Coronavirus 5: Let the Vaccination Begin

[Ozlsn]

38 minutes ago, Bluebirdbluebell said:

I'm so angry about this. This is a horrible decision. Letting all Americans walk around without masks INDOORS! F^^k the CDC! It's only for fully vaccinated people, but how much do you want to bet anti-vaxxers won't care? This is really stupid and short-sighted for the CDC! We haven't had a chance to vaccinate the children yet! What are they thinking?

It is another political decision from what i can see. Looking at the graphic in the article the percentage of vaccinated people across the states ranges from 26% to 47+%. The CDC has said local public health offices should respond to local conditions, but I don't think that's what people are going to hear. 

For me 47% is still too low to essentially be saying "return to normal life" - I would have aimed for 70% or higher and a progressive roll back. 

Meanwhile we're not even anywhere near 26% and discussing borders remaining shut till next year. Sigh.

[ADoyle90815]

I don't care what the CDC says, I'm fully vaccinated and will still wear masks indoors in public because there are still people who haven't been vaccinated. The thing I like about masks is that I haven't had a single cold since mask guidelines were put in place. As of now, I don't think California will lift the mask mandate before June 15th, when all other Covid restrictions are lifted.

The good thing with the Phizer vaccine is that now my 13 year old niece will be able to get her first shot most likely next week, and she'll be fully vaccinated before the 4th of July.

[church_of_dog]

3 hours ago, louisa05 said:

My hillbilly anti-vax relatives are literally discussing that they’re going to have to start wearing masks because they think vaccinated people are somehow going to pass (imaginary) side effects to them. So there is that. 

Ooh -- spread the rumor that one can "catch" the vaccine by being around vaccinated folks, but -- they can protect themselves against that by wearing a mask...  ?

------

From what I've read, the new guidelines about relaxing mask rules are primarily for the psychological benefit of gaining/regaining the trust of the public and countering "pandemic fatigue" so that if there is another surge down the road and tighter restrictions need to be reinstated, there is at least a chance people will comply.

Ever since being fully vaxxed, I tend to wear only* a cloth mask when indoors with unknown-status others, rather than the double-masking with cloth plus an n95 that I had been doing previously.

Where I live is low enough population density (as well as usually breezy enough) that I have rarely felt the need to wear a mask when outdoors.  We don't really have crowd events, at least not that I attend.

 

* Grammar-impaired tonight.  Yes, I do wear clothes as well. ☺️

[CTRLZero]

I’m glad mask restrictions are easing, but I still plan to keep them handy.  We should be prepared for confusion and setbacks.  It’s been a difficult year, and it’s going to take some readjustment.

@church_of_dog, I won’t say a word if all you wear is a mask!  ?

[dawbs]

As someone who works with the public...
Fuck the CDC
Fuck anyone who hesitates to pt on a mask when asked
Fuck people who are gonna lie about this shit.

These fuckers won't say "but wear a mask anyhow, because the poor schmuck who is selling you a bottle of water should NOT have to decide if you're lying or if you're just an asshole. "
Hell, I"m vaxed, the Mr. is vaxed, and they won't give me fucking guidance on what to do w/ my unvaxed kid.

Sharing information wo the correct emphasis is as bad as not sharing information.
Sharing stuff in a way it can be twisted badly is bad science too.
 

[church_of_dog]

@dawbs I keep finding myself grumbling "why can't they make it so the vaccine turns your thumbs purple, so that we can tell who's vaxxed without having to guess who's lying...

[Sarcastically spinster]

4 hours ago, Ozlsn said:

For me 47% is still too low to essentially be saying "return to normal life" - I would have aimed for 70% or higher and a progressive roll back. 

Remember that that 47% doesn't account for those who still have natural immunity.  They're estimating that as high as 20% in some areas, if I remember right.  

 

5 hours ago, louisa05 said:

My hillbilly anti-vax relatives are literally discussing that they’re going to have to start wearing masks because they think vaccinated people are somehow going to pass (imaginary) side effects to them. So there is that. 

And you're smiling and nodding and encouraging them in that belief very quietly, right?  

