8 Passengers: Youtuber's Take Son's Bed and Refuse to Give Daughter Lunch

[waltraute]

9 hours ago, clueliss said:

I'm reading a News Nation piece (it's on their front page) that states the Utah Board of Pardons and Parole will determine the exact length of their respective sentences.  

Does anyone know when the sentence length will be set or how it will be determined? This is new to me.

[marmalade]

13 hours ago, waltraute said:

Does anyone know when the sentence length will be set or how it will be determined? This is new to me.

This question was put to Emily D. Baker, who had to plead ignorance. This method of sentencing (has a name I can't recall) is fairly rare. The full sentence might not come out until they've served closer to the 4 year minimum (minus any time off for good behavior). 

[noseybutt]

9 minutes ago, marmalade said:

This question was put to Emily D. Baker, who had to plead ignorance. This method of sentencing (has a name I can't recall) is fairly rare. The full sentence might not come out until they've served closer to the 4 year minimum (minus any time off for good behavior). 

Indeterminate sentencing.  It is common in Utah and a few other states.

I personally am not a fan because the difference between 4 years and 40 years is vast and IMO should be subject to judicial oversight, not an extra-judicial committee. I am curious what other legal/law enforcement people here think. @Sullie06?

[JermajestyDuggar]

I’ll be honest. That seems rather cruel. I think people have a right to know their sentence. 

[noseybutt]

39 minutes ago, JermajestyDuggar said:

I’ll be honest. That seems rather cruel. I think people have a right to know their sentence. 

Yes.

Also, there is often not much oversight or transparency with parole boards. Their thought process can be very mysterious. Whereas there is a clear(er) record with a jury or judge.
 

ETA I wonder how the children are processing this? I mean, they could theoretically be released before they are adults. Oooof.

Edited February 21 by noseybutt

[hoipolloi]

1 hour ago, JermajestyDuggar said:

I’ll be honest. That seems rather cruel. I think people have a right to know their sentence. 

36 minutes ago, noseybutt said:

ETA I wonder how the children are processing this? I mean, they could theoretically be released before they are adults.

In this case, it seems crueler for the minor children to be left in the dark, especially if Ruby retains any parental rights.

I know that Kevin filed for guardianship but not knowing what to expect wrt Ruby's future status would be hardest on the kids.

[sndral]

15 hours ago, waltraute said:

Does anyone know when the sentence length will be set or how it will be determined? This is new to me.

Here’s a general overview of Utah’s indeterminate sentencing laws https://robinainstitute.umn.edu/sites/robinainstitute.umn.edu/files/2023-03/utah_doi_report_10_12_21.pdf

I’m not familiar w/ Utah, I do have knowledge of how the California Board of Prison terms operated in the context of parole hearings in murder cases (which are generally indeterminate sentences in CA.)

From what I’ve read, after 6 months the parole board can give Ruby & Jodi parole dates of anywhere between 4 and 30 years. What those dates are will be determined by board guidelines such as how heinous their crimes were, if there were multiple victims, their remorse, how well they’re doing in prison, etc.. The board doesn’t have to set a date at 6 months & it seems the date can be changed later. Ruby & Jodi do not have the right to counsel at their parole hearing, however their victims can provide input.

I think the theory behind indeterminate sentencing is that it provides flexibility & allows input from those actually dealing w/ the prisoner such as trained personnel like psychologists/psychiatrists re: whether the inmate is ready to be released. There’s also more nuance - for example in this case, the facts are horrific & likely justify a longer sentence than say an abuse case which arose from parental neglect due to drugs or alcohol or whatever. It also allows a longer period of parole supervision in cases of earlier release. So someone who doesn’t follow their parole terms can have their parole revoked/rescinded. In practice there’s the danger of arbitrary & unfair release decisions.
The sentence someone receives in a determinate sentencing state is usually arrived at through plea negotiations between a prosecutor & a defense attorney w/ the Judge’s final approval. In the few convictions that result from trial verdicts, the Judge decides. None of whom have any particular training or knowledge regarding recidivism. So I’m not sure determinate sentencing is much better. Even determinate sentences aren’t really fixed because of rules awarding/removing credit, as well as a period of parole w/ the possibility of returning to prison for violations of parole, so there’s an aspect of indeterminacy built into determinate sentences.

