Josiah & Lauren 18: Still Only A Single Arrow in the Quiver

[Mama Mia]

41 minutes ago, SassyPants said:

Personally, I think every single one of them was fine selling their privacy to JB for the easy ride and Banko, caro, houseo Duggar. Even Derick has benefited greatly. But once the shite hit the fan, some decided that privacy was best. It might just take some of us some time to cut them slack- 

ETA- If they want privacy they had best notify the TTH and all adjacent parties- they are the individuals blowing it. 

I think it’s important to remember that only one person in their Family  has been convicted of possessing really, extremely, vile CSAM.
That person isn’t Lauren. It isn’t Josiah. It isn’t Jana or Jessa or Jill or Derick or Jeremy or ANY of them.  That was Josh. That is who deserves the blame. There are definite legitimate criticisms to be leveled at his parents, and his wife, and their interactions and responses. There are definitely criticisms to be made of the  creepy belief system that certainly didn’t help in this situation. But it is hardly reasonable to expect the siblings and their spouses to either hide in shame -or put themselves out there publicly- based on the crimes of one brother. Their lives should change as little or as much as each of them feels comfortable with.

[Pecansforeveryone]

We don't really know that they were fine and happy with selling their private lives for a quick buck. Josiah was raised in a cult where the almighty patriarch is a mini-god. I will go one step further that Josiah was the family scapegoat if there was a scapegoat in the Duggar family. I can grant Josiah enough grace of needing a couple years to back away from JB's circus. 

[WannabeHistorian]

Given the steps they've taken to ensure their privacy. I think it is inappropriate to be discussing this potential pregnancy. Josiah didn't choose his parents, nor did Lauren. They have as much a right to privacy as all of us. I must admit that I'd love to hear from them on occasion, just to see where they are theologically. They seem to be drifting away from the cult as of now. It'll be interesting to see where they are in a few years.

[SassyPants]

4 hours ago, Mama Mia said:

I think it’s important to remember that only one person in their Family  has been convicted of possessing really, extremely, vile CSAM.
That person isn’t Lauren. It isn’t Josiah. It isn’t Jana or Jessa or Jill or Derick or Jeremy or ANY of them.  That was Josh. That is who deserves the blame. There are definite legitimate criticisms to be leveled at his parents, and his wife, and their interactions and responses. There are definitely criticisms to be made of the  creepy belief system that certainly didn’t help in this situation. But it is hardly reasonable to expect the siblings and their spouses to either hide in shame -or put themselves out there publicly- based on the crimes of one brother. Their lives should change as little or as much as each of them feels comfortable with.

The people who are hiding in shame are THEM. They have made that choice. I think if you want privacy as an adult, you start making more private and independent adult decisions. Of course that means cutting off Bank O’JB, and getting a job, paying for housing, insurance, food, transportation… Do I think most of these people are in for a rude awakening? Yep, but they’re all adults, most of them are responsible for minors and need to figure it out. And again, it’s hard to hide Pregnancy  after pregnancy after pregnancy. Unfortunately for most women there are signs-

 

3 hours ago, WannabeHistorian said:

Given the steps they've taken to ensure their privacy. I think it is inappropriate to be discussing this potential pregnancy. Josiah didn't choose his parents, nor did Lauren. They have as much a right to privacy as all of us. I must admit that I'd love to hear from them on occasion, just to see where they are theologically. They seem to be drifting away from the cult as of now. It'll be interesting to see where they are in a few years.

So when an obviously PG woman is photographed at a family event and it’s posted on a public IG account, people are supposed to ignore the photo in the name of privacy? Seriously folks? How ridiculous!

4 hours ago, Pecansforeveryone said:

We don't really know that they were fine and happy with selling their private lives for a quick buck. Josiah was raised in a cult where the almighty patriarch is a mini-god. I will go one step further that Josiah was the family scapegoat if there was a scapegoat in the Duggar family. I can grant Josiah enough grace of needing a couple years to back away from JB's circus. 

Did they take money, houses, cars ???   

[marmalade]

Josiah doesn't live in a JB owned house. I think he's the only one (Dillards aside) that isn't in a Duggar-owned place. Or former Duggar property (Joy and Jessa fall in this category).

[breakfree]

8 hours ago, SassyPants said:

Personally, I think every single one of them was fine selling their privacy to JB for the easy ride and Banko, caro, houseo Duggar. Even Derick has benefited greatly. But once the shite hit the fan, some decided that privacy was best. It might just take some of us some time to cut them slack- 

ETA- If they want privacy they had best notify the TTH and all adjacent parties- they are the individuals blowing it. 

And you truly don't think there's any possibility that some of them were relieved when the show ended, and even if they weren't, that after some time and reflection people (especially young people at least some of whom may have taken for granted that this was the only option for how to live their life and every single one of whom was controlled and emotionally abused by their father)  can change their opinions and ways of thinking?