[sndral]

CDC has been chasing the pandemic the whole time. They really haven’t been proactive. They ignored the research about aerosol transmission for far too long https://www.bmj.com/content/370/bmj.m3206. Now they announce get vaccinated and you don’t have to wear a mask - like we are a bunch of toddlers who must be bribed to do the right thing or that wearing a mask is that hard to do. Great timing by the CDC btw when the end of masks is competing in the headlines with this today https://www.forbes.com/sites/joshuacohen/2021/05/13/covid-19-outbreak-among-8-fully-vaccinated-members-of-ny-yankee-organization-implications-for-cdc-guidance-on-masking/?sh=3ae477863412 That’s a pretty high percentage of break through cases for one sports team.

[Smash!]

Switzerland is the same. They plan to drop all restrictions as soon as everyone got offered the vaccine (without the kids). Crazy.

About breakthrough infections: They are usually mild because of the vaccination. Carmen Scheibenbogen of Charité Berlin, one of the few ME/CFS experts who runs a Longcovid consultation hour as well as a ME/CFS consultation hour said in a recent interview in the newspaper „Die Zeit“ she thinks it‘s unlikely to develop ME/CFS after a breakthrough infection. She diagnoses ME/CFS if patients have persistent symptoms more than 6 months after a Covid-19 infections. According to her, a lot of Longcovid symptoms disappear after 3 to 6 months. 
If anyone is interested in the interview pm me and I can send you the link. It‘s in German so I won‘t post it here.

This is good news I think. I am terribly afraid of Longcovid/MECFS and if the vaccination prevents this even if a reinfection occurs then I‘m good. My mom has been suffering from ME/CFS for decades now and it‘s a debilitating disease - this is why I‘m so scared of Covid.

[ADoyle90815]

Now that I've read the actual CDC guidelines, fully vaccinated people can wear masks if guidelines are in effect. As I've said, I fully plan to wear masks indoors in public places for as long as necessary even though I'm fully vaccinated.

Quote

Fully vaccinated people can resume activities without wearing a mask or physically distancing, except where required by federal, state, local, tribal, or territorial laws, rules, and regulations, including local business and workplace guidance.(CDC website)

 

Edited May 14, 2021 by ADoyle90815

[Smash!]

The new york yankees all got the Johnson & Johnson vaccine. The article in People cites „The Johnson & Johnson vaccine is "74.4% effective and 72% effective in preventing moderate to severe/critical COVID-19 occurring at least 14 days and 28 days after vaccination, respectively" in Americans, according to the FDA.“

As far as I know the mRNA vaccines are much more effective. This could explain why so many people got reinfected.

[Alisamer]

6 hours ago, ADoyle90815 said:

Now that I've read the actual CDC guidelines, fully vaccinated people can wear masks if guidelines are in effect. As I've said, I fully plan to wear masks indoors in public places for as long as necessary even though I'm fully vaccinated.

 

It kind of sounds like they're shrugging and saying to the states - "OK, you want to keep dealing with Covid? Go ahead." with a side of "see, you hesitant people wanted to stop wearing masks, but weren't willing to get the vaccine, so now you're the only people required to wear masks LOL!" Which of course disregards the number of people who are willing to happily lie about being vaccinated. 

 

7 hours ago, sndral said:

Now they announce get vaccinated and you don’t have to wear a mask - like we are a bunch of toddlers who must be bribed to do the right thing or that wearing a mask is that hard to do. 

Frankly there are millions of people in this country who basically are a bunch of toddlers. Somewhere on here someone posted an article by a guy whose entire reason for refusing the vaccine is because "it makes liberals mad". He's literally willing to risk death just to irritate people he disagrees with. 

RIght now, I'm continuing to wear masks in public, but not so much at work. All but two of our employees have been vaccinated now, and those two have actively chosen not to do so. Despite one of them being married to a nurse who has had her vaccine for months now. If they get the virus I'll be sad, but it's their choice at this point. 

