  (Like...clearly Josh is also stupid...) but at least it was an age-appropriate transgression. I also suspect there's some very serious arrested development here. Does that even need to be a suspicion? Its like stating that the sky is blue, I guess. 

5 hours ago, gustava said:

WTF😐

Nobody knows! Said inmate does have a sex crime on record but one against an adult, and I don't think anybody involved in CSAM would testify against Josh in that meant incriminating themselves. (An early theory was that it was somebody involved in a CSAM ring but that seems more like a true-crime fiction than what is happening in reality.) If it is a jailhouse confession, we're back to the black comedy vibe that Josh started when he asked, "What, has somebody been downloading child porn?" and when the lawyers failed to realized they had represented one of the guys Josh wanted to pin it on and should have known that dudes very solid alibi. 

[BensAllergies]

The subpoena asks for access to the incarcerated witness from Nov 30 - Dec 3. I wonder if that indicates how long the trial will last. I think I read at some point that CSAM trials are fairly short so that timeline would make sense.

[Anne Of Gray Gables]

52 minutes ago, Antimony said:

Nobody knows! Said inmate does have a sex crime on record but one against an adult, and I don't think anybody involved in CSAM would testify against Josh in that meant incriminating themselves. (An early theory was that it was somebody involved in a CSAM ring but that seems more like a true-crime fiction than what is happening in reality.) If it is a jailhouse confession, we're back to the black comedy vibe that Josh started when he asked, "What, has somebody been downloading child porn?" and when the lawyers failed to realized they had represented one of the guys Josh wanted to pin it on and should have known that dudes very solid alibi. 

I'm unclear as to whether it's been confirmed this guy was in the clinker with Josh, but I can see Mr. Loose-lips oversharing out of sheer boredom and the fact that his ever-present phone was not with him. I could even see him feeling some need to confess to someone and being too stupid to realize a person facing his own charges could end up a witness against him.  I'd be surprised if it related to a broader crime, as Josh's charges don't extend beyond the described downloads.  So best guess would be a jailhouse confession.

The prosecution is throwing everything at a guy who has no discernable defenses.  It's as if they are saying "Plead guilty now, you idiot, and end this. No one wants to hear anymore about what you looked at".

[JermajestyDuggar]

I can’t help but side eye the shit out of all “jail house confessions.” Everyone in jail is looking for a deal. 

[feministxtian]

23 minutes ago, Anne Of Gray Gables said:

The prosecution is throwing everything at a guy who has no discernable defenses.  It's as if they are saying "Plead guilty now, you idiot, and end this. No one wants to hear anymore about what you looked at".

And the defense still keeps throwing shit on a wall but none of it is sticking. Wonder how much of that is to relieve JB of his cash? 

[Smee]

12 minutes ago, JermajestyDuggar said:

I can’t help but side eye the shit out of all “jail house confessions.” Everyone in jail is looking for a deal. 

Yes, this. I actually think it’s a bad move by the prosecution, they have more than enough evidence without it and jailhouse confessions are notoriously unreliable. They’d be better off just finding him guilty without it, so he can’t use it as grounds for appeal if the witness later recants.

[Anne Of Gray Gables]

2 minutes ago, feministxtian said:

And the defense still keeps throwing shit on a wall but none of it is sticking. Wonder how much of that is to relieve JB of his cash? 

We all work for money. Josh has a right to defend himself through trial. His attorneys will happily oblige with Jim Bob providing the do-re-mi to keep trying things. At some point though, Josh is going to have to decide for himself if going to trial will actually be worth it.  I'm not sure how it might work, but I think the government will make him an offer that will be better than what a post-conviction sentence is likely to be. If his attorneys tell him a conviction is all but certain, he'd be incredibly stupid not to take fewer years.

[Bassett Lady]

I was talking about this case with a friend who is a defense lawyer. She will take almost any kind of case except child sexual abuse. She says she cannot describe the toll it takes on her emotionally. She says she would rather go bankrupt and live under a bridge than take those kinds of cases. 
 

Her opinion, after giving the case and current evidence a cursory glance, is that Josh is an idiot for passing on the plea deal. 
 

She says he will probably need to be in a protected unit while incarcerated, because while he may not have been tried or convicted for the abuse against his sisters , especially the assault of Joy, it will be known amongst the incarcerated. She said jailhouse “justice” is a very real phenomenon. 
 

I just want him locked up and physically away from children. I don’t think there is a punishment that is adequate for what he did. I also doubt there is a chance of reforming Josh at this stage in his development. Therefore the only thing left is to protect the children he would have access to by incarcerating him. 

