Josiah & Lauren 18: Still Only A Single Arrow in the Quiver

[Jana814]

5 hours ago, front hugs > duggs said:

Additionally to what @meee said, even Orthodox Jews believe in not having more than you can handle (that's been my experience at least), and so for instances of financial stability, as an example, it would NOT be encouraged to have more children just for the sake of being fruitful.

I have a new dog client they are Modern orthodox (wife & daughter both wear pants) & they have 3 kids.  I did some Facebook searching & the couple both come from families of 3 kids. They probably felt 3 was the perfect number of kids. Also after spending time at their house if they had another child their wouldn’t be enough room. 

[AussieKrissy]

Have we seen this image before? It’s seems like it was taken the time when joy and Jessa also had a shoot. I marked up Bella’s face in case the Insta page I got it from got it somewhere private. Hence why we haven’t seen it. 

[meee]

On 12/1/2021 at 2:33 PM, meee said:

I can only speak for Jews, but no, Orthodox Jews don’t call themselves Quiverfull. And, actually, most of them do use birth control, including hormonal. It’s rare for Jews to have spacing like say Chelsy or Courtney—they almost always use birth control for the first six months at least, and standard spacing seems to he 18-24 months between kid. And a Jewish woman might stop altogether at 35 or 38 or 40 for fear of things like Down’s syndrome (plus already having 6-8 kids).

The reason Orthodox Jews have a lot of kids is the verse “be fruitful and multiply and fill the earth.” They are actually considered to have fulfilled the commandment to be fruitful and multiply once they have had one boy and one girl, and after that there may be even bigger spaces between kids/less reluctance to use birth control. And I actually know families with only one boy and one girl and no other kids or plans to have any more. But most don’t stop at two because of the “fill the earth” part.

I hope that explanation makes sense.

Wait, I want to add something else to this. I had said that some people stop after they have one boy and one girl, but there are also those who keep having the same gender over and over obviously. And I don’t know anybody like the Arndts; the Orthodox Jews I know who have all one gender stopped after 4-5 for the most part.

On 12/1/2021 at 2:33 PM, meee said:

I can only speak for Jews, but no, Orthodox Jews don’t call themselves Quiverfull. And, actually, most of them do use birth control, including hormonal. It’s rare for Jews to have spacing like say Chelsy or Courtney—they almost always use birth control for the first six months at least, and standard spacing seems to he 18-24 months between kid. And a Jewish woman might stop altogether at 35 or 38 or 40 for fear of things like Down’s syndrome (plus already having 6-8 kids).

The reason Orthodox Jews have a lot of kids is the verse “be fruitful and multiply and fill the earth.” They are actually considered to have fulfilled the commandment to be fruitful and multiply once they have had one boy and one girl, and after that there may be even bigger spaces between kids/less reluctance to use birth control. And I actually know families with only one boy and one girl and no other kids or plans to have any more. But most don’t stop at two because of the “fill the earth” part.

I hope that explanation makes sense.

Wait, I want to add something else to this. I had said that some people stop after they have one boy and one girl, but there are also those who keep having the same gender over and over obviously. And I don’t know anybody like the Arndts; the Orthodox Jews I know who have all one gender stopped after 4-5 for the most part.

 

edit: Sorry, don’t know why that’s in there twice and I’m having difficulty deleting it.

Edited December 4, 2021 by meee

[Nothing if not critical]

21 minutes ago, meee said:

I had said that some people stop after they have one boy and one girl, but there are also those who keep having the same gender over and over obviously.

A former teacher of mine (RE) claimed he knew an Orthodox couple who ended up with 14 girls because they so desperately wanted one of each. No idea whether that was a true story, though...

[Jana814]

I’ve mentioned this before. I had friends growing up who came from family’s with 3 kids all the same gender. I realize now as an adult a few of the might have tried for a third child in hope of getting opposite gender that they had. 

[CanadianMamam]

We have family friends who had 6 boys before getting a girl. When #3 was born, they said they would stop if he was a girl. 

I would have likely stopped at 2 if my second had been a girl, because I wanted 3 and my husband wanted 2 and if I'd had a boy and a girl, I probably wouldn't have pushed but we had two boys and I both wanted 3 kids and a girl so I pushed. 