And in a few months, depending on local regulations and once the majority of kids are able to be vaccinated, I'm going to probably give up on the rest of humanity and not wear masks unless they're required. Because I've done my part, I've got my vaccines, I've gently encouraged and educated, I've shared my experience, I've offered help to find appointments. At some point people have to take responsibility for their own choices and if they choose to risk Covid, so be it. They're allowed to put themselves at risk.

I feel bad for people who are immune-compromised or can't get the vaccine for whatever reason, but there's going to come a point where we have to draw the line and just let the anti-vaxx idiots sink or swim while the rest of us sit in the lifeboats and wave, since they've refused our help multiple times. I think the CDC is way early on this, I'd have preferred they wait six weeks or so until many teens had been vaccinated. 

But yeah. It's going to get to the point of "get the vaccine or don't, just don't complain if you get sick, it was your choice not to protect yourself."

I hate that I feel this way, but I am just so incredibly done. I'm done with the Trumpers, and the  conspiracy theorists, the Covid-deniers, the vaccine-hesitant and the anti-vax. If they want to eliminate themselves from the collective gene pool, so be it.

[Sarcastically spinster]

4 hours ago, Smash! said:

The new york yankees all got the Johnson & Johnson vaccine. The article in People cites „The Johnson & Johnson vaccine is "74.4% effective and 72% effective in preventing moderate to severe/critical COVID-19 occurring at least 14 days and 28 days after vaccination, respectively" in Americans, according to the FDA.“

As far as I know the mRNA vaccines are much more effective. This could explain why so many people got reinfected.

Yeah, this was what I was wondering.  That many breakthrough infections for a group that all got the J&J doesn't surprise me.  It would surprise me with one of the mRNA vaccines.  

As a side note, so far, the mRNA vaccines are showing pretty good cross-strain efficacy for the variants.  J&J and AZ not so much.  I know they've been running some trials of boosters for J&J/AZ to see if they can address the variants, and some of those have shown promise.  

6 minutes ago, Alisamer said:

And in a few months, depending on local regulations and once the majority of kids are able to be vaccinated, I'm going to probably give up on the rest of humanity and not wear masks unless they're required. Because I've done my part, I've got my vaccines, I've gently encouraged and educated, I've shared my experience, I've offered help to find appointments. At some point people have to take responsibility for their own choices and if they choose to risk Covid, so be it. They're allowed to put themselves at risk.

I lean pretty libertarian on many things.  I'm a big fan of individual responsibility, but there are situations where collective responsibility comes into play.  IMO, when it comes to diseases, barring special circumstances, it's primarily up to individuals to manage their own risk (though there's still the societal aspect of it where we should stay home if we're sick).  A pandemic of a disease where we don't have effective treatment or prevention is a special circumstance where the responsibility shifts from individual to collective.  When on a broad scale, the only option for individuals to self-manage their risk is to completely isolate from society, we can't shut down society for the sake of the reckless who want to ignore collective responsibility.  Universal masking is a relatively painless means of collective risk management.  Most of these restrictions are collective risk management.  

But once the vaccines are widely available for anyone who wants them, the responsibility for risk managements shifts to the individual.  I have a responsibility to be cautious to protect you as long as you're incapable of protecting yourself.  But once you have the choice to protect yourself or not, it's not on me any more (other than the most basic precautions like normal handwashing, etc.).  It's not my job to put forth extra effort to protect people who could be protected and have chosen not to.  They're on their own.  Collective responsibility ceases once the potential for individual responsibility begins, even if the individual chooses not to be responsible.  

The main thing I'm taking away from the CDC guidelines is that at this point, there's the data to say that my being fully vaccinated is a contribution to collective responsibility equivalent to wearing a mask.  I'll happily ditch mine as soon as my state allows.  Me wearing it in public isn't going to do much to encourage others to mask, since almost all the time when I'm in public I'm either still in scrubs from work (which means people are going to assume I'm vaccinated as a healthcare worker), or else it's going to be social settings with friends who know I'm vaccinated.  

I'm sure it's going to be a thing at work for a while still, though.  

[NotQuiteMotY]

7 hours ago, ADoyle90815 said:

Now that I've read the actual CDC guidelines, fully vaccinated people can wear masks if guidelines are in effect. As I've said, I fully plan to wear masks indoors in public places for as long as necessary even though I'm fully vaccinated.