[Anne Of Gray Gables]

2 minutes ago, Smee said:

Yes, this. I actually think it’s a bad move by the prosecution, they have more than enough evidence without it and jailhouse confessions are notoriously unreliable. They’d be better off just finding him guilty without it, so he can’t use it as grounds for appeal if the witness later recants.

It doesn't mean they'll actually use him. This could all be part of the pressure they are putting on Josh to plead guilty. 

[Marshmallow World]

1 minute ago, Anne Of Gray Gables said:

We all work for money. Josh has a right to defend himself through trial. His attorneys will happily oblige with Jim Bob providing the do-re-mi to keep trying things. At some point though, Josh is going to have to decide for himself if going to trial will actually be worth it.  I'm not sure how it might work, but I think the government will make him an offer that will be better than what a post-conviction sentence is likely to be. If his attorneys tell him a conviction is all but certain, he'd be incredibly stupid not to take fewer years.

This is an excellent post. To piggy-back off of it, attorneys are also bound to do what their client wants. They could tell Josh until they are blue in the face that he will 100% be convicted, and if he still doesn't plea, they must advocate for him to the best of their ability. This means drafting novel motions and objecting to every witness and piece of evidence they can. In fact, an attorney can find themselves making some stupid arguments sometimes based on what clients direct.

Case in point (and just for laughs): 

Spoiler

 

[Jess]

33 minutes ago, Bassett Lady said:

I was talking about this case with a friend who is a defense lawyer. She will take almost any kind of case except child sexual abuse. She says she cannot describe the toll it takes on her emotionally. She says she would rather go bankrupt and live under a bridge than take those kinds of cases. 
 

Her opinion, after giving the case and current evidence a cursory glance, is that Josh is an idiot for passing on the plea deal. 
 

She says he will probably need to be in a protected unit while incarcerated, because while he may not have been tried or convicted for the abuse against his sisters , especially the assault of Joy, it will be known amongst the incarcerated. She said jailhouse “justice” is a very real phenomenon. 
 

I just want him locked up and physically away from children. I don’t think there is a punishment that is adequate for what he did. I also doubt there is a chance of reforming Josh at this stage in his development. Therefore the only thing left is to protect the children he would have access to by incarcerating him. 

Yeah he will be in the federal system so he will probably end up at one of the prisons with a offender program. While Josh would probably be dumb enough to want to go into general population at the nearest prison it won’t really be his choice in the end and it’s not like the people who decide which prison want the bad publicity that even a F list celebrity, convicted of these crimes, being killed or seriously hurt would bring.

[imokit]

1 hour ago, Bassett Lady said:

She says he will probably need to be in a protected unit while incarcerated, because while he may not have been tried or convicted for the abuse against his sisters , especially the assault of Joy, it will be known amongst the incarcerated. She said jailhouse “justice” is a very real phenomenon. 

Convicted felons will be more angry about what happened to the Duggar daughters than the Duggar parents 😥 because even drug dealers and murders know that child sexual offenses are a different league to murder/drugs.

[EmmieJ]

8 hours ago, Snarkasarus Rex said:

Josh strikes me as the type to withhold key info from his own lawyers…I wonder if this witness is a surprise to them?

I also wonder if they regret taking this case. 🤔

I doubt it, they get paid no matter the result. ETA:  I don't mean that Ina disparaging way.  They were hired to defend him and they were aware of the charges when they took the case.

Edited November 14, 2021 by EmmieJ

[feministxtian]

1 hour ago, imokit said:

Convicted felons will be more angry about what happened to the Duggar daughters than the Duggar parents 😥 because even drug dealers and murders know that child sexual offenses are a different league to murder/drugs.

From people I know who served time in county...they sequester the sex offenders. They're even hated by the rapists. It is dangerous for them to be in gen pop. Most CSA convicts, if left in gen pop have a rather short lifespan and nobody knows nothing about that body laying there. Nobody saw nothing. And also from what I understand, the jail/prison doesn't look too hard for who might have done it. 

[sndral]

2 hours ago, JermajestyDuggar said:

I can’t help but side eye the shit out of all “jail house confessions.” Everyone in jail is looking for a deal. 

IME most inmates want to avoid being labeled a snitch because that label can get you killed inside.