[clueliss]

Jordan & McKay had a 3+ hour live last night.  I’ve just started watching it.  And Jordan has gone through and put timestamps on the video. (Bonus, the live starts with one of their cats on the screen). 

Spoiler

 

 

[noseybutt]

1 hour ago, sndral said:

Here’s a general overview of Utah’s indeterminate sentencing laws https://robinainstitute.umn.edu/sites/robinainstitute.umn.edu/files/2023-03/utah_doi_report_10_12_21.pdf

I’m not familiar w/ Utah, I do have knowledge of how the California Board of Prison terms operated in the context of parole hearings in murder cases (which are generally indeterminate sentences in CA.)

From what I’ve read, after 6 months the parole board can give Ruby & Jodi parole dates of anywhere between 4 and 30 years. What those dates are will be determined by board guidelines such as how heinous their crimes were, if there were multiple victims, their remorse, how well they’re doing in prison, etc.. The board doesn’t have to set a date at 6 months & it seems the date can be changed later. Ruby & Jodi do not have the right to counsel at their parole hearing, however their victims can provide input.

I think the theory behind indeterminate sentencing is that it provides flexibility & allows input from those actually dealing w/ the prisoner such as trained personnel like psychologists/psychiatrists re: whether the inmate is ready to be released. There’s also more nuance - for example in this case, the facts are horrific & likely justify a longer sentence than say an abuse case which arose from parental neglect due to drugs or alcohol or whatever. It also allows a longer period of parole supervision in cases of earlier release. So someone who doesn’t follow their parole terms can have their parole revoked/rescinded. In practice there’s the danger of arbitrary & unfair release decisions.
The sentence someone receives in a determinate sentencing state is usually arrived at through plea negotiations between a prosecutor & a defense attorney w/ the Judge’s final approval. In the few convictions that result from trial verdicts, the Judge decides. None of whom have any particular training or knowledge regarding recidivism. So I’m not sure determinate sentencing is much better. Even determinate sentences aren’t really fixed because of rules awarding/removing credit, as well as a period of parole w/ the possibility of returning to prison for violations of parole, so there’s an aspect of indeterminacy built into determinate sentences.

This is such an interesting conversation and I appreciate your perspective.  My thoughts:

(1) I am somewhat familiar with California's system of using indeterminate sentencing for violent crimes. However, I have never seen it for less than 5 years per victim. (Some one please correct me on this because I may have this wrong.) In this case, that would have meant 15 years before the convicted could go before the parole board. Part of the logic of giving a decently long base sentence is to make sure the victims don't have to start paying attention to parole hearings too soon. Space for healing. With an indeterminate sentence, victims will typically be expected to provide input every time the case goes before the parole board.

(2) As far as judges and juries not having training WRT to recidivism...neither do parole boards. In most states these are political appointees. (IME most are attorneys....same as the judges.)

(3) I am a big fan of incarceration being about rehabilitation but, as a practical matter, it's not. The US has horrific recidivism data. In many states, there is very little offered in terms of education, job training, substance abuse treatment, etc.

(4) Predicting when a prisoner should be released based on behavior while incarcerated is a dicey proposition. I am not aware of any risk assessment (actuarial or structured professional judgement) that adequately predicts risk of violence in the free world based on behavior while incarcerated. There are risk assessments that moderately predict violence in the free world provided the person has recently been living in the free world and expected to manage such tasks as a job, financial independence, treatment appointments, etc. But once that person is institutionalized....the institutionalized world is too different to make many conclusions.

 

[clueliss]

The Jordan and McKay live goes thru videos of the sentencing hearings.  
 

and oh wow, the statement Ruby’s brother provided the court.  He called it a cult.  And we get confirmation that he was also treated/saw Jodi.  And that his marriage involved a separation at one point or another.  