 

I'm suddenly SO GLAD I live in a state with a mask mandate. I work with the public and am not fully vaccinated yet, and my response to the CDC recommend was, "Oh, shit." Because even though we have a mask mandate and signs everywhere telling people to cover their mouth and nose with their masks, I still have to remind people in my building to cover up with their masks. And now I get to spend my time arguing with them over whether they're vaccinated or not, too! And I know there are going to be people lying about it, because if they already don't care about public health why would they start now? At least I can fall back (for now) on the state mask mandate.

[Smash!]

A really interesting thread by José-Luis Jimenez. If you don't follow him on Twitter do it. This man knows his stuff!

1/ Our paper in @ScienceMagazine  asking for "A paradigm shift to combat indoor respiratory infection" was just published

Here the first few tweets of the thread:

Quote

2/ "There is great disparity in the way we think about and address different sources of environmental infection. Governments have for decades promulgated a large amount of legislation and invested heavily in food safety, sanitation, and drinking water for public health purposes"

3/ "By contrast, airborne pathogens and respiratory infections, whether seasonal influenza or COVID-19, are addressed fairly weakly, if at all, in terms of regulations, standards, and building design and operation, pertaining to the air we breathe."

4/ "We suggest that the rapid growth in our understanding of the mechanisms behind respiratory infection transmission should drive a paradigm shift in how we view and address the transmission of respiratory infections to protect against unnecessary suffering and economic losses."

5/ "It starts with a recognition that preventing respiratory infection, like reducing waterborne or foodborne disease, is a tractable problem." That's the core of the message: we can reduce respiratory infections a lot, but **we have to try**. So far not tried, except hospitals

[...]

7/ But it has to start with accepting that COVID-19 and most respiratory infections have important components of airborne transmission. Which has been denied since 1910, and only accepted as little as possible when undeniable (a pattern that continues for COVID-19).

 

Edited May 14, 2021 by Smash!

[dawbs]

5 hours ago, NotQuiteMotY said:

I'm suddenly SO GLAD I live in a state with a mask mandate. I work with the public and am not fully vaccinated yet, and my response to the CDC recommend was, "Oh, shit." Because even though we have a mask mandate and signs everywhere telling people to cover their mouth and nose with their masks, I still have to remind people in my building to cover up with their masks. And now I get to spend my time arguing with them over whether they're vaccinated or not, too! And I know there are going to be people lying about it, because if they already don't care about public health why would they start now? At least I can fall back (for now) on the state mask mandate.

Yeah...that was how I felt. We discussed that at my morning meeting at work.

breathed easy until 10am when they said "as of tomorrow, vaxed folks don't have to. Then July 1, you can ALL breathe on & kill each other with impunity, regardless of vax status"

 

I work where parents bring their kids. None of the kids can be vaxed yet. So I'm going to get to navigate telling 4 y.o. why the adults are making THEM mask without wearing theirs. 

Everybody in g'vt needs to take a month sabbatical and work a job they NEED to keep working directly with the public so they get what hell they just created for customer facing folks

[mango_fandango]

The thing is that I don’t think anything is going to change anti-maskers’/anti-vaxxers’ minds at this point. I mean we’ve had people literally dying of COVID, in hospital with an oxygen mask, who have been in deep denial, so making people in government (particularly Republicans) work a public-facing job isn’t going to do squat.

[HerNameIsBuffy]

5 hours ago, NotQuiteMotY said:

I'm suddenly SO GLAD I live in a state with a mask mandate. I work with the public and am not fully vaccinated yet, and my response to the CDC recommend was, "Oh, shit." Because even though we have a mask mandate and signs everywhere telling people to cover their mouth and nose with their masks, I still have to remind people in my building to cover up with their masks. And now I get to spend my time arguing with them over whether they're vaccinated or not, too! And I know there are going to be people lying about it, because if they already don't care about public health why would they start now? At least I can fall back (for now) on the state mask mandate.

Idk how those of you working with the public do it, I'm frustrated enough with just co-workers.