Jurors are rightly suspicious of inmates who testify in exchange for a lesser sentence & IME (non federal) a jury instruction will be given telling them to treat that testimony w/ caution, thus although prosecutors are sometimes approached by defense attorneys w/ clients who want to offer evidence for a better deal, experienced prosecutors don’t often use inmate testimony in the scenario presented in Josh’s case. I suppose there’s a possibility that the conversation between Josh & his cellmate could have been recorded in which case the evidence would be more persuasive.

The Feds do use the testimony of little fish to get bigger fish, but Josh’s situation is different - it’s presumably someone he shared a cell with before Josh was released. Maybe Josh chatted about what he’d been up to, maybe he unburdened himself to a ‘friendly’ ear, maybe Josh asked if his cellmate knew how to protect downloads from prying government eyes.

7 hours ago, Snarkasarus Rex said:

Josh strikes me as the type to withhold key info from his own lawyers…I wonder if this witness is a surprise to them?

I also wonder if they regret taking this case. 🤔

The evidence would not be a surprise to the defense attorneys because Josh’s attorneys would have received discovery from the prosecution likely in the form of a LE report detailing whatever evidence the inmate provided & that report would have gone to the defense months ago.

Having an inmate testify is always interesting, for one thing there’s extra security in the courtroom, and often that inmate’s attorney is present as well. Sometimes the inmate is hostile, especially if he/she is being compelled to testify because they have no 5th amendment protection for whatever they’ll be asked about. Sometimes they’ll go completely sideways & change their story on the stand & then the prosecutor has to impeach their own witness.
I’m very interested in this development because the evidence the cellmate has to offer has to be pretty solid for the prosecutors to risk putting him on the stand.

Regarding the scheduling of the inmate’s testimony, assuming they’re being brought from in custody elsewhere it’s just easier to get them there & keep them in custody locally until the case goes to the jury. You never know how long jury selection will take, plus w/ a winter trial you may lose a day or two because of an ill juror (& not want to burn through your alternates,) Judge, or attorney, and even once they testify the witness needs to be available until the end of the trial in case they need to be recalled to the stand.
 

[EmCatlyn]

9 hours ago, Snarkasarus Rex said:

Josh strikes me as the type to withhold key info from his own lawyers…I wonder if this witness is a surprise to them?

I also wonder if they regret taking this case. 🤔

Probably not.  They get paid either way.  And I bet he is not the first person they have defended who has withheld information.

5 hours ago, BensAllergies said:

The subpoena asks for access to the incarcerated witness from Nov 30 - Dec 3. I wonder if that indicates how long the trial will last. I think I read at some point that CSAM trials are fairly short so that timeline would make sense.

Seems to me this shows how long the prosecution anticipates they will need to present their case— not how long the trial itself will last.  Probably they don’t know exactly when they will call the witness (if at all) but that it will fall in one of those days.

[AussieKrissy]

22 hours ago, Anne Of Gray Gables said:

Normal 15 year old boys are interested in girls their own age or attractive older women (or men, as the case may be).  Never 5 year olds.  

Josh is as sick today as he was 20 years ago. And he'll probably be just as sick 20 years from now. We'll probably never know why, but I don't think you can blame his pedophilia on his upbringing.  I think we can guess that his status as first born male in an extremely patriarchal home gave him a sense of entitlement and maybe emboldened him to do what he wanted to do. But this still doesn't explain his sexual attraction to small children which continues even now that he has his own little girls.  Also, as others have noted, his brothers don't seem to have any such perversions.

I don't know what's wrong with him or with any other sick person who does these things. In Josh's case though his parents not only failed to help and protect their daughters, they missed an early opportunity to get Josh help before he grew up. At this point, he's likely completely irredeemable. And when he's released, he must be kept away from children, including his own.

I could not agree more perfectly said 

[just_ordinary]

On 11/14/2021 at 1:52 AM, Coconut Flan said:

 

She's all about sticking her feet out in front of her and looking like a bull frog.  I can barely tolerate a very, very few of her interviews.  Yes, she cuts people off far too much.

Her interviews are solely to give people a stage for self promotion in exchange for Oprah promoting herself as well. She cuts people off, acts overdramatic and never asks any complicated or critical follow up question.   Those interviews are not about information per se, they are like movie promotion interviews. 
And while I don’t fault Oprah- she built a big business for herself and that’s a major accomplishment- she has no journalistic qualities whatsoever and doesn’t care about journalistic techniques or ethics at all. 
And with her long time relationship to Weinstein and never distancing herself I don’t think she is the right person to interview a woman that was sexually abused. 