[CTRLZero]

1 hour ago, clueliss said:

The Jordan and McKay live goes thru videos of the sentencing hearings.  
 

and oh wow, the statement Ruby’s brother provided the court.  He called it a cult.  And we get confirmation that he was also treated/saw Jodi.  And that his marriage involved a separation at one point or another.  

It was great to see Adam Steed reminding the public that Jodi did a lot of harm to many other people, and that needs to be investigated/brought to light. 

[Sullie06]

18 hours ago, noseybutt said:

Indeterminate sentencing.  It is common in Utah and a few other states.

I personally am not a fan because the difference between 4 years and 40 years is vast and IMO should be subject to judicial oversight, not an extra-judicial committee. I am curious what other legal/law enforcement people here think. @Sullie06?

Thanks for the tag. I hadn't been following this case closely, so I had to catch up. Indeterminant prison sentences are hard because there isn't a clear and define release date, just minimum and  maximum to the sentence. The actual sentence is left up to DOCCS. It's really based on how the prisoner does while incarcerated, natures of the crime and any programs the prisoner has done during incarceration and the outcome of Parole hearings. Unfortunately things such as overcrowding and merit points do count into the Parole decision. 

So obviously state to state there will be differences and I'm not in Utah but in my state when you are sentenced with a indeterminant sentence of incarceration once you serve the minimum, in this case 4 years, the Parole board will make a determination on your Parole eligibility date. At that time, once the date is reached, you can request a parole hearing but they do not have to approve your release. If Parole is not granted, a new eligibility date will be issued.  

So in essesnce, a prisioner will know the minimum and maximum dates of incarceration but the eligibility of Parole will be a rolling date. 

Edited February 22 by Sullie06

[zeebaneighba]

21 hours ago, clueliss said:

Jordan & McKay had a 3+ hour live last night.  I’ve just started watching it.  And Jordan has gone through and put timestamps on the video. (Bonus, the live starts with one of their cats on the screen). 

  Hide contents

 

 

That popped up in my recommendations all day yesterday and I kept reading it as "The Rapist Reacts."   Once I saw it that way I could not see it the correct way. 

[clueliss]

Hidden True Crime posted a video with John analyzing from the psychological perspective Ruby and Jodi re the sentencing hearings.  Almost 2 hours long.  (And if you go to about the 12 minute mark you’ll miss the sponsor ad but not really miss the subject matter )

 

Spoiler

 

 

[Howl]

On 2/21/2024 at 6:02 PM, noseybutt said:

(2) As far as judges and juries not having training WRT to recidivism...neither do parole boards. In most states these are political appointees. (IME most are attorneys....same as the judges.)

I read the bios for the members of the Utah Board of Pardons and Paroles.  They have relevant advanced degrees and decades of experience in law enforcement/prison/legal system -- several are lawyers.  I assume that all are Mormon.  Utah Board of Pardons & Parole Board Members

The judge at Jodi H's hearing was overcome for a second before he regained his composure when talking about the Franke children's abuse. My sense is that Jodi H will get a much longer sentence than Ruby F. However, the facts of the brutality of the abuse are known and Ruby was an equal partner in the abuse, so who knows. 

Ruby realizes she cannot unf**k her current situation -- she's completely lost her freedom for the foreseeable future, she'll have no motherly relationship with her children and her marriage is over.  Ruby F said in her allocution that (basically) Jodi H is a fraud who sucked her in and she has now renounced those beliefs.  Had Ruby never met Jodi,  she would have continued to be an awful, mean mom but not a nuclear grade abuser. 

Jodi H is a hard, hard woman with a cruel streak and a lot of pathologies.  I don't think she'll ever denounce her belief system. 

Hadn't thought about this 'til now.  Will Jodi H and Ruby be in the same women's prison?  That could get weird. 