You're showing very little kindness and grace. These people have some repugnant beliefs but they have the same capacity to change their minds about things as you or I. Or maybe you think no one ever changes direction in life?

Additionally as someone who was mistaken for pregnant and greatly humiliated by it I take strong objection to your repeated insistence that Lauren is 'obviously' pregnant.

[just_ordinary]

At this point I can not take the criticism about pregnancy speculation serious anymore. People are discussion the need for better bras (hello? How mean is that on the body scrutiny scale???), how people should do this and that style wise to look better/younger/older, criticise people for wearing glasses when part of the wedding party (one of my biggest WTF moments), intensively speculate about the sex life of internet strangers- in quite some detail non the less, discuss happily the behaviour, looks and start of courtship/dating life of minors (that certainly didn’t decide to be in the public eye either) and take great pride in sleuthing on the internet (I would call it actually stalking/doxxing in quite some instances) about every single person that appears to stand 5cm too close to a single fundie. Those people didn’t choose to be in the public eye either but no one has a problem talking and researching them and their family friends. I mean, sorry it doesn’t get much more intrusive and is sometimes a bit worry some in it’s intensity. If I stumble on any of your public profiles or see you tagged in a photo on some account I follow and show the same behaviour, and even document it on some random forum- I don’t think any of you would think that’s ok. 
But with pregnancy speculation, suddenly the moral police shows up.

Edited January 10, 2022 by just_ordinary

[breakfree]

2 hours ago, just_ordinary said:

But with pregnancy speculation, suddenly the moral police shows up.

I know this wasn't explicitly directed at me but I want to clarify speaking for myself only I don't criticize speculation as regards the women in the cult who are holding themselves out as public figures and paragons of the virtuous life. Those people are building a public brand on their pregnancies and while speculating may or may not be the right thing to do I certainly don't believe they deserve any protection from speculation. Lauren and Josiah specifically seem to be making a genuine 100% best effort not to be public figures.  I do believe that as regards her specifically it's not kind or appropriate to speculate regarding a pregnancy that either she doesn't want to announce or doesn't even exist.

[ExTeach713]

7 hours ago, marmalade said:

Josiah doesn't live in a JB owned house. I think he's the only one (Dillards aside) that isn't in a Duggar-owned place. Or former Duggar property (Joy and Jessa fall in this category).

I thought Joy and Austin live in a home they purchased and renovated.

[just_ordinary]

3 hours ago, breakfree said:

I know this wasn't explicitly directed at me but I want to clarify speaking for myself only I don't criticize speculation as regards the women in the cult who are holding themselves out as public figures and paragons of the virtuous life. Those people are building a public brand on their pregnancies and while speculating may or may not be the right thing to do I certainly don't believe they deserve any protection from speculation. Lauren and Josiah specifically seem to be making a genuine 100% best effort not to be public figures.  I do believe that as regards her specifically it's not kind or appropriate to speculate regarding a pregnancy that either she doesn't want to announce or doesn't even exist.

BIB: but that’s true for many of the people that get investigated and found out about here. People that just show up on the feed/in videos of our Fundies, just like those pictures of Josiah and Lauren. And it should compare to all minors or at least u16 as well. Hell, people use all resources available if people after they realise strangers start looking for them online set their website/profile/blog on private and still try to get more information. 
Lauren had one miscarriage, she very openly and extensively grieved for. We had tons of discussions here and in many countries very publicly in last 4 years, about how incredibly (sadly) common that is and that there shouldn’t be a taboo about the topic. We have no idea if something went wrong, there is a baby or the baby if still to come or if she just carried a ballon under her top/gained weight very local. But it’s also not exactly insensitive to talk about it here. They protected themselves against endless streams of comments to them by shutting their SM down. People definitely shouldn’t be intrusive to them and bother them about it. But we are absolutely fine to discuss just as intrusive and sensitive topics about others on here. People that put themselves out there and enough that didn’t. I don’t see the difference. 

[Shouldabeenacowboy]

FWIW, I have a pretty "old school" take on other people's pregnancies', babies, etc. in real life, or on the internet. If the parents haven't announced it, I don't acknowledge it/it doesn't exist. Once parents feel comfortable/announce, I am very happy for them and wish them all the best. 

That also goes for interruptions of pregnancies, whether voluntary or not. I pretty much defer to how much/how little the parents want to disclose and when, and comment/discuss/acknowledge accordingly and supportively.

[WannabeHistorian]

17 hours ago, SassyPants said:

So when an obviously PG woman is photographed at a family event and it’s posted on a public IG account, people are supposed to ignore the photo in the name of privacy? Seriously folks? How ridiculous!

