(Possible CSA Warning) Josh & Anna 36: Waiting for the Trial

[Coconut Flan]

Continued from here:

Not much is happening right now.  Anna appears to have had the baby, but no formal or even semi-formal announcement.  

[BensAllergies]

Non-updates from Court Listener.

There is one new addition from October 29th and one from November 1st. The first one simply declares that the government’s alibi request is moot. The second is a request from the government for forfeiture of the HP desktop. There’s been a couple articles about the second one but not much detail is included about why the government would request it or what it means.

[anjulibai]

Why is the alibi request moot? Does that mean that they aren't going to try to say that Josh wasn't there? 

[marmalade]

1 hour ago, anjulibai said:

Why is the alibi request moot? Does that mean that they aren't going to try to say that Josh wasn't there? 

Apparently so. No alibi. 

[gustava]

If Anna has had another M and wasn't allowed to announce it, then reality might be slightly, maybe, an iota beginning to rear its ugly head.

[Mama Mia]

2 hours ago, gustava said:

If Anna has had another M and wasn't allowed to announce it, then reality might be slightly, maybe, an iota beginning to rear its ugly head.

You’d think they’d do at least a family announcement through their main account. Wouldn’t need to be anything big - just a photo with new baby, maybe with siblings so they can avoid even identifying the parents, “We welcome our newest precious baby granddaughter, Madeline Faith, to our family. Mother and baby are healthy. God is always gracious and good”  Not doing one at all seems weirder. 

[louisa05]

13 minutes ago, Mama Mia said:

You’d think they’d do at least a family announcement through their main account. Wouldn’t need to be anything big - just a photo with new baby, maybe with siblings so they can avoid even identifying the parents, “We welcome our newest precious baby granddaughter, Madeline Faith, to our family. Mother and baby are healthy. God is always gracious and good”  Not doing one at all seems weirder. 

I’m thinking that with JB’s newly announced political campaign, they may have decided drawing extra attention to Josh is not the best idea. 

[BensAllergies]

There's a new document, filed today November 3rd, on Court Listener. It's another non-update but basically it looks like the government is moving forward with standard pretrial hearing motions in preparation for showcasing their evidence that Josh committed the crimes they say he did.

It confirms that - at least for now - the trial is moving forward as scheduled so there must be no change of plea.

[apiscue]

I think jimbob knows that his fame and prestige are gone and his political campaign is his last attempt to be relevant.

I don't think he'll mention josh again.

[SassyPants]

2 hours ago, Mama Mia said:

You’d think they’d do at least a family announcement through their main account. Wouldn’t need to be anything big - just a photo with new baby, maybe with siblings so they can avoid even identifying the parents, “We welcome our newest precious baby granddaughter, Madeline Faith, to our family. Mother and baby are healthy. God is always gracious and good”  Not doing one at all seems weirder. 

It also makes it look like they are holding the baby accountable. All the Duggars (any Duggar but Josh or Anna) would need to do is make an announcement welcoming the blessing with the name and date, and turn off comments to the post. I also think this announcement should come from JB and M’s account as they are the people who encouraged all this irresponsible procreation and enabled Josh from a young age.

[PinkGreyBrown]

The special election schedule has been set: the primary will be held on December 14, if a runoff is necessary from that it'll be held on January 11, & the special election itself will be held on February 8.

Smuggar's trial (if he does, indeed, go there) may or may not have concluded by the time of the primary. Probably, would be my bet.

If I had to place a bet, I'd say that JimBob is gonna have at least an oblique 'we are being persecuted' plank in his electoral platform if not outright 'my son is being targeted'. My experience is that shameless lying is a hallmark shared characteristic of Trumplicans -- tho' they may truly believe their confabulations.

Edited November 3, 2021 by PinkGreyBrown
ETA that last bit

[Antimony]

We've got a bit of docu-dump and explainer over on the Reddit but I just wanna share this...

Quote

The Government is likewise aware that the defendant has made statements to potential witnesses that his current legal situation arose because he placed too much trust in felons or ex-convicts.

I mean, what a damn ghoul Josh is. The Government has very much explained that the ex-convict that Josh tried to blame this on was in jail at the time of the CSAM download, but that aside -- how absolutely positively ghoulish to try to pin this on somebody because on an unrelated past criminal conduct. This horse is so damn dead it's dust, but it's not very Christian of them all. 

[BensAllergies]

The real kicker from the document dump is that not only was one of the three witnesses incarcerated (as we knew), but two of the defense lawyers had previously represented him. So the defense speculated that he could have been the one to download the CSAM instead of Josh, but in the past they had defended him themselves. I’m not sure if they defended him for the crimes that led to him being incarcerated in May 2019, but you’d think lawyers would be smarter than that. After all of this was found out, the defense agreed to withdraw his name from the motion and only include speculation regarding the other two.

One of the two other witnesses was not employed at the lot until May 24, 2019, and the other witness has an alibi of being in a different state during the time of the CSAM downloads.

The government anticipates that Josh will employ the Shaggy defense (“it wasn’t me”) and that he’s not interested in CSAM. They are notifying the defense that they would like to include evidence about his child molestation past even though no charges were brought and he was not convicted.

[Chickenbutt]

If allowed, can you link the Reddit Doc Dump. I can never find anything on Reddit Thank you. 