As of now they are on notice that regardless of the CDC we're under state mandate to wear them in the workplace.  Getting my second shot Tuesday and yesterday new guy comes in, not vaccinated, and had just flown in so planes - yikes....and constantly "forgot" he didn't have a mask on.  Actually literally told him to leave my office and to get his mask in a voice so cold my family has never heard it.

I am done with people.

[MomJeans]

I just need to vent.

My kid still can't get the vaccine- too young.  She has an, until now, manageable but severe health situation that brings with it a massive risk for Covid complications.  

I don't expect the world to protect my kid.  But it's still frustrating.  We have to pull her from public school next Fall (she was able to attend online with her regular class this year, next year no masks in person and no online option, even though there is no way elementary students can be vaccinated before school starts.) 

Her older siblings are scared for her. They will both be fully vaccinated by July, but our area is a soup of covid right now.  They attended school online this year to protect her.  One wants to stay home and homeschool with me, the other is considering living with his mom because he's too nervous about bringing Covid into the house.  I'm broken hearted about all of it. 

 (The one blessing in all of this is that my husband and his ex-wife have a great parenting relationship, and I have the most wonderful kids in the world who have never complained about keeping their younger sister safe.  We've all worked together as one team since the pandemic started.)

 

[WhatWouldJohnCrichtonDo?]

@MomJeans, I think medical situations like your daughter's are what bothers me the most about the idea of more/most/all people going maskless. People who have been vaccinated have a reasonable chance of staying uninfected. People who could get a vaccination but have chosen not to can take their chances, I guess. But what about the people with health reasons to not get the vaccine? Their best bet is continued masking or the majority of their community having immunity. I'm glad your family has pulled together so well, but I'm sorry your daughter is still at risk.

[mamallama]

12 hours ago, Smash! said:

The new york yankees all got the Johnson & Johnson vaccine. The article in People cites „The Johnson & Johnson vaccine is "74.4% effective and 72% effective in preventing moderate to severe/critical COVID-19 occurring at least 14 days and 28 days after vaccination, respectively" in Americans, according to the FDA.“

As far as I know the mRNA vaccines are much more effective. This could explain why so many people got reinfected.

Also, the local news reported that all these people are tested three times per day.  7 of the 8 positive people are completely asymptomatic.  

[MomJeans]

1 hour ago, mamallama said:

Also, the local news reported that all these people are tested three times per day.  7 of the 8 positive people are completely asymptomatic.  

Which means these are very good vaccines.  I see it as: vaccines work! Get one!  If you are part of the 15% that still get infected, you will probably be asymptomatic!  

But the people on the fence about vaccines likely see it as "oh the vaccines don't work."  It's so frustrating.

Now I know how my Great-Grandmother must have felt when the polio vaccine was invented.  Her youngest died of polio when she was only 4.  My grandpa told me that the day the newspaper announced there was a vaccine, she wept for hours and said "I would have given anything for Esther to have such a thing!"  The women didn't have a high school education, but she understood how amazing vaccinations were. 

[NotQuiteMotY]

3 hours ago, HerNameIsBuffy said:

Idk how those of you working with the public do it, I'm frustrated enough with just co-workers.

Deep breaths and reminding myself that I'm too pretty for jail, mostly.

@MomJeans, I am so glad that your family is pulling together to protect your daughter. That's a scary place to be.

[Ozlsn]

Singapore increases covid restrictions after vaccinated airport workers test positive.

Out of 28 workers testing positive 19 were fully vaccinated with either the Moderna or Pfizer vaccines. Some have been shown to have the B.1.617 variant first detected in India, which may be more contagious.

[louisa05]

On 5/13/2021 at 10:38 PM, Sarcastically spinster said:

Remember that that 47% doesn't account for those who still have natural immunity.  They're estimating that as high as 20% in some areas, if I remember right.  

 

And you're smiling and nodding and encouraging them in that belief very quietly, right?  

The loudly anti-vac ones are more distant relatives. Second and third cousins. I don’t live in Appalachia and have not seen any of them for around 25 years. I’m just reading their social media posts about it. But I’m not going to tell them they’re wrong.