[Four is Enough]

20 hours ago, JermajestyDuggar said:

I can’t help but side eye the shit out of all “jail house confessions.” Everyone in jail is looking for a deal. 

Yes, they are. But inmates brag about their own exploits.. to their cellmates. I'm sure the stories are embellished to make them look better. I can tell when my son, currently incarcerated, has been talking to others. His stories to me are full of more detail.

18 hours ago, imokit said:

Convicted felons will be more angry about what happened to the Duggar daughters than the Duggar parents 😥 because even drug dealers and murders know that child sexual offenses are a different league to murder/drugs.

Again. The child mentioned above would call me and ask me to look up new inmates on Case Search.. if they had a sex offense, the group he hung with would not associate with them. At first I thought it was "so high school" but it seems to be a pervasive thing.

[Sullie06]

I think Josh's offenses are multi-layered.  If you look at the initial offenses, I do think there was a layer of opportunity involved.  Familial Sexual Abuse is actually the most common form of adolescent sexual abuse we see (usually either siblings, cousins, same aged nieces/nephews and aunt/uncles) and many times, it's not necessarily a pedophilia driven offense, as much as it is an offense of access. These young kids have more access to family members, and many times if the offender is older, they have a level of authority (or perceived authority) over the victim. Adolescent sexual abuse is often about control.  The biggest disservice JB and Michelle did to their children's was not seeking appropriate therapeutic services for both Josh and his victims.  Who knows if Josh was given the proper specialized therapeutic services when he was young, if it would have helped. We have offenders who complete a program and never re-offend and we have those who re-offend immediately. They also would have been able to isolate what drove his offenses. 

But, at this point, it's a moot point. 

Because, Josh's current offenses are pedophilia driven. He's not 14 anymore and he had access to a whole internet full of Porn. He could have chosen to download adult porn legally. He chose to seek out CP and he did so knowing it was wrong (using firewalls and such to get around anonymously, or so he thought). Who knows if he went through specialized treatment as an adolescent if it could have prevented this new offense but at this point, I don't know if he will ever successfully complete a program. 

 

Edited November 15, 2021 by Sullie06

[AussieKrissy]

8 hours ago, just_ordinary said:

Her interviews are solely to give people a stage for self promotion in exchange for Oprah promoting herself as well. She cuts people off, acts overdramatic and never asks any complicated or critical follow up question.   Those interviews are not about information per se, they are like movie promotion interviews. 
And while I don’t fault Oprah- she built a big business for herself and that’s a major accomplishment- she has no journalistic qualities whatsoever and doesn’t care about journalistic techniques or ethics at all. 
And with her long time relationship to Weinstein and never distancing herself I don’t think she is the right person to interview a woman that was sexually abused. 

Wow you said it way better than me and you are so right. 
Also I didn’t know the Weinstein stuff. 
it makes me said because I thought she would not be involved with someone like that. I base this on my knowledge of her childhood. Which I am sad was released without her approval by someone in the family but never less she herself has a history of abuse. 

[So-Virgin-It-Hurts]

All this Oprah talk made me recall a memory. I was in graduate school in Chicago during the 1980s. With our infrequent free-time a friend and I started a tradition of our "adventures." We alternated planning and the only rule was that it had to cost less than $10.  One of my friend's adventures was seeing a taping of Oprah at Harpo Studios (it was free). 

Off-camera I'd describe her as aloof. I'll add that prior to taping audience members were moved around - I assume to feature the "favored look" of those that would be seen in audience shots. The show's topic was incredibly uninteresting and at it's conclusion you could line up to shake Oprah's hand. My friend insisted that we do so. 

Oprah talked to production people while she shook hands with her fans. There was no real interaction at all. When it was my turn I said, "Pleased to meet you" while shaking. She didn't look at me so I squeezed her hand (fairly hard). She turned and said, "Yes, I'm pleased to meet you." 

She really turned it off and on for the camera.

Edited November 16, 2021 by So-Virgin-It-Hurts
a word

[marmalade]

The judge has allowed for the material witness to testify. 

Meanwhile, the defense has added another attorney, this one a specialist in appeals. He's from Gelfand's firm. They are also arguing that the original police report was so well redacted that people can't be identified. REALLY????? The girls' lawsuit argues precisely the opposite, and the same judge has just allowed for that case to proceed to trial. The also are saying that Smuggar never confessed to sexually abusing the victims, even though he's confessed several times through the years. 

At this point, it really seems that the defense is spitballin' and seeing what sticks. These latest declarations scream desperation.