 

[BensAllergies]

This is the link to the documents. Please note that #68 needs major content warnings.

https://www.courtlistener.com/docket/59871253/united-states-v-duggar/

[mpheels]

1 hour ago, BensAllergies said:

The government anticipates that Josh will employ the Shaggy defense (“it wasn’t me”) and that he’s not interested in CSAM. They are notifying the defense that they would like to include evidence about his child molestation past even though no charges were brought and he was not convicted.

This is where JB&M’s handling of the molestation will come back to bite them.  If they had gone through proper channels and sought real help for Josh, the behavior probable would never be public domain, and there would be real legal arguments against bringing his juvenile record into the discussion now. Since they tried and failed to cover it up, then tried to make it all better by coercing their adult daughters to discuss the abuse on national TV, it’s in the public domain. If Josh’s team is relying of proof of good character as his primary defense, the prosecutors should be allowed to bring it up as counter evidence.

[Mama Mia]

20 minutes ago, mpheels said:

This is where JB&M’s handling of the molestation will come back to bite them.  If they had gone through proper channels and sought real help for Josh, the behavior probable would never be public domain, and there would be real legal arguments against bringing his juvenile record into the discussion now. Since they tried and failed to cover it up, then tried to make it all better by coercing their adult daughters to discuss the abuse on national TV, it’s in the public domain. If Josh’s team is relying of proof of good character as his primary defense, the prosecutors should be allowed to bring it up as counter evidence.

Well…. If they’d gone through proper, official channels it probably would have come up - just sooner rather than later so we likely never would have heard of them outside of the 1st special or two. 

[BensAllergies]

14 minutes ago, mpheels said:

Since they tried and failed to cover it up, then tried to make it all better by coercing their adult daughters to discuss the abuse on national TV, it’s in the public domain.

When I read that they plan to use testimony that he was “investigated for, admitted to, and received counseling for” what he did in 2002-2003, my first thought was to wonder if Jill is planning to be a witness for the government. But I don’t think it has to come to that. JB himself is on video saying that it was “just” touching over clothing, isn’t he? The motion spells out how that is a crime in Arkansas. They said it is defined as sexual assault in the second degree.

 

[Chickenbutt]

Document 66 talks about Covenent Eyes which makes me wonder if Anna will be called to testify about her understanding of Covenent Eyes, why they have it, who suggested it and any alerts she has EVER received. 

 

 

[BensAllergies]

2 hours ago, Chickenbutt said:

If allowed, can you link the Reddit Doc Dump. I can never find anything on Reddit Thank you. 

 

I found it but would prefer not to link it. Some of the top comments discuss why that one witness was incarcerated and what his crime was. It was pretty sad to read and I was not expecting it. I don’t know anything about the Williams family but apparently they are/were big in IBLP according to the Reddit comments. The witness is a member of that family.

Edited November 4, 2021 by BensAllergies

[EyesOpen]

Proof of good character??? My head just nearly exploded.

[Queen Of Hearts]

2 hours ago, BensAllergies said:

This is the link to the documents. Please note that #68 needs major content warnings.

https://www.courtlistener.com/docket/59871253/united-states-v-duggar/

The last part of the background section... Wow.  Those poor girls. 

[Antimony]

2 hours ago, BensAllergies said:

When I read that they plan to use testimony that he was “investigated for, admitted to, and received counseling for” what he did in 2002-2003, my first thought was to wonder if Jill is planning to be a witness for the government. But I don’t think it has to come to that. JB himself is on video saying that it was “just” touching over clothing, isn’t he? The motion spells out how that is a crime in Arkansas. They said it is defined as sexual assault in the second degree.

I imagine they could subpoena either the people that worked at Jesus Camp for Adults or whatever the hell place they sent him to, or acquire the records that note he was there. 

1 hour ago, Chickenbutt said:

Document 66 talks about Covenent Eyes which makes me wonder if Anna will be called to testify about her understanding of Covenent Eyes, why they have it, who suggested it and any alerts she has EVER received. 

Anna's not ending up on the stand. She has spousal privilege so she doesn't have to testify against him, and having her testify for him is foolish.

[Chickenbutt]

@AntimonyI was wondering more for factual information. What is her understanding of Covenent Eyes? How did she come to have it? Has she ever received an alert? Nothing specific about Josh, tho I guess how and why she has it would be testifying against Josh. 

 

 

[socalrules]

I highly doubt the court is going to allow any talk of the CSA of his sisters to come in at trial. It’s not relevant to the instant case as this is about Josh and videos/images, not actually touching anyone. The defense will rightly move to exclude and it will likely be granted. He is not on trial for what he did to his sisters and the family friend. Nor was he ever convicted of doing anything. Judges like to keep the case tight to the issue at hand. That is how it should be. Plus, bringing in what happened when he was younger definitely raises an appealable issue. Now, should he be convicted, that type of evidence could come in during sentencing to show he has a pattern of behavior. It really doesn’t matter what the prosecution or defense wants to bring in at trial if the judge doesn’t believe it is relevant, is not more probative than prejudicial or if it will confuse the jury. You can’t throw in the kitchen sink at trial. 
 

This trial is going to be a lot more boring that people are hoping. No one exciting will take the stand. I don’t believe Josh will take the stand. That’s too much of a risk. It’s going to be a lot of tech stuff. The updates will likely put us to sleep for the most part.