 

 

 

 

 

[ifosterkittens]

8 minutes ago, Howl said:

The judge at Jodi H's hearing was overcome for a second before he regained his composure when talking about the Franke children's abuse. My sense is that Jodi H will get a much longer sentence than Ruby F. However, the facts of the brutality of the abuse are known and Ruby was an equal partner in the abuse, so who knows. 

Ruby realizes she cannot unf**k her current situation -- she's completely lost her freedom for the foreseeable future, she'll have no motherly relationship with her children and her marriage is over.  Ruby F said in her allocution that (basically) Jodi H is a fraud who sucked her in and she has now renounced those beliefs.  Had Ruby never met Jodi,  she would have continued to be an awful, mean mom but not a nuclear grade abuser. 

Jodi H is a hard, hard woman with a cruel streak and a lot of pathologies.  I don't think she'll ever denounce her belief system. 

NatalieLawyerChick (criminal defense attorney who does legal commentary on Youtube) posted this video she called "A RANT". Natalie was surprised the judge and prosecutor so thoroughly bought Ruby's apology and would not be surprised if Ruby gets less time than Jodi. The prosecutor seemed to feel Ruby should get a shorter sentence and Natalie said the parole board will likely factor that into their decision. Natalie feels Ruby should receive the same sentence as Jodi but doesn't think it will happen. Natalie agrees Jodi's lack of remorse is problematic but feels Ruby's remorse is performative and only to serve Ruby's self-interest. Natalie gives everyone the benefit of the doubt. She comes at things with an open mind and looks at the whole picture, so coming from her I was surprised she took such a strong stance. 

Ruby forever altered the lives of all her children. I bet her children will all have a "life sentence" from the trauma she chose to inflict. I do not think a lighter sentence/the minimum of four years for Ruby is justice because she simply seems sorry. 

[JermajestyDuggar]

2 minutes ago, ifosterkittens said:

NatalieLawyerChick (criminal defense attorney who does legal commentary on Youtube) posted this video she called "A RANT". Natalie was surprised the judge and prosecutor so thoroughly bought Ruby's apology and would not be surprised if Ruby gets less time than Jodi. The prosecutor seemed to feel Ruby should get a shorter sentence and Natalie said the parole board will likely factor that into their decision. Natalie feels Ruby should receive the same sentence as Jodi but doesn't think it will happen. Natalie agrees Jodi's lack of remorse is problematic but feels Ruby's remorse is performative and only to serve Ruby's self-interest. Natalie gives everyone the benefit of the doubt. She comes at things with an open mind and looks at the whole picture, so coming from her I was surprised she took such a strong stance. 

Ruby forever altered the lives of all her children. I bet her children will all have a "life sentence" from the trauma she chose to inflict. I do not think a lighter sentence/the minimum of four years for Ruby is justice because she simply seems sorry. 

I think since Ruby “performed” for so many years on her YouTube channel, it’s hard to know if her remorse is performative as well. She knows what people want to hear. And I think she can fake it. But it is hard to know what is real and what is fake when it comes to these influencers who lived their lives on camera for so long.

[ifosterkittens]

2 minutes ago, JermajestyDuggar said:

I think since Ruby “performed” for so many years on her YouTube channel, it’s hard to know if her remorse is performative as well. She knows what people want to hear. And I think she can fake it. But it is hard to know what is real and what is fake when it comes to these influencers who lived their lives on camera for so long.

You make an excellent point. I guess I'm not at a point where I'm willing to consider Ruby being truly sorry or having remorse is enough to mitigate her sentence. I've watched more lawtube than I would want to admit and plenty of people who are pleading guilty show remorse and sorrow. Sometimes it seems like they are more concerned about the reality of the punishment, ie going to jail/prison and what that means for them and their future (children, spouse, parents, job, loss of income etc) vs being truly sorry for their actions that lead to the guilty plea. In four years maybe I'd be more open in hearing what Ruby has to say. 

[Howl]

I don't think there's any possibility that Ruby will get the minimum 4-year sentence.  There will be victim impact statements that will be taken into considertation.   I'm hoping the youngest child will be grown and on his own (college, young adulthood) before there's any chance of Ruby getting out but who knows.