[WannabeHistorian]

I have two cousins who tried for a boy after two girls. Both got lucky and had a boy the third time. Neither are religious, culturally Christian at most. One cousin had a pacemaker which made that pregnancy incredibly dangerous for her; she didn't have a pacemaker with her previous pregnancies. She was also in her late thirties which only upped the risk factor. While her kiddo is an adorable stinker and a joy to be around, she really risked her health by having him. The other cousin had three kids in four years, which comes with its own health risks. But I'm pretty sure she's done. 

Then there's my former teacher who had three kids because she wanted three regardless of gender. She had girl, boy, girl. People constantly assume the first two are the same gender and are shocked to learn otherwise. 

[Jana814]

One of my clients has 3 kids (girl boy boy). She had them in a 37 month span. They are now in their 20’s. I think she always wanted 3 kids because she is one of 3. I’ve seen a family picture she has hanging up that includes herself, her siblings, their parents & their kids. Her siblings also have 3 kids each. 

Edited December 5, 2021 by Jana814

[neuroticcat]

On 11/30/2021 at 3:31 PM, mpheels said:

I think there is another distinction that sets Quiverfull apart from families that have lots of babies. Quiverfull have lots of babies for the purpose of building an “Army of God.” They are literally having as many babies as possible in hopes of shifting the electorate towards Christian theocracy. That’s very different than liking kids and wanting a big family, or even choosing not to use birth control for whatever religious/cultural reason. 

Yes, this. The term is from the Psalm about the Lord giving you sons to fill up your quiver with arrows. I think the celeb fundies trot out the line “leave it up to God,” because it’s less weird than “filling your quiver with godly seed.” And then once the Duggars popularized it, it became normative for Bates and others (kind of like “dating with purpose.)” I also think there’s immense social pressure apart from religious belief - the speculation about pregnancies and the attention given. There is a proactive element to having the most babies possible that is different from, say, Catholic teaching, which primarily prohibits birth control or intervention that prevents conception. 
 

 

I am catching up on this thread but want to add another theory for Josiah and Lauren going offline. I sometimes see serious conservative Christian influencers “step back” for a season - usually they reference humility or time management or focus issues. 

I like to think that Josiah is exiting. I remember there were a few show seasons where he was mid/late teens and rarely on the show. When he was, he gave off surly teen vibes, which I thought was a really hopeful thing.

[Sullie06]

On 12/4/2021 at 12:15 PM, Jana814 said:

I’ve mentioned this before. I had friends growing up who came from family’s with 3 kids all the same gender. I realize now as an adult a few of the might have tried for a third child in hope of getting opposite gender that they had. 

My best friend and her husband did this. They had two girls and decided to try for a third in hopes of having a boy. They agreed they were comfortable having 4 kids max and if they ended up with 4 girls, 4 girls it would be. Their third was a boy so they stopped at that point. 

[fluffernutter]

We had two girls and decided to have one more baby. Not gonna lie, we were a tad disappointed to find out another sister was on the way. We went shopping after the ultrasound and got some cute baby girl outfits and decided to name her after my grandmother who had recently passed. By the time we were home we were super excited to be a family of all girls. And now I couldn’t even imagine it any other way. 💕

[SassyPants]

My husband’s siblings had a Christmas gathering this weekend. One of the families only has daughters (3), and their first 3 grandkids were all boys. 2 girls have since been added. The oldest boy is 7 and the youngest GD is 2. My SIL admitted that although she had always wanted a boy, she now knows that girls were more her speed. 

[Jana814]

When my parents first moved from NYC to New Jersey back in 1974 they lived next a family who had 4 daughters.  Their mother admitted to my mother that they went for a 3rd & 4th child in hopes for a boy but that didn’t happen. 3 of the 4 daughters have children for a total of 10 in next generation. Of those 10 8 of them are boys. 2 of the sisters live in the same town they grew up in & their kids are close in age. The kids went to middle & high school together. The 4 sisters don’t have first cousins (the parents each have/had a brother but they never married). So the 3 that have kids gave their kids something they didn’t have first cousins. 

Edited December 6, 2021 by Jana814

[Sullie06]

So my husband's father is the second oldest of 5, of which 4 have kids.  My husband and his siblings/cousins go in the this order:

Female, Female, Male, Male, Female, Female, Female, Male.