Yes! Because they haven't announced the pregnancy yet, if there even is one. I genuinely don't understand why that is so hard to understand? They clearly don't want to share it with us otherwise they would have posted on sm about it. As I said before, Josiah didn't choose to be a Duggar, and Lauren may not have had any choice in marrying Josiah. This treatment of them is straying dangerously close to the "sins of the father" crap IBLP preaches. Josiah isn't JB or Josh. He has done nothing wrong and deserves the same level of respect as anyone else. 

This is a personal aside, but I think we should be especially careful with how we discuss Lauren given the way the wider snark community has treated her over Asa. So many lines were crossed and I have no doubt it got back to her. But this is merely my opinion and others don't have to do as I do.

[marmalade]

17 hours ago, ExTeach713 said:

I thought Joy and Austin live in a home they purchased and renovated.

They "bought" their home from JB. 

[Sullie06]

I have to agree. Josiah did not ask to be thrust into the spotlight and at this point in his life, whether he toed the line in the past willingly or forcefully, he and Lauren have chosen to pull back their social media presence. They are adults, they have made a choice, and if they don't want to announce any future pregnancies, then that is their right and we should respect that. When they show up with a newborn, we will know she had in fact been pregnant. 

When I was pregnant with Sullie #2 I didn't make any sort of "announcement" until I was 26 weeks along. Now I'm not a "famous" reality star so I'm sure literally nobody cared but our families and friends knew.  I had had a loss two months before I conceived and then lost Sullie #2's twin early in my pregnancy so I just didn't want to make a big deal about it when we had just experienced so much loss. Once I really started to show and people were starting to notice we did a little blurb on social media and that was that. 

[SassyPants]

For all those in the back, I will repeat, in the past I  have never speculated about any person’s confinement state, ever. I’m with ordinary on this one though, it seems all of a sudden it’s shameful to be discussing a possible  pregnancy in a member of a fertility cult? Since when? If Lauren is PG  this is nothing for her to be ashamed of, and I, for one, wish them a healthy pregnancy. Also, I applaud them for going private. Now if I was very vested in my privacy, I would ask others not to post photos of me on their public SM sites. This would especially be true if I belonged to a large, well known family. It has to be hard to have made a living off a public presence yet crave privacy. 

[AprilQuilt]

19 minutes ago, SassyPants said:

For all those in the back, I will repeat, in the past I  have never speculated about any person’s confinement state, ever. I’m with ordinary on this one though, it seems all of a sudden it’s shameful to be discussing a possible  pregnancy in a member of a fertility cult? Since when? If Lauren is PG  this is nothing for her to be ashamed of, and I, for one, wish them a healthy pregnancy. Also, I applaud them for going private. Now if I was very vested in my privacy, I would ask others not to post photos of me on their public SM sites. This would especially be true if I belonged to a large, well known family. It has to be hard to have made a living off a public presence yet crave privacy. 

but you are still saying that we should essentially victim blame, that whatever these individuals do to maintain their privacy it's not enough. You come back to this topic quite frequently and it always essentially boils down to the argument that if the kidults didn't want to have all their personal business raked over by snarkers, they shouldn't have appeared on a TV show as minors. SiRen are no longer on TV, they have no meaningful social media presence, they don't do anything to put themselves in the public eye. And now at family events the onus should be on them to make sure they aren't photographed? They are very clearly living a private life, they are inviting none of this attention. But they should once again be modulating their perfectly reasonable behaviour because strangers on the internet are obsessed with screenshotting their back of their head in an instagram story.

Obviously I am an FJ-er and I enjoy the snark community, but WRT the privacy-seeking Duggar kidults if anyone needs to alter their behaviour/attitude, it's us*, not them. Tracking down info on people who did not invite the attention is sometimes beneficial in revealing fundie hypocrisy/even lawbreaking, extending it to just any old schmo minding their own business feels... off. Our only interest in SiRen is that Josiah is JB's son - they don't give us anything more than that. If we can move towards 'huh, looks like Lauren may be pregnant again, hope she's getting decent medical care *shrug*' and focus on the individuals who are active and noisy in spreading their damaging message, that would be vastly preferable.

 

*snark in general

[SassyPants]

If we don’t follow them in person (I don’t and never have) and our only personal connection is through other Duggars’ IGS or media sites, Do you think this thread should be eliminated in the best efforts for privacy, so that we no longer speak about Lauren and Josiah ? Where’s the line? Are we perpetuating anti privacy measures by discussing them at all?

[AprilQuilt]

I think it's fine how it is - that we create threads for the kidults at the point they marry and can be assumed to have taken their own place in the world outside of JB's umbrella, and for those threads to either be lively as they put themselves and opinions on social media; or to die a quiet death as they fade into insignificance. This thread is basically doing that. Same with JD's. The girls' are busier because they actually put stuff out there and they are better known to us having been focal on Counting On.