2 hours ago, JermajestyDuggar said:

I think since Ruby “performed” for so many years on her YouTube channel, it’s hard to know if her remorse is performative as well.

This is such a good point and one I hadn't considered since I never watched 8 Passengers.  However, she had a lot of months to sit in jail and contemplate the magnitude of what she'd done and ultimately took a plea deal where she had to admit to everything. 

Who knows if she just feels sorry for herself or truly and profoundly regrets the damage she's caused. Maybe some of both? 

[JermajestyDuggar]

6 minutes ago, Howl said:

I don't think there's any possibility that Ruby will get the minimum 4-year sentence.  There will be victim impact statements that will be taken into considertation.   I'm hoping the youngest child will be grown and on his own (college, young adulthood) before there's any chance of Ruby getting out but who knows.

This is such a good point and one I hadn't considered since I never watched 8 Passengers.  However, she had a lot of months to sit in jail and contemplate the magnitude of what she'd done and ultimately took a plea deal where she had to admit to everything. 

Who knows if she just feels sorry for herself or truly and profoundly regrets the damage she's caused. Maybe some of both? 

I think it’s natural for other humans watching this to want her to feel bad. Because it’s goes against everything inside of us to see someone abuse their kids and not feel bad about it. We can’t wrap our heads around it. Because we would feel like shit. But I don’t think it should be something judges should take into consideration. Mostly because so many people can fake it so it shouldn’t matter. Judges should make their sentences based on the evidence and the severity of the crime. Not on the way the defendant feels afterwards. 

[Howl]

13 hours ago, JermajestyDuggar said:

Mostly because so many people can fake it so it shouldn’t matter. Judges should make their sentences based on the evidence and the severity of the crime. Not on the way the defendant feels afterwards. 

I read the bios of the members of the Board of Pardons and Parole.  Collectively, they have interacted with every type of offender from every professional perspective, so they presumably can sus out performative BS from the real deal where offenders/prisoners are concerned.  The only red flag I saw was the board Chair.  He's getting some type of counseling degree from Liberty University -- maybe distance learning?  Anyway, odd choice of school to my mind.  No doubt the offender's Bishop will be consulted, because Utah, amirite?

I'd be very curious to know why six months between trial and sentencing.  Is six months the amount it takes to see how a person is actually functioning in prison?  Alternately, it's not unusual elsewhere, even in Federal cases, for a sentencing date to be set months in the future. 

[Howl]

Jessi Hildebrandt ("Healing from Aunt Jodi") was on Mormon Stories podcast today.  I'll listen to it tomorrow. 

 

[CTRLZero]

14 hours ago, Howl said:

Jessi Hildebrandt ("Healing from Aunt Jodi") was on Mormon Stories podcast today.  I'll listen to it tomorrow. 

There was not a ton of new information, but Jessi’s healing journey is of interest to me, and I’m glad they’re doing well.  Jessi had several book recommendations.  I’ve been meaning to listen to the Luna Lindsey Corbden (Recovering Agency) interviews on Mormon Stories podcast, so that’s next on my list when I can concentrate for several hours.  😁  

Just because I’m snoopy, I’d love to know what Jessi’s family, particularly parents, think about Jodi now.  Does Jessi’s dad share any of Jodi’s characteristics, etc.  

 

[JermajestyDuggar]

My guess is now that Jodi is in jail and there’s huge media attention, they’ve probably turned their backs on her. 

[Gobsmacked]

On 2/21/2024 at 10:17 PM, noseybutt said:

Yes.

Also, there is often not much oversight or transparency with parole boards. Their thought process can be very mysterious. Whereas there is a clear(er) record with a jury or judge.
 

ETA I wonder how the children are processing this? I mean, they could theoretically be released before they are adults. Oooof.

Hopefully Ruby will be given a minimum 8 years. Eve will be just 18 by then. Russell and Eve will be old enough to decide about wanting  a relationship with Ruby or not. Jodi can stay and Rot.