Only my husband and I and two of his female cousins have children at this point. Out of our kids its: Female, Male, Female, Female, Female, Female. My poor son HATES family gatherings because he's the only boy and the next closest in age is my husbands cousin who is 21.  

[just_ordinary]

It’s certainly interesting how the odds play out. In my friends group everyone had a girl. That’s four. We are the only ones adding a boy now after our daughter. And he will very probably stay the only boy because I think we are all done for good. In my husband’s family, our daughter is the only girl between four (soon five) boys.

I must admit I was shocked. Even tough the chances are 50/50. It seems same sex siblings are far more the norm in the last years? Or maybe it just feels like it? They are everywhere really. Or maybe because I see more people with three children again and so there is always two of one at least?

We never felt we needed one of each. Instead I realised deep down I was convinced we would of course have two girls. It still feels weird, even though we are way more excited about a second child in general (it’s the fourth pregnancy) and don’t really think it matters what sex. 

[sableduck]

My parents had 8 daughters. No sons.

Now they have more grandsons than granddaughters.

[Jana814]

1 hour ago, sableduck said:

My parents had 8 daughters. No sons.

Now they have more grandsons than granddaughters.

That’s was the case with the family I mentioned in my other post. Except they had 4 daughters. One of the daughter’s has 5 kids her kids are 4 boys & 1 girl. I think she had the last 2 in hopes of having another girl. 

 

I know of someone else who has 5 kids. 2 girls & 3 boys. Her older 4 kids were born in 01,03,05, & 07. Then she & her husband had a surprise child in 2015. They were surprised but thrilled because it was another girl but would have been just as happy if it was a boy. 

[kmachete14]

I'm oldest of 5. Two daughters and then 3 boys in a row.  I always wonder if my parents had one more would it have been a baby sister! And it's funny how if they stopped at today's average (2 kids) they'd have just had "all girls." 

I have a daughter and have a weird feeling the next one will be a girl too. 

[JermajestyDuggar]

I’m the only girl in my house. Even the cat is a boy 😽

[SassyPants]

I only have brothers, and they only have sons. So my daughter is the oldest grandchild and only girl. She has 1 brother and 5 male cousins on my side of the family. She does have a daughter, her only child.

[mango_fandango]

My mum has one older sister, my dad has two younger sisters. I’m the oldest grandchild on both sides and the only girl. I have a younger brother, my mother’s sister has two boys, and then my dad’s sisters have one boy each. 

[mstee]

I have two girls (what I had hoped for!) and would love a third (another girl would be awesome) but my husband is done, which I get. But I can’t tell you how many comments I get asking if we will try for a boy next or if my husband is disappointed to only have girls. Ugh. 

[Jewels64]

I have 5 kids. My oldest is a girl and we had 4 boys. I secretly hoped that 4 and 5 would be girls but like others have stated,  I love my crew and can’t imagine my family any other way. My daughter loves being the only girl and owns it! 😂

[EyesOpen]

I’ve said before that we have three kids and it seems to be the magic number for people to assume you’re ‘trying’ for one thing or another. We have two lovely boys, we wanted a third child… we picked a boy and girls’ name and we assumed kinda that they would be a boy because it’s what we were used to… but she is a girl. I’m happy and thankful for each of my kids. I wasn’t trying for a specific sex… i was not disappointed that my middle son was a boy… just happy for healthy babies and now healthy, happy and somewhat demanding children. I think I read somewhere this is the first of so many things you can’t control with your kids… 

 

[Mrs Ms]

30 minutes ago, EyesOpen said:

I’ve said before that we have three kids and it seems to be the magic number for people to assume you’re ‘trying’ for one thing or another. We have two lovely boys, we wanted a third child… we picked a boy and girls’ name and we assumed kinda that they would be a boy because it’s what we were used to… but she is a girl. I’m happy and thankful for each of my kids. I wasn’t trying for a specific sex… i was not disappointed that my middle son was a boy… just happy for healthy babies and now healthy, happy and somewhat demanding children. I think I read somewhere this is the first of so many things you can’t control with your kids… 

 

This! My middle kid isn’t a fucked up order, but the second of 3 kids I/we wanted! The third isn’t the last because we ticked the 2 gender boxes off the list, but the planned third of three!