It's fine to note when they announce the birth of a child, or Lauren gets a new hat, or ,more to the point when they are found to be embezzling money, picketing abortion clinics, or being hypocritical dangerous dickheads of any flavour. But, the point of FJ is to expose the damage that fundamentalism does, and if they are keeping their heads down they shouldn't really be any of our concern beyond a passing flicker of 'they used to be on TV'. They have a right to privacy and all their behaviour suggests a desire for that privacy. So yeah, I think they should be permitted to boringly get on with their lives and attend family events etc, and for us to have the critical faculties to recognise what activities of theirs are and aren't noteworthy.

Basically I am here to hold these people accountable for their shit, not to go after them when they haven't provoked it.

[SassyPants]

I’m thinking there will be little need for a thread if they have no media presence. Has Lauren publicly spewed crap in the past? I know she had some questionable/ unusual behaviors on camera (the show), but maybe those were egged on or encouraged … other than the Asa cake at the baby’s shower, I don’t remember too many conversations about Lauren.

[Sullie06]

The problem with pregnancy speculation for me is that were not snarking on something that was said or some action that was performed by a fundie but instead literally critiquing a woman's body. From my travels around this site, body shaming is not accepted. I've seen people stand up for Smuggar when his weight is brought up. I've seen people defend David Rodriquez. The honest truth is, yes it is very likely she is pregnant, or.... maybe she has something else going on. Maybe she's gaining weight after starting a medication for some reason, maybe it's a hormonal issue, maybe it's simply poor clothing choices. Who knows. Like I said before, when she shows up with a newborn or makes an announcement, then we will know. 

[neuroticcat]

Meh, I think noting that someone looks pregnant is a different category from zooming on on someone’s watch to get a date and then cyberstalking photos to dive deeper. 

I think everyone (famous or not) on public social media should know that there could be creepers out there combing over their photos and lives. They take that accountability on when creating public profiles. But it’s up to us how far into the creeper category we want to go.

I like FJ best because it is a place where people understand the toxic themes of fundamentlism - it is full of interesting opinions and therapeutic (for me) conversations. Sometimes it’s also really really funny - because of poster’s good sense of humor AND because fundiedom is full of the ridiculous. But, personally, I can always tell when I’m too far over the line from conversation about those things to creeping on the people themselves, because I lose sight of the “famous” person’s humanity. 

Edited January 13, 2022 by neuroticcat

[Meggo]

I kind of just assume she's pregnant because - well - they seem to DO that a lot, these Duggars. They have a LOT of babies in rapid fire. If she's not - GREAT - because I think that will give her time to enjoy the kiddo she has, enjoy her little family etc. I honestly do NOT know how Kendra does it. Maybe because I didn't become a mom at - what - 19? But I know I do not have the patience for ALL those kids in rapid fire like that. Maybe she's got tons of family help, maybe her standards are lower, maybe she didn't also care about "Kendra time" (ie - getting to shower alone or eat with two hands or having a cup of coffee that was hot all the way through - which was what I asked for on my first Mother's Day - all three of those) but ... man - that's just TOUGH. 

 

[Idlewild]

Of all the Duggar sons (we know the daughters didn’t stand a chance), the only one the Duggars risked sending to Crown College was Joe, not Josh, not Josiah. Did Joe even last a year there? The parents must have figured he was the least likely to stray and they were right, he married a young woman from a fundie family and set about producing children. We also know when Joy had doubts about her parents beliefs, it was Joe that talked her round.

These kids have been brought up in an echo chamber- surrounded by carefully selected friends who hold the same beliefs. Any outside influences are discouraged and their lack of education stunts their intellectual curiosity.

Anyone who disagrees is either sent by Satan or simply jealous. If you have had everything provided for you- house, wife, job, and then find yourself wanting to question the beliefs but with no way to keep said wife and now child then perhaps your only form of protest is privacy.

I’m not saying Josiah has become some sort of liberal thinker, I’m sure he still holds plenty of ultra conservative views, but he is the father of a little girl and he may have seen and heard enough to know he can’t do the Duggar charade any more. That doesn’t mean he is going to drop his siblings- the only friends he has known - but it does mean he has more self respect and respect for his wife and daughter than most of his siblings. I hope that is the case.

[clueliss]

I believe from following members of the Bates family that Crown College has some sort of Bible certificate. My suspicion has been for a while that that is what Joe pursued well there and also that he was getting to know one of the Bates girls and the whole thing failed.

[RosyDaisy]

I would like to remind everyone that we are talking about hateful people who are actively working to strip others of their rights and to create a theocracy.  But do go on about that deserves kindness, grace, and